New Age Can Give You Spiritual Insight!

[Lulav]

Although I'm against Theophostics, I do wonder on yoga - and for that matter, other forms of exercise such as martial arts.

Just different colors of the same rainbow. They are are related, just diversified so that you aren't aware.

I'll touch too many hot-spots and desecrate too many sacred cows if I make a list of all things/practices that I know fall into these deceptions. :o

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Just different colors of the same rainbow. They are are related, just diversified so that you aren't aware.

I'll touch too many hot-spots and desecrate too many sacred cows if I make a list of all things/practices that I know fall into these deceptions. :o

I can understand how one could come to see that, although I'm concerned as to what in specific and if it always lines up. People have said the same thing about Disney movies, cartoons, comics, pyschology and all forms of exercise - including that which is natural/herbal based - are all a part of the rainbow...and all a matter of somehow glorifying the Devil.

 

[daq]

I think the theme of rebirth is consistent within what the apostles noted - as going from death to life is a change and it was a very big deal for them to note where God begot the Son in His resurrection, glorified him and rose Him up by His spirit.

The Bible says that God the Father judged his Son, Jesus the Christ, while his Son was on the cross. Christ was on the cross for six hours. The last three hours were the bad ones—for he took the judgment for mankind's sins; at the end of that period of time he voluntarily died physically. Jesus was crucified at 9:00 AM (Mark 15:25). and the land was darkened from noon until 3:00 PM (Matthew 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44)....and Matthew wrote, “Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour.” (Matthew 27: 45). Why the darkness for the second three hours on the cross? I agree with other scholars who note that the judgment was so catastrophic that the Father broke fellowship with the Son while he was bearing our sins and the sun was darkened during this time to indicate the terrible judgment and separation...and Jesus voiced this terrible separation from God the Father when he cried out to him while in darkness and on the cross: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ that is, ‘My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?’” (Matthew 27:46. Also Mark 15:34).

At the end of this terrible judgment, Jesus voluntarily gave up his life in physical death: “And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit” (Matthew 27:50. Also Luke 23:46). John was very precise when he recorded Jesus’ physical death: “When Jesus therefore had received the sour wine, He said, ‘It is finished!’ And He bowed His head, and gave up His spirit” (John 19:30, also Matthew 27:50 and Luke 23:46)---and all of that set the stage for how he would be the “first fruits of them who slept” (1 Corinthians 15:20-23), and the returning head of the church (1 Corinthians 11:26) and King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Revelation 19:11-16)

Much of it being in line with the Christus Victor viewpoint (discussed here )and the Ransom Theory...


And a spiritually dead (as in seperated from the Father) Lord is not one who ceases to be the Lord--or other logical fallacies when people assume one must believe that it's impossible for Christ, in some kind of way, to be forsaken. His spirit went to be with the Lord after He died, but at some point he was literally forsaken/cursed and experienced the Full Wrath of the Lord we deserved.

As a man, Christ walked in communion with the Holy SPirit..who empowered Him to do ministry and who He looked forward to sending after He rose so that others could have that relationship. But when He was on the Cross, even if it was for a minute, the Spirit left Him/the Father turned His face away from the Son.....as the Father cannot look upon sin. For the first time in Eternity, there was a Divine Seperation that Christ was grieved by---and yet He was accepted later. the biblical concept of "death" does not mean "ceasing to exist," but rather means "separation." Spiritual death means the separation of the spirit from God. With the spirit cut off from God, a man would still be able to function physically, but could no longer directly experience God. While Jesus hung there, God the Father reached back in time and took the spiritual death that had been generated by Adam and those who came after him and placed it on Jesus Christ. Then (because He created time and lives outside of it) God looked forward in time and took all the spiritual death generated by you and me and all the other men and women who will be born until the end of time and put that death on Jesus too.

It's amazing that Jesus cried, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?"..for He was experiencing to the fullest the spiritual death generated by countless men and women throughout the ages as the Wrath of God was poured out upon Him to bear it. He literally experienced spiritual hell on the cross as He was cut off from God, even though He committed no sin and was not deserving of death. He actually died spiritually in our place. However, after that moment, his Spirit went to be with the Lord.


One actually goes BEYOND the Lord when assuming that the Life Giving Lord is unable to do whatever it is He wishes..including taking on our sins/becoming seperated...and again, it can come off circular (i.e. "It's wrong because it's just unthinkable to see the Lord being able to DIE!!!!!"). There's the plain reality that Christ was both FULLY Human/Fully God and able to DIE. By the Logic others used, Yeshua should have never been able to die at ALL since He was God at all times...but He laid down His life in Sacrifice/was put to death in the Body---and deemed "cursed" as the scriptures plainly note. To limit what the Lord can do would be akin to saying God cannot be everywhere and do ALL things...and I don't plan on going there personally.

I don't pretend to understand the depth, height, width or breadth of what satisfaction it took God to pay for the penalty of mans sin. The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death and I agree with others who understand that to be a spiritual/physical death, a spiritual separation from the presence of God for all eternity. While I can't grasp it, I know by faith that Jesus experienced the spiritual death I should have experienced, the separation that was mine was experienced by Jesus on the cross on my behalf.

Martin Luther, “Luther on Galatians,” ( American edition, vol 26, p.278 ) says plainly that. “Our sins must be Christ’s own sin, or we shall perish eternally. The wicked sophists have obscured this true knowledge of Christ which Paul and the prophets have handed down to us.”

I see, so you do not believe the closing words of Psalm 22, (specifically Psalm 22:24) have anything to do with the opening statement of the same passage which Yeshua cries out upon the Cross? Neither do you believe his own words when he said that even if all of the disciples left him he would not be alone because the Father was with him? Or how can you then understand why the tsipporim are the undivided, (''are not two sparrows sold for a farthing?'' and for what purpose were they sold at the temple? ''Yet the one from them shall not fall into the earth without your Father'') or how then can you understand what these things imply in the understanding of passages like the Genesis 15 Covenant or Leviticus 14. You may think that none of this has any relevance to what you have said but then again you do not seem to realize that when you suggest that Yeshua became sin for you, (because of a misreading of that passage) then you also are suggesting that your Passover Lamb became your scapegoat with all the sins upon its head. And if one is eating scapegoat which he found out in the wilderness that explains much.

Psalms 22:22-26 KJV
22. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23. Ye that fear the Lord, [YHWH] praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24. For he [YHWH] hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; [Yeshua] neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I see, so you do not believe the closing words of Psalm 22, (specifically Psalm 22:24) have anything to do with the opening statement of the same passage which Yeshua cries out upon the Cross? Neither do you believe his own words when he said that even if all of the disciples left him he would not be alone because the Father was with him?

If you're going to spread a falsehood, one needs evidence of such. There was never at any point anything mentioned on not believing Psalm 22:24 and thus (again) you argue with yourself on what was not said. For the context determines meaning - and seeing that Yeshua was indeed NOT forsaken in the long scheme of things since he was redeemed, you need to do better at addressing scripture. It was already the case where the scriptures made plain Christ would become sin for us/take our place and shame - and trying to go backward to claim "Well he wasn't forsaken" doesn't make for a case.

"Forsaken" MEANS "to abandon, to leave altogether." There had to be, IMHO, a level of seperation present in order for the entire concept of being rescued to come into play...as in real seperation that took place in order for it to be understood that the Lord never abandoned him---just as a parent walking away from his or her own daughter does not mean that they've abandoned them....even though for a time, they created a seperation. For Christ to literally sweat blood in anticipation, there was something more than the mere symbolism of becoming sin that caused the Lord to ask "Please, take this cup away"---for it was not just physical death he was fearful of since he had been faced with that many times before and wasn't afraid...or filled with dread/overwhelmed with sorrow, as He said directly. Ultimately, Christ was not abandoned in the long run since he was eventually rescued. Psalm 16 is something that comes to mind, as it concerns what the Psalmist noted when it came to Psalm 16:10 with not being abandoned to the grave. Both Peter and Paul quoted this psalm when speaking of CHRIST's bodily ressurection (see Acts 2:25--28, Acts 2:31, Acts 13:35-37).

Psalm 17:15 is another one, in regards to the statement "And I---in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness."

Psalm 22 was one dealing with the reality of how suffering comes from the attacks of unscrupulous people and is intensified by the mockery of those who should feel sympathy...but the person in the Psalm, nevertheless, looks forward to vindication and joyful worship with the rest of God's people. However, in view of its prominent place within the Crucixfiction story, it's proper to see it as a prediction of the Sufferings of Jesus. Of course, some have read it as a lament in its OT context, with a fuller meaning revealed by Jesus' use of it. It is better to see this psalm as providing a lament for the innocent sufferer...and then to see how all the Gospels use this to portray Jesus as an innocent sufferer par excellence. Consider how Matthew 27 uses the psalm. Matthew 27:35 echoes Psalm 22:18 (dividing garments by lot)...and Matthew 27:35 echoes 22:7 (wagging heads)..and Matthew 27:43 echoes Psalm 22:8 (with the derisive challenge for God to rescue him.....and of course, Matthew 27:46 cites Psalm 22:1 with Jesus crying out.

Matthew presents Jesus as a thoroughly good/faithful person who is brutally and unjustly executed..and mocked by those who should have supported him. But this portrayal of Jesus in light of Psalm 22 allows Christ's followers as well to expect some kind of vindication, as vv 22-31 describe....and they are not disappointed...as they read the Hebrews account in Hebrews 2:12.

Now---with David in comparision to Jesus, remembering what the Lord said when it came to him saying in, “And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice and said, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” – which means, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34). Jesus was not merely interpreting his current circumstances according to God’s Word because this is a quote from Psalm 22...as it was fulfillment.

David when quoting the Psalm was obviously enduring some great trial-and must have been going through a rough time to say this to God...with all hope being lost. But of course David was not really experiencing being forsaken by God. For He was just feeling extreme despair at the moment of writing this

This verse is present in Psalm 22 and on Jesus’ lips because it points forward to something greater. In saying this, I say this meaning that it points forward to the One who would truthfully experience being forsaken by God, Jesus. This was not true for David, as God promised him very much (2 Samuel 7:11 ). And though going through suffering, like the Messiah to come, David gained Victory in the end. It's the entire reality of how many times God has to "lay low" in the life of a believer where it seems his back is turned on them/He chooses not to respond---and to a degree, it is....but they have not been given up on in the sense that God will not leave them where they are at. What David said in Psalm 22:1 is not a cry of Doubt but one of an urgent appeal to God. Being Forsaken is not true for us either, as God promised to always be with us (Matthew 28:19-20 / ). However, this was true for Jesus. For the One who had never before experienced seperation from God, Jesus, for the first time experienced being forsaken by God.

The main reasons, if Scripture is the FINAL answer are the following .....that we might become the righteousness of God through Him (2 Corinthians 5:21 . There was no other way....and on the issue, this tends to be where most willfully skip over what the Word says plainly.

21God made him who had no sin to be sin[] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
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This verse is one of the most important in all of Scripture for understanding the meaning of the Atonement and justification. For here we see that the one who knew no sin is Jesus Christ...and that he (God) made him (Christ) to be sin. The Greek Word is hamartia, which means that God the Father made Christ to be regarded and treated as "Sin" even though Christ Himself NEVER sinned ( Hebrews 4:14-16 , ). Further, we see that God did this for our sake--that is, God regarded and treated "our" sin (the sin of all who would believe in Christ) as if our sin belonged not to us but to Christ Himself. Thus, Christ "died for all" 2 Corinthians 5:13-15 / ...and , as Peter wrote, "He himself bore our sins in His body on a tree".1 Peter 2:23-25/

I think A.T. Robertson places it best when stating the following in their commentary on Matthew 26 with being forsaken..for as he said in Word Pictures:

Forsaken (\egkatelipes\). Some MSS. give \“neidisas\ (reproached). We are not able to enter into the fulness of the desolation felt by Jesus at this moment as the Father regarded him as sin (2Co 5:21). This desolation was the deepest suffering. He did not cease to be the Son of God. That would be impossible.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Also, in regards to what was noted with II Corinthians 5:21
[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament [/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Him who knew no sin ton mh gnonta amartian). Definite claim by Paul that Jesus did not commit sin, had no personal acquaintance mh gnonta second aorist active participle of ginwskw with it. Jesus made this claim for himself (John 8:46). This statement occurs also in 1 Peter 2:22; Hebrews 4:15; Hebrews 7:26; 1 John 3:5. Christ was and is "a moral miracle" (Bernard) and so more than mere man. He made to be sin amartian epoihsen). The words "to be" are not in the Greek. "Sin" here is the substantive, not the verb. God "treated as sin" the one "who knew no sin." But he knew the contradiction of sinners (Hebrews 12:3). We may not dare to probe too far into the mystery of Christ's suffering on the Cross, but this fact throws some light on the tragic cry of Jesus just before he died: "My God, My God, why didst thou forsake me?" (Matthew 27:46). That we might become ina hmeiß genwmeqa). Note "become." This is God's purpose ina) in what he did and in what Christ di[/FONT][/FONT]
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In becoming "Sin" for our sakes, Christ became our subsitute, thereby BORE GOD'S WRATH (the punishment that we deserve) in our place (for our sake). Thus the techincal term for this foundational doctrine----and what has been essential in the Church for ages when it comes to basic witnessing to others on the GOOD NEWS---is the Substitutionary Atonement---that Christ has provided the atoning sacrifice as "our" subsitute, for the sins of all who believe. Romans 3:12 . The background for this is Isaiah 53, from the Greek (Septuagint) translation of the Hebrew OT, which includes the most lengthy and detailed OT prophecy of Christ's death and which contains NUMEROUS parallels to II Corinthians 5:21. Isaiah's prophecy specifically used the Greek word for "Sin" (Gk, hamarita) five times...with reference to the coming Savior (the Suffering Servant) in just a few verses------e.g., "Surely he has born our griefs" (Isaiah 53:4); "He was crushed for OUR iniquities (Isaiah 53:11); "He shall bear their iniquities" ( Isaiah 53:11); "He bore the sin of many (Isaiah 53:12); "He has laid on them the iniqiuty of us all" ( Isaiah 53:6 ).

In a precise fufillment of this prophecy in Isaiah 53, Christ became "sin" for those who believe in Him, so that in Him we might become the Righteousness of God. This means that just as God imputed our sin and guilt to Christ ("he made Him to BE SIN") so God also imputes the righteousness of Christ---a Righteousness that is not our own---to all who believe in Christ. Because Christ bore the sins of those who believe, God regards and treats believers as having the legal status of righteousness...with Greek Word being "dikaiosyne".

Or how can you then understand why the tsipporim are the undivided, (''are not two sparrows sold for a farthing?'' and for what purpose were they sold at the temple? ''Yet the one from them shall not fall into the earth without your Father'') or how then can you understand what these things imply in the understanding of passages like the Genesis 15 Covenant or Leviticus 14. You may think that none of this has any relevance to what you have said but then again you do not seem to realize that when you suggest that Yeshua became sin for you

You don' =t, (because of a misreading of that passage) then you also are suggesting that your Passover Lamb became your scapegoat with all the sins upon its head. And if one is eating scapegoat which he found out in the wilderness that explains much.

Psalms 22:22-26 KJV
22. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23. Ye that fear the Lord, [YHWH] praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24. For he [YHWH] hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; [Yeshua] neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

Again, seeing that none of what you said really addresses the scripture and that you already misread numerous passages, that's your loss in lacking ability to deal with it properly

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I see, so you do not believe the closing words of Psalm 22, (specifically Psalm 22:24) have anything to do with the opening statement of the same passage which Yeshua cries out upon the Cross? .

"My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" are some of the most profondly mysterious words in all of the Bible. And in reading the text for what it is, in some sense Jesus had to be cut off from the favor of and fellowship with the Father that had been his eternally, because he was bearing the sins of his people and therefore enduring God's Wrath. (Isaiah 53:5-7 / Isaiah 53/ Romans 3:25 , 2 Corinthians 5:21 , Galatians 3:13 , 1 John 2:2 ). And yet in quoting Psalm 22:1-3/Psalm 22 Jesus probably had in mind the remainder of the psalm as well, which moves to a cry of victory in Psalm 22:21-31....and Jesus, knowing this, expresses faith, calling God "my God." As evidenced by the number of times He had warned His disciples that He'd die (Matthew 20:18-20 / /Matthew 26:1-3/ /Mark 10:32-34 / /Mark 9:31-33 / /Luke 9:44-46/ )----and by the fact that He had even hoped there'd be ANOTHER way to go about it (Matthew 26:38-40 ), surely Jesus knows why He is Dying...for that was the entire purpose of his coming to the Earth ( Matthew 16:20-22 //Matthew 20:17-19 Matthew 20 ). And surely his cry, uttered with a loud voice, is expressing, not bewilderment at his plight, but witness to the bystanders, and through them to the world., that he was experiencing God-Forsakenness not for anything in Himself....but for the salvation of others. Surely Matthew, understanding this, quotes Jesus's words to challenge his readers.

Hebrews 2:9
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Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Hebrews 2


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Andrew Murray said it best when he stated "Some men die without tasting the bitterness of death; Jesus tasted its bitterness, as the curse of sin, in full measure.".. For more in-depth info, one can look up his book entitled The Holiest of All (Tarrytown, NY: Fleming H. Revell Co.,)..and look on pp. 80-81. Also, as John Gill said on the issue when it comes to Hebrews 2:9---with the language being exceptionally strong in [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Verse 9[/FONT]:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]]that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]that is, Christ was made a little lower than the angels by becoming man, and assuming a body frail and mortal, that he might die for his church and people: to "taste death", is a Jewish phrase, often to be met with in Rabbinical writings; (See Gill on Matthew 16:28) and signifies the truth and reality of his death, and the experience he had of the bitterness of it, it being attended with the wrath of God, and curse of the law; though he continued under it but for a little while, it was but a taste; and it includes all kinds of death, he tasted of the death of afflictions, being a man of sorrows all his days, and a corporeal death, and what was equivalent to an eternal one; and so some think the words will bear to be rendered, "that he by the grace of God might taste of every death"; which rendering of the words, if it could be established, as it is agreeable to the context, and to the analogy of faith, would remove all pretence of an argument from this place, in favour of the universal scheme: what moved God to make him lower than the angels, and deliver him up to death, was not any anger towards him, any disregard to him, or because he deserved it, but his "grace", free favour, and love to men; this moved him to provide him as a ransom; to preordain him to be the Lamb slain; to send him in the fulness of time, and give him up to justice and death: the Syriac version reads, "for God himself through his own grace tasted death for all"; Christ died, not merely as an example, or barely for the good of men, but as a surety, in their room and stead, and that not for every individual of mankind; for there are some he knows not; for some he does not pray; and there are some who will not be saved: the word "man" is not in the original text, it is only () , which may be taken either collectively, and be rendered "for the whole"; that is, the whole body, the church for whom Christ gave himself, and is the Saviour of; or distributively, and be translated, "for everyone"; for everyone of the sons God brings to glory, (Hebrews 2:10) for everyone of the "brethren", whom Christ sanctifies, and he is not ashamed to own, and to whom he declares the name of God, (Hebrews 2:11,12) for everyone of the members of the "church", in the midst of which he sung praise, (Hebrews 2:12) for every one of the "children" God has given him, and for whose sake he took part of flesh and blood, (Hebrews 2:13,14) and for everyone of the "seed" of Abraham, in a spiritual sense, whose nature he assumed, (Hebrews 2:16) . [/FONT][/FONT]
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Additionally, as seen in [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Chapter 2 of [/FONT]Commentary Critical and Explanatory [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]on the Whole Bible---by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown (who in NO uncertain terms, share their views):[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]His exaltation after sufferings is the perfecting or consummation of His work (Hebrews 2:10) for us: without it His death would have been ineffectual; with it, and from it, flows the result that His tasting of death is available for (in behalf of, for the good of) every man. He is crowned as the Head in heaven of our common humanity, presenting His blood as the all-prevailing plea for us. This coronation above makes His death applicable for every individual man (observe the singular; not merely "for all men"), Hebrews 4:14, 9:24, 1 John 2:2. "Taste death" implies His personal experimental undergoing of death: death of the body, and death (spiritually) of the soul, in His being forsaken of the Father. "As a physician first tastes his medicines to encourage his sick patient to take them, so Christ, when all men feared death, in order to persuade them to be bold in meeting it, tasted it Himself. though He had no need" [CHRYSOSTOM]. (Hebrews 2:14,15).[/FONT]
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Jesus' torment, despite his anticipations of it in Gethsemane, was surely inconceivable in advance...Matthew 24:36 . There is no escaping the reality of how Jesus's crying out to God in immense pain of Divine Abandonment ( Isaiah 59:1-3 / Isaiah 59 ) which he suffers as a substitute for sinful mankind.

Isaiah 53/Isaiah 53:8
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.


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God CANNOT look upon sin/iniquity...as only sin and iniquities can create a practical barrier between God and His people, typically resulting in God's Discipline.

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.
Isaiah 59:1-3 / Isaiah 59
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Many other scriptures on the very issue, [FONT=Times New Roman, serif][as God cannot look upon sin and it is not allowed in His presence[/FONT] Leviticus 22:2-4 / Leviticus 22/ ( Jeremiah 23:38-40 / Jeremiah 23 /2 Kings 24:19-20 2 Kings 24/Jeremiah 52:2-4/ Jeremiah 52/2 Thessalonians 1:8-10/ 2 Thessalonians 1 /)With Galatians 3:13, the reality is that the divine curse is the result of disobediance...but the burden has been lifted by Christ's work on the cross.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I don't think Yeshua experienced any rebirths... not even in the resurrection.. He IS and Will always be in the state of I AM.. ..

I think duality of nature makes a big difference as it concerns change.

Acts 2:25-32

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

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The Biblical record seems to indicate that Jesus WAS helpless in his situation, and it was Father who righteously resurrected Him AND Glorified him....even though it was Christ who freely chose to lay down his life/yield Himself to Death ( John 10:16-18, John 12:26-28 )--and it was not an easy thing to do. For even the Son of Man dreaded what was in front of him, to the point where even the Lord had moments of doubt....and was OVERWHELMED with Sorrow/Great emptiness, to the point of death ( Matthew 26:37-39, Mark 14:33-35, Luke 22:39-48 , Hebrews 12:1-3, etc ). But God brought Him back...

Acts 3:14-16
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.


Acts 5:29-31
The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.


Acts 10:39-41
but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.


Acts 13:29-31
But God raised him from the dead,


Acts 13:33-35
32"We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
" 'You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.[a]'

The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words: " 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.36"For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. 37But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay. 38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.
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Romans 4:23-25
but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Romans 6:3-5
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Romans 10:9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Romans 8:1
11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.




Galatians 1:1-3
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—


Ephesians 1
That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,

Colossians 2:11
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.


1 Peter 1:20-22
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

1 Peter 3:17-19
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

__________________

​

Paul often expounded upon the role of the Holy Spirit in the Life of Christ and how dualistic it was, showing how Christ relied upon the Spirit for the Ministry and the Power of the HOLY Spirit to raise the Body of Christ from the Grave (as he noted in Acts 2:26-28, Acts 2:30-32, Acts 13:27-38, Romans 1:3-5 , Romans 8:10-12, Hebrews 9:13-15, etc )......with it being established that the Spirit of Christ was present with the Father...and this is said in light of what the Word says when Luke 23:46 ( Mt 27:50, Mk 15:37, Jn 19:30, etc) tells us that Christ gave up His SPirit...and while the Physical Body of Christ remained, the Spirit of Christ left...and scripture shows where His spirit would go: into the Father's hands.....just like Jesus told the thief on the cross when saying "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), even though his Physical Body was still in the GRAVE...and very similar to how Stephen saw Jesus in heaven and asked Him to receive his spirit (Acts 7:55-60).

1 Peter 3:18-19
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit19through whom[a] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
​

Other texts to consider are where he addressed the issue of Christ being God and yet explaining the reality of his coming with the emphasis on his being a man ( Phillippians 2, Hebrews 2:17, Hebrews 4:15, etc)--being perfected/living life as a Perfect man and experiencing growth/development as all men do in His PHYSICAL nature ( Hebrews 5:4-10, Luke 2:39-40, Luke 2:51-52, etc ) in order to aid us in our own growth of becoming like Him, both Co-Heirs with Him and "Sons of the Lord" ( Romans 6-8). For Christ's divine authority is meaningless unless, with respect to his humanity, he has been raised from the dead.....as only a Resurrected Lord can be our cohem gadol, interceding with the Father on our behalf (Romans 8:34, Matthew 4:14, etc), only a resurrected man can be the firstfruits of the resurrection promised to us (Romans 8:23-29, I Corinthians 15) and only a resurrected Messiah can come to rule in glory and fulfill the universal Jewish expectation of final deliverance for the nations of Israel.

 

[visionary]

So to you rebirth = resurrection

To me it is as Yeshua said.. death = sleep

There is no rebirth in awakening from sleep... thus resurrection is not a rebirth

I took a look on the internet and this new age theology of connecting rebirth with reincarnation/resurrection can be found ..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

So to you rebirth = resurrection

To me it is as Yeshua said.. death = sleep

He also said that His glorified state was radically different than how it was when he lived prior to death. Differing forms of existence - as opposed to the view that says he only slept in the grave/nothing changed on his form. Christ was the first of His kind to truly ressurect as He did with the abilities he did. He is truly the Firstborn from the dead ( Colossians 1:17-19 , Revelation 1:4-6 , etc), in that He was...and always will be...the PROTOTYPE of what it is that will follow for all Trusting in the Father as He did and looking unto His finished Work (John 11). And all who look to Him will be adopted into the Resurrection power JUST AS HE was adopted into the Resurrection from the dead. He conquered death in His resurrection - not necessarily in how he lived/was BEFORE He died - and his resurrected body is RADICALLY different than the Pre-Death body (i.e. walking through walls, teleportation, etc. - all of us getting what he got according to I Corinthians 15).

Hebrews 5:5
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
​

Either one believes it or they don't

Christ was the Firstborn in the sense of being the first of many to come who'd be like Him since that was the context it was originally understood in...especially as it concerns Christ being the firstfruits of Creation, in line with the concept of firstfruits in the OT ( Jeremiah 2:2-4, Ezekiel 44:29-31, Proverbs 3:9, Psalm 78:51, 2 Chronicles 31:4-6 , Deuteronomy 26:9-11 , Numbers 18:11-13, Exodus 34:26, ):

I Corinthians 15:20
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
​

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
​

There is no rebirth in awakening from sleep ... thus resurrection is not a rebirth

If it was solely an issue of sleep, obviously. Scripture, however, never says that Yeshua only slept - just as it also never says that those who die are only sleeping. More was already shared in-depth on the issue elsewhere, as seen here:

Sleep and resurrection...

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Every time Yeshua spoke of the dead.. He explains their state of dead..

Matthew 9:24
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

.. agree with what He said when it came to His supporting the Law, Prophets and the scriptures in the TORAH...and many of those things discussed how the spirits of the dead are not simply doing nothing. That is why I say that seeing his words on the dead being "alseep" need to be taken within the context of how early Jewish believers would have seen it. For they did not have the mindset that being dead/"asleep" meant that there was no form of waiting in a temporary state or that spirits of the deceased are not existing in the spiritual realms.

When one comes face to face with the Lord in totality, then one has truly AWOKEN--and everything else is truly a dream.....but prior to Christ, this is something that didn't happen immediately. As said before, What happens to the breath when it leaves the body (since it is the animating principle)? This question troubled the ancients, and had different opinions as we see here:

Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit [breath] of man that goeth upward, and the spirit [breath] of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
​

One theory held that it returned to God:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [breath] shall return unto God who gave it.


​

For those who thought the breath was still alive and returned to God, they reasoned that one might see the disembodied breath on its way to God at differing times...and the Lord would also allow it to occur in certain cases. This temporary traveling breath was a “ghost” (“ghost” was the Anglo word for “breath”).

This all goes back to what was mentioned earlier in when it came to Samuel being summoned by Saul in I Samuel 28
.....

And as I Samuel 28 indicates, it was possible to talk with someone from the deceased if....and ONLY if...the Lord allowed it to occur. For Samuel, he was in good relation to the Lord/resting (i.e. "sleeping")...but was distrubed from his temporary state of rest. There has to be a conscious state of some sort even as "sleep" was occurring for the dead if the scriptures are to be consistent. The same can be said of Jesus. For some use Ephesians 4:7-10 to teach that Jesus went to hell or to Hades to release the prisoners held there and take them to heaven or into God’s presence. The idea is that before His death, all Old Testament believers were in Abraham’s bosom—the paradise part of Hades. Hades or Sheol was seen as the place of the dead with three areas or compartments: (1) the abyss or tartarus, the place of confinement for those demons who sinned in the days of Noah; (2) torments, the place of suffering for all unbelievers until the time of the resurrection of the unjust and the Great White Throne Judgment when they will be cast eternally into the lake of fire, and (3) a third place separated by a great gulf (see Luke 16), called Abraham’s Bosom, the place of blessing for believers.​

Truly, within scripture, the Saints are not shown to be dead...but alive and able to see and know what goes on on earth.

All saints live on/are in existence with the Father.

One of my mentors had something occur for them when they were a young couple with a beautiful baby boy. The child was literally torn apart by a pit-bull from next door--and although they tried to save the child, the child died. The couple grieved for a long time on the issue, even after being saved. However, they sought to trust in the Lord.

During service in church, my friend had a vision of heaven opening...and this beautiful lady in white robes was present with his little son also clothed in white as well. It shocked him, as he had been praying for weeks that the Lord would please give him clarity on where his son was and what to do. When he described the vision to his wife, she procedded to ask what the other lady looked like--and it astonished her hearing it. For she explained that the way he described the woman holding the child was the EXACT same way her grandmother looked like...and her grandmother who passed was a righteous woman of God who loved the Lord with all of her might before her passing. When she described that to my friend, he was overjoyed/broke down since it let him know that the Lord truly took care of his young one...and that he was in Heaven with the Lord.

Truly amazing and one of the reasons I know the saints continue to be with the Lord and even interact with the living with HIS permission when he sees fit. Although those serving the Lord have purpose/are with him intercedding for us just as the Lord Jesus and others do in Heaven....I think there's alot of merit in noting that at times, may be allowed to return if the Lord wants them to show something
__________________


For others of the mindset that death ends all things, including communication, I think there's a bit of duality with the subject. Yeshua said the dead sleep as in the example of Lazarus.. and I wouldn't argue with Him on the state of the dead.. He knows what He is talking about.

Being "asleep" doesn't mean being without a conscious state of being. It simply means being in a temporary state of rest---and as it concerns the concept of departed spirits/ghosts, that is inherent when it comes to discussing the reality of how there's a duality of life/death inherent in life. Even when people die, they still live...but they may be in a different state than how it'll be when there's a resurrection. John 11:13-15 shows Jesus making plain that Lazarus is dead, yet he was able to raise Him to life....and prior to Jesus saying plainly to his disciples that Lazarus was dead, he said in John 11:10-12 that Lazarus had fallen asleep. Thus, the concept of death was still present...but it was given a context. The same goes for the little girl who Jesus rose from the grave--for Jesus noted that she had been "asleep" ( Mark 5:38-40 ) rather than "Dead" in the sense of forever lost/diminished. Same thing goes for Acts 7:59-60 when Stephen was killed and it was described as him falling asleep.

In sleep, the mind is STILL active and thus its why dreaming occurs...specifically at the stage of REM Sleep. One is inactive and yet their spirit is still processing things in a state that is not fully how things are meant to be...and the same goes for the concept of death. One can die physically in their body, yet still be in a state akin to dreaming where they're not yet where they are to be.

sleep = death

Psalm 13:3

​

Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

​

The kings of Israel.. "slept with their fathers"

1 Kings 2:10
So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
​

And years later... David is still dead and buried..

Acts 2:29
“Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said..
​

1 Kings 11:43
And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.
​

1 Kings 14:20
And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.
​

1 Kings 14:31
And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.
​

Sleep and resurrection.

Daniel 12:2

​

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
​

Every time Yeshua spoke of the dead.. He explains their state of dead..

Seeing his words on the dead being "alseep" need to be taken within the context of how early Jewish believers would have seen it. For they did not have the mindset that being dead/"asleep" meant that there was no form of waiting in a temporary state or that spirits of the deceased are not existing in the spiritual realms.​

When one comes face to face with the Lord in totality, then one has truly AWOKEN--and everything else is truly a dream.....but prior to Christ, this is something that didn't happen immediately.​

For those trusting in the Lord, there's a bit of a duality...as they will not ultimately perish since they will be with Him. Jesus noted this when it came to the Sadducees not believing in the resurrection...and his saying that the Lord is the God of the Living ( Matthew 22:31-33 , Luke 20:37-39 , Mark 12:18-28 , etc). The OT saints had this hope as well (Psalm 17:14-15 , Psalm 16:9-11 , Acts 2:26-28 / Acts 2 , 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 , etc)​

G​

There's a reason other Jewish commentators have noted for a good bit that the Resurrected Lord was reborn from the death - and why the authors of scripture note rather plainly what they did on Yeshua being the firstborn from the dead. No way around that.

I took a look on the internet and this new age theology of connecting rebirth with reincarnation/resurrection can be found ..

Interesting, as there also is new age theology concerning the issue of men simply sleeping when they died - if aware of the concept of soul sleep (although it's often debated as to its validity). Of course, a concept held by one group doesn't indicate it's unbiblical solely because they hold it anymore than coffee becomes bad at Starbucks because an atheist believes coffee is good just as believers in Christ do.

 

[yedida]

I have serious problems with that verse of Heb 5:5. If Yeshua was God in the flesh, why on earth would he need to learn obedience? Didn't he already know all about it?

 

[visionary]

..being "firstborn" is a supremacy position for without His resurrection we could not have ours.

 

[Lulav]

I have serious problems with that verse of Heb 5:5. If Yeshua was God in the flesh, why on earth would he need to learn obedience? Didn't he already know all about it?

And does G-d have a G-d?

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

john 20

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying , Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased .

2 peter

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

rev 3

3 things will be written on the overcomer,

1. The name of G-d
2. The name of the city of G-d
3. Yeshua's new name

 

[daq]

If you're going to spread a falsehood, one needs evidence of such. There was never at any point anything mentioned on not believing Psalm 22:24 and thus (again) you argue with yourself on what was not said. For the context determines meaning - and seeing that Yeshua was indeed NOT forsaken in the long scheme of things since he was redeemed, you need to do better at addressing scripture.

It was you who made the statements and I simply responded to what you wrote. If you do not remember what you have written then perhaps you should not make so many statements all at one time?

And if you are not willing to stand by your own statements then what is the point in any of this? Why should those who do not agree with you need to keep showing you what you have stated from the previous pages? Again, bold red emphasis mine:

I agree with other scholars who note that the judgment was so catastrophic that the Father broke fellowship with the Son while he was bearing our sins and the sun was darkened during this time to indicate the terrible judgment and separation...and Jesus voiced this terrible separation from God the Father when he cried out to him while in darkness and on the cross: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ that is, ‘My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?’” (Matthew 27:46. Also Mark 15:34).

And a spiritually dead (as in seperated from the Father) Lord is not one who ceases to be the Lord--or other logical fallacies when people assume one must believe that it's impossible for Christ, in some kind of way, to be forsaken. His spirit went to be with the Lord after He died, but at some point he was literally forsaken/cursed and experienced the Full Wrath of the Lord we deserved.

As a man, Christ walked in communion with the Holy SPirit..who empowered Him to do ministry and who He looked forward to sending after He rose so that others could have that relationship. But when He was on the Cross, even if it was for a minute, the Spirit left Him/the Father turned His face away from the Son.....as the Father cannot look upon sin.

John 8:15-19 KJV
15. Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

John 8:28-29 KJV
28. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 16:32-33 KJV
32. Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

So that they would have peace Yeshua tells them beforehand that he is not alone because the Father is with him. Therefore it is error to say that "the Father broke fellowship with the Son" (as you put it) and neither is it true that "the Father turned his face away from the Son" (as you put it) as Psalm 22:24 clearly reveals. Rather the Son was TEACHING even with his final words upon the tree; from the opening line of Psalm 22, which same passage then proceeds to foretell precisely the events which had transpired in that very day. And, yes, this all does have to do with a correct understanding of atonement, and again such an error is catastrophic to the understanding; for the Father did not forsake the Son, even as Psalm 22 concludes and Psalm 23 continues:

Psalms 23:1-5 KJV
1. The Lord [YHWH] is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup Runneth over.

Romans 9:3 KJV
3. For I could wish that myself were accursed [GSN#331 anathema] from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Romans 9:3 ASV
3. For I could wish that I myself were anathema [GSN#331 anathema] from Christ for my brethren's sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Romans 9:3 RSV
3. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off [GSN#331 anathema] from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race.

Original Strong's Ref. #331
Romanized anathema
Pronounced an-ath'-em-ah
from GSN0394; a (religious) ban or (concretely) excommunicated (thing or person):
KJV--accused, anathema, curse, X great.

1 Corinthians 12:1-3
1. Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3. Wherefore I make known unto you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Yeshua anathema; [GSN#331 anathema] and no one can say Yeshua Master, but by the Spirit Holy.

Seeing how you have excommunicated the Son from the Father in the mind of your doctrine, as you state in your own words, "but at some point he was literally forsaken/cursed" teaching that the Son was anathema-"cut off" from the Father "even if it was for a minute" (also your words) why then should it be any wonder that you would seek to do the same with any one of his disciples who might disagree with you?

 

[daq]

And again how else is this your statement intended to be understood except but that in your mindset Yeshua "became sin" or was "made sin"?

But when He was on the Cross, even if it was for a minute, the Spirit left Him/the Father turned His face away from the Son.....as the Father cannot look upon sin.

In becoming "Sin" for our sakes, Christ became our subsitute, thereby BORE GOD'S WRATH (the punishment that we deserve) in our place (for our sake). Thus the techincal term for this foundational doctrine----and what has been essential in the Church for ages when it comes to basic witnessing to others on the GOOD NEWS---is the Substitutionary Atonement---that Christ has provided the atoning sacrifice as "our" subsitute, for the sins of all who believe. Romans 3:12 . The background for this is Isaiah 53, from the Greek (Septuagint) translation of the Hebrew OT, which includes the most lengthy and detailed OT prophecy of Christ's death and which contains NUMEROUS parallels to II Corinthians 5:21. Isaiah's prophecy specifically used the Greek word for "Sin" (Gk, hamarita) five times...with reference to the coming Savior (the Suffering Servant) in just a few verses------e.g., "Surely he has born our griefs" (Isaiah 53:4); "He was crushed for OUR iniquities (Isaiah 53:11); "He shall bear their iniquities" ( Isaiah 53:11); "He bore the sin of many (Isaiah 53:12); "He has laid on them the iniqiuty of us all" ( Isaiah 53:6 ).

What you fail to understand from Isaiah 53 is that the high priest takes up/bare/bore/LIFTS UP (Is.53:12 nasa') the sins from the people and sends them away into the wilderness once per year.

In a precise fufillment of this prophecy in Isaiah 53, Christ became "sin" for those who believe in Him, so that in Him we might become the Righteousness of God. This means that just as God imputed our sin and guilt to Christ ("he made Him to BE SIN") so God also imputes the righteousness of Christ---a Righteousness that is not our own---to all who believe in Christ. Because Christ bore the sins of those who believe, God regards and treats believers as having the legal status of righteousness...with Greek Word being "dikaiosyne". Again, seeing that none of what you said really addresses the scripture and that you already misread numerous passages, that's your loss in lacking ability to deal with it properly

The atoning blood of our Covenant is the Spirit of Grace:

Zechariah 12:10 KJV
10. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Hebrews 10:26-29 KJV
26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Therefore the sacrificial blood of the atonement of our Covenant must be innocent, pure, spotless, without blemish, undefiled, HOLY AND WITHOUT SIN. If Messiah "became sin" in the manner in which you have imagined it then we are not removed from our own sins even if indeed one is truly "IN MESSIAH". It is from this mindset and the teachings of the sacrificial Torah commandments, (which were shadows of things to come) that the New Testament authors write concerning Messiah:

Hebrews 7:27 KJV
27. Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did [GSN#4160 poieo] once, when he offered up himself.

Hebrews 7:27 TUA
27. hos ouk echeikath hemeran anangken, hosper hoi archiereis, proteronhuper ton idion hamartion thusias anaferein epeitaton tou laou, touto gar epoiesen [poieo] efapax heautonanenengkas.

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV
21. For he hath made [poieo] him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

2 Corinthians 5:21 TUA
21. Ton me gnonta hamartianhuper hemon hamartian epoiesen, [poieo] hina hemeis genomethadikaiosune Theou en auto.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21. The [one] not knowing sin, for us epoiesen - he made [an offering for] sin; that we might become justified of God in him.

The word for sin in the Greek seems very likely to have been treated much the same as the equivalent Hebrew word for sin insomuch that both are representative words not only used to describe the sins themselves but also the sacrifices and penalties for the sins. This is not so evident in New Testament Greek writings but widely evident in Old Testament contexts. Knowing however that the New Testament writers come from a Hebrew mindset only makes the point more valid and acceptable. Otherwise the one taking the KJV at face value in this instance, (and most other English translations which followed suit) runs the risk of basing critical foundational theologic groundwork on a single uncorroborated interpretation of one passage; and that in the face of many other passages that have already refuted the understanding. In other words the one who believes that this passage suggests that Yeshua was technically "imputed with sin" in our behalf remains in his own sins even though he claims to be in Messiah. Messiah is without sin and for the same reason the writer of Hebrews makes this clear in the midst of his discourse concerning Yom Kippur, (Hebrews 9:28) so that there be no misunderstanding that Yeshua appears the second time; but not like a "scapegoat" with all the sins upon its head, rather Yeshua will appear the second time WITHOUT SIN unto salvation.

Original Strong's Greek Ref. #266
Romanized hamartia
Pronounced ham-ar-tee'-ah
from GSN0264; a sin (properly abstract):
KJV--offence, sin(-ful).

Original Strong's Hebrew Ref. #2398
Romanized chata'
Pronounced khaw-taw'
a primitive root; properly, to miss; hence (figuratively and generally) to sin; by inference, to forfeit, lack, expiate, repent, (causatively) lead astray, condemn:
KJV--bear the blame, cleanse, commit [sin], by fault, harm he hath done, loss, miss, (make) offend(-er), offer for sin, purge, purify (self), make reconciliation, (cause, make) sin(-ful, -ness), trespass.

Original Strong's Hebrew Ref. #2403
Romanized chatta'ah
Pronounced khat-taw-aw'
or chattacth {khat-tawth'}; from HSN2398; an offence (sometimes habitual sinfulness), and its penalty, occasion, sacrifice, or expiation; also (concretely) an offender:
KJV--punishment (of sin), purifying(-fication for sin), sin(-ner, offering).

Hebrews 9:24-28 KJV
24. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year [Yom Kippur] with blood of others;
26. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Yeshua was not "imputed" with sin but rather took the consequential penalties thereof upon himself. As for the sin itself it is "sent away" upon the head of a "scapegoat" according to the commandment and there is, therefore, now no condemnation for those who are truly in Messiah because he also is WITHOUT SIN. Therefore let those who name the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness:

Matthew 9:2 KJV
2. And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven [GSN#863 aphiemi] thee.

Original Strong's Ref. #863
Romanized aphiemi
Pronounced af-ee'-ay-mee
from GSN0575 and hiemi (to send; an intensive form of eimi, to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow):
KJV--cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.

Matthew 9:2-6
2. And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Yeshua seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Teknon, [child] be of good cheer; the sins of thee be aphiemi-sent away!
3. And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves; This man blasphemes.
4. And Yeshua knowing their thoughts said; Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
5. For whether is easier, to say, The sins of thee be aphiemi-sent away; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6. But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to aphiemi-send away sins, then saith he to the sick of the palsy; Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Only the high priest was vested in this power upon the earth; and that at Yom Kippur.

John 5:9-14
9. And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the Sabbath.
10. The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the Sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
11. He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
12. Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
13. And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Yeshua had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
14. Afterward Yeshua findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

EDIT-PS ~ Seeing how this is about to go off-topic, (though technically it is not off-topic at this point because of what is stated in Matthew 12:43-45 and Luke 11:24-26) I will leave you the last word.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It was you who made the statements and I simply responded to what you wrote.

Sorry - but responding with an accusation on not supporting a scripture when it was never said that the scripture wasn't supported isn't responding to what was written. Period. One doesn't respond by arguing against what was never said

If you do not remember what you have written then perhaps you should not make so many statements all at one time?

Seeing that I already remember, it'd be better if perhaps you would do better in listening before you speak (Proverbs 29:20 ).

And if you are not willing to stand by your own statements

Another falsehood, seeing tha I've not gone from what I said. It doesn't do you any good trying to find anything that sticks in argument by throwing out what was never in view, Bruh - but it is entertaining

John 8:15-19 KJV
15. Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

John 8:28-29 KJV
28. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 16:32-33 KJV
32. Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

So that they would have peace Yeshua tells them beforehand that he is not alone because the Father is with him.

And none of that changes the fact that the Lord noted directly that he was forsaken. Scripture with scripture, Bruh and no need being selective. Anything else is simply spreading falsehood on the scriptures and one will have to acccount to God on it. God noting where the Father is with him doesn't mean that the Father was not willing to turn away his face from His own son and POUR out his wrath on him for our sins - with the Son being redeemed afterward in death when he gave up His Spirit and entrusted himself to Him who judges justly.

Rather the Son was TEACHING even with his final words upon the tree; from the opening line of Psalm 22, which same passage then proceeds to foretell precisely the events which had transpired in that very day. And, yes, this all does have to do with a correct understanding of atonement, and again such an error is catastrophic to the understanding; for the Father did not forsake the Son, even as Psalm 22 concludes and Psalm 23 continues:

Again, whether one likes it or not, teaching that the Son was not forsaken is counter to what the Son taught and against what the scriptures note - and against what Judaism has taught as well.


"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree')" (Galatians 3:13)
"Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows. . . He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. . . the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. . . it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin" (Isaiah 53:6-8, 10) One key word to explain what happened at the cross is propitiation -- "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1st John 2:2). The word means to turn away wrath by sacrifice, and thus make God favorable toward us. In pagan religions, its like the tribe throwing the virgin into the volcano. Is this a Christian concept? The difference between that and pagan tribesmen chucking the girl down the volcano is that, first, the volcano deity is a fictional character and second, true Deity has come Himself to be the sacrifice. Jesus turned the wrath from us by absorbing it within Himself.

He, in fact, experienced the wrath of God on the cross Jesus was in some way, forsaken. Jesus, as Man, had Lived in continuous fellowship with the Father - "And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him." (John 8:29). Yet, now, at the cross His fellowship with the Father is broken. There is a thick darkness covering the day (verse 45). It is not merely the absence of light, it is spiritual and it is thick. Jesus is experiencing the wrath of God, the wrath which we deserved, as our substitute. The word He uses for this, He takes from Psalm 22:1, forsaken. "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

As Charles Spurgeon noted,

"I remember, also, that our blessed Lord had lived in unbroken fellowship with God, and to be forsaken was a new grief to him. He had never known what the dark was till then: his life had been lived in the light of God... His fellowship with the Father was of the highest, deepest, fullest order; and what must the loss of it have been? We lose but drops when we lose our joyful experience of heavenly fellowship; and yet the loss is killing: but to our Lord Jesus Christ the sea was dried up I mean his sea of fellowship with the infinite God." -- Charles Spurgeon​

Notice that Jesus speaks as Man to God, not as Son to Father. His prayer addresses, "My God, My God," not "My Father." Jesus is functioning as a man functions and dies on the cross functioning as a man. As it addresses God, it is not a cry of total despair. It is a cry of submission and dependance. In Psalm 22, the context is of one who is trusting in the Lord. The question has been asked, 'How can God forsake God?' The answer must be that God the Father deserted the Son's human nature. . Jesus is God incarnate, with all the qualities which make man man including a human spirit and emotions.

Wayne Grudem maintains that "It is better to understand the question. . . as meaning, 'Why have you left me for so long. This is the sense it has in Psalm 22." That would make sense in terms of Jesus adopting limited knowledge in His incarnation. Grudem goes on to observe, "Jesus in his human nature knew he would have to bear our sins, to suffer and die. But, in his human consciousness, he probably did not know how long this suffering would take." (Systematic Theology, page 576) On the cross Jesus never ceased to be who He is -- God. "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" (2nd Corinthians 5:19). Jesus functioned as a man, really and fully man -- and He died as a man, experiencing suffering and death and the unknown as a man. He was forsaken not only as our sin bearer, but as a man. He was forsaken as our substitute... He was forsaken that God might never leave nor forsake us. (Hebrews 13:5; Romans 8:31-39)

Habakkuk 1:13 adds that God cannot look on, or accept, wickedness. Good and evil are not compatible, and God, who is good, cannot and will not accept evil. So, God does not regard the prayers of an unrepentant sinner. Deuteronomy 23:12–14 explains the principle that God does not want to see something unclean in a person. If the uncleanness is not taken care of, He will turn away from us and forsake us. Finally, Psalm 5:5 points out that God will not allow a boastful evil person to stand before Him. God will not hear somebody who is proud about his or her sins and who is not willing to repent of them.

But why did God forsake Christ who never sinned, who was never boastful or unclean or wicked or evil? We know already that Christ had become sin for us, that the curse of the law for our sins was upon Him when He was crucified. We also read that at the time of His crucifixion, just prior to His death, something remarkable happened. We are told that it became DARK over all the land from the sixth to the ninth hour. What is the significance of this period of darkness? Darkness symbolizes sin, as many Scriptures reveal (Compare Romans 13:12; Ephesians 5:8–14). When Christ had all the sins of mankind placed upon Him, thereby having 'become' sin, in that sense, He had to experience separation from God, the Father! God, the Father saw all of the sins of man placed on His Son and He could not look at them. His eyes were 'purer than to behold' those sins. Remember, those sins included mass murders, rapes, terrible wars, tortures, sorceries, demonic idolatries, holocausts, martyrdom of the saints—all of the wicked, evil, rotten, despicable and deplorable abominations man has done, and continues to do—and all of these were placed on Christ


People need to be aware of what is meant by the Father’s forsaking. Everyone assumes that the Father’s forsaking of the Son is in his pouring out of his justified wrath upon the Son for the sin he is bearing on the cross. And with that, I agree. Thabiti Anyabwile ran a recent series on what it meant for the Father to forsake the Son on the cross; here are his major points:

1. The Father Allowed Jesus to Suffer Social Abandonment

2. The Father Allowed Jesus to Suffer Emotional Desertion

3. The Father Allowed the Son to Suffer Spiritual Wrath​

He was acutely conscious not only of the pain from the nails, but also of a break in that intimate and loving fellowship which He had always enjoyed with the Father. Since Jesus in His human nature was subject to the limitations which are common to men, it was as possible for Him to experience the sense of separation from the Father as it was for Him to be ignorant of the time of the end of the world, or to suffer pain or hunger. But during the crucifixion, as He bore a burden of sin such as had never been borne and could never be borne by any mere man, He went through an experience far more awful and terrifying than is possible for any mere martyr. In contrast with His sufferings, the Christian martyrs were deeply conscious of God's presence as they yielded up their lives. If Christ's death was only a martyr's death it might well fill us with terror and despair, for it would show that the holiest man who ever lived was utterly forsaken by God in the hour of His greatest need.

Jesus was expressing the abandonment of God for himself, but not only for himself, but on our behalf as well. We know from the Isaiah 53 prophecy about the Messiah, “Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows” v.4. “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed,” v.5. “Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and . . . the Lord makes his life a guilt offering,” v.10. “For he bore the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors,” v. 12. The last verse is key because is says, “For he bore the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors” (emphasis added). Now we can fully understand the cry of Christ on the cross. Acting in his role of atoning sacrifice for the sins of sinners, Christ suffers a fate he didn’t deserve, yet the sins of the world were placed upon him. In that instant, he was separated and rejected from God the Father, just as all of us sinners deserve. Jesus not only suffered physical pain on our behalf, he suffered more importantly spiritually and emotionally. He was rejected by God in that one atoning instant, so then, the cry that came from him was truly a personal cry of deliverance to the Father on his behalf, because he was at that point carrying the sins of the world upon his shoulders. But more important than that, he cried also on our behalf – in our place – because if he hadn’t volunteered to die in our place, the very words, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me,” would come from our lips at some future Judgment Day.

Psalms 23:1-5 KJV
1. The Lord [YHWH] is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup Runneth over.

Psalm 23 is not a Messianic Psalm, nor was it remotely in connection with Psalm 22 - as if all the Psalms were chronological. Do better in dealing with scripture please...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

And again how else is this your statement intended to be understood except but that in your mindset Yeshua "became sin" or was "made sin"?.

Who said it was to be understood otherwise? Again, arguing against what wasn't stated is your tendency - as noting where the Father turned his back on the Son for a time isn't the same as saying Christ was ultimately forsaken (as your claim per Psalm 22 or other scriptures noting where Christ/the Father were one or that the Father always hears the Son).

As the High Rabbi and teacher of all things, many Bible scholars believe our Lord used a technique known as remez from the cross. Remez is a Jewish rabbinical technique that gives only a section of Scripture while assuming that the student will know all of the Scripture around that line. It is thought that Jesus used this many times throughout His life on earth. For example, the name “Son of Man” is an obvious remez to Daniel and even Christ writing in the sand is a possible remez to Jeremiah 17:13. We must remember that Christ is the word – the Word made flesh. He is all that Scripture points to and everything He did was tied to Scripture. So it is no surprise that the sayings of Christ from the cross are all tied to Scripture.

In Scripture, “forsake” almost always means that God allows His children to fall into the hands of enemies (all under His sovereignty). So to forsake Biblically implies more of coming under judgement than the idea of turning away. However, we must also understand that in a sense God did turn away – by turning all His goodness away from Christ but focusing intensely all of His righteous wrath fully on Christ. This is no doubt an accurate picture of hell. What the Bible tells us took place is all the wrath and anger of God that we deserve was focused on Christ on the cross. The Father was pouring out the wrath we deserve on His Son as the darkness of judgment fell on the world. All the while Christ relied on the Father and knew that He was with Him even though He walked through the valley of the shadow of death.

When Christ cries out "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me!" He doesn't mean that the man Jesus was somehow stripped of His divinity, or that the Father and the Son were cleaved into two separate individuals. Jesus' God-nature was just as inseparably a part of Him as His human nature. No, Jesus was first of all calling attention to the prophecy that He was fulfilling at that time. Psalm 22 begins with those exact words, and the Jews referred to specific Psalms by their first verse. Christ was declaring His mission by pointing to a prophecy of His own suffering. Not only did the hearers miss this point, but they thought He was calling Elijah

It is true that in some sense the protection that the Father had afforded Christ in His earthly ministry was now absent. Several times previously, there were those who gathered around Jesus to take His life (Luke 4:29-30, John 8:59). Jesus always escaped unscathed. Satan even recognized protection was a promise from Psalm 91 and he quotes that promise to Jesus in Matthew 4:6, " 'He will give His angels charge concerning You' and 'On their hands they will bear You up, lest you strike Your foot against a stone.' " However, we must be cautious and understand that this withdrawal of Holy protection was *planned*. It did not come as a surprise to Christ. In the garden, Jesus prayed fervently to the Father because He knew the suffering He would entail. Jesus even said in Matthew 26:53 that He could call legions of angels to deliver Him. So the suffering and atonement wasn't a random forsaking of God, but the voluntary act of Jesus in taking our punishment and feeling God's wrath - the seperation that comes from sin.

The verse itself, while quoted by Jesus from Psalm 22, and it's good to try to understand it by exegetically get a clear understanding of Psalm 22, but the force is definitely on "forsaken" as the way Jesus used it on the cross. Jesus did not quote Psalm 22 in a footnote way as if to say: "study the whole exegetical historical background of Psalm 22 to get how I really feel on the cross", but rather He quoted Psalm 22 to highlight a realistic, actual, event that happened to Him on the cross: that He's forsaken by God. This forsaken is real, it's actual, and it must be maintain for it signifies that God has pronounced real judgment against Sin, and not just sugarcoated Sin away simply because Jesus bared its burden. "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?” is the first word on the matter not the last. It is an expression that ultimately yields to a confidence that God has not forsaken the psalmist. Thus, Psalm 22 is clearly in the first category and thus is distinct from the Psalms which clearly express forsakeness.

Surely, God is pouring out his wrath on the Servant. But the Servant is set up as the offering and the scape goat of Lev. 16. The scape goat dies in the wilderness (lit. the land of cutting off or the cut off land). Whether God is present at that moment or not is not made clear (some find reference to demons here, but I’m not sure about this), but again the emphasis is on “alone.” Biblical theology wise, there is both continuity and discontinuity with David. Regarding discontinuity, David never dies in his distress, but his Greater Son undergoes death for his people. Davidic Psalms of this sort always stop just short of the death of David (Ps. 18 is classic). But Christ dies and so undergoes the greater Messianic woes of death (Acts 2:24), which also makes his deliverance from death much greater than any other deliverance of the Davidic King in the past (Acts 2:29ff). In type, David foreshadows the woes of the coming Messiah, but the antitype underwent greater pain and suffering than the type. The type felt death, whereas the antitype died.

Both the Father and Son knew from all eternity that Jesus would become the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world (Acts 15:18). It is unthinkable that the Son of God might question what is happening or be perplexed when His Father’s loving presence departs. But why would God bruise His own Son (Isa. 53:10)? The Father is not capricious, malicious, or being merely didactic. The real purpose is penal; it is the just punishment for the sin of Christ’s people. “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Cor. 5:21).
Christ was made sin for us, dear believers. Among all the mysteries of salvation, this little word “for” exceeds all. This small word illuminates our darkness and unites Jesus Christ with sinners. Christ was acting on behalf of His people as their representative and for their benefit. With Jesus as our substitute, God’s wrath is satisfied and God can justify those who believe in Jesus (Rom. 3:26). Christ’s penal suffering, therefore, is vicarious — He suffered on our behalf. He did not simply share our forsakenness, but He saved us from it. He endured it for us, not with us. You are immune to condemnation (Rom. 8:1) and to God’s anathema (Gal. 3:13) because Christ bore it for you in that outer darkness. Golgotha secured our immunity, not mere sympathy.

What you fail to understand from Isaiah 53 is that the high priest takes up/bare/bore/LIFTS UP (Is.53:12 nasa') the sins from the people and sends them away into the wilderness once per year.

And none of that, as you fail to understand, has anything to do with Yeshua being offered up as the sacrifice - perfect and innocent by the Father - and being High priest as well (Hebrews 7-10). Again, scripture with scripture is what you need to develop more.

The atoning blood of our Covenant is the Spirit of Grace:

Hebrews 10:26-29 KJV
26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?Therefore the sacrificial blood of the atonement of our Covenant must be innocent, pure, spotless, without blemish, undefiled, HOLY AND WITHOUT SIN. If Messiah "became sin" in the manner in which you have imagined it then we are not removed from our own sins even if indeed one is truly

Poor argument on your part - as the Blood of CHRIST was accepted alongside his sacrifice due to the fact that he WAS pure and thus could be a fitting substitute.

Jesus blood washes away my sin, it is not the sin.

Leviticus 16:21-22
21"Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22"The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.
​

The goat has the sin, the iniquities, ON its head. The goat is not the sin, the goat is the sin bearer. In the OT this had to be done over and over again each year because the sin could only be placed on the goat -- it could never carry all the sins of all time. Jesus was made to be sin for us, He became the sin, and He carried it all way for all time. This is the key difference in whether Jesus simply bore the sin on His head, or bore the sin in His body. But as for the goat, it was not the sin itself, but rather had the sin layed on its head.

Leviticus 16:9,15
9"And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering.

15"Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering,
​

2 Cor 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (NKJV)
​

God, The Father, made Him Who knew no sin, sin for us. The word 'made' (poievw -- poieo) can mean

• "to make", or
• "to do";

Jesus did not "act out, perform, do" sin. He was made "produced, formed, fashioned, caused, prepared to be, rendered as" sin (by the Father), in other words sin was transferred to Him, but not superficially laid upon Him, but rather He became (see supporting verse in Galations 3:13: "...being made a curse for us" [ givnomai -- ginomai] to become, come into existence, receive being). in Leviticus 16:21 we see Aaron "putting [the sins] upon the head of the [scape]goat". In the Hebrew this reads more plainly as:

all-of transgressions-of them to all-of sins-of them and he-gives them on head-of hairy-goat.
​

In the Hebrew Aaron "gives, adds, applies, ascribes, assigns, delivers, renders, thrusts" the sins to the goat. The word for 'putting' is not a word for simply placement upon, but rather a word of transferrance. So even the picture in the Old Testament shows, in its original language, as opposed to the English which can be mis-read, that the sins were transferred to the scapegoat. The blood was poured out in the sacrifice of life. Sacrificial goat. Jesus dying on the cross. Blood then has to be taken away. Scapegoat. Jesus taking away our sin to the uninhabitable place. High Priest sprinkles the blood on the alter and mercy seat. Our High Priest, Christ Jesus, does the same in Heaven (Hebrews 9). It's all there. It's all pictured. The typology is complete.

Taken from Leviticus 16:1-34, what we have here is:

1. Aaron dressed in a holy garb and washed, officiating the ceremony.
2. Two goats chosen specifically from the congregation of the children of Israel, both to be for sin, one as a sacrifice and the other as scapegoat.
3. Lots cast to differentiate the goats - one for sacrifice to YHWH, the other as scapegoat.
4. A suitable man to carry the scapegoat into the wilderness.
5. Sacrificing YHWH's goat as a sin offering.
6. Putting all the sins on the scape goat.
7. Having the suitable man carry the goat off into the wilderness to release it.
8. And having the suitable man wash himself and his clothes before returning to the camp.

Let's find the parallels in that with Yeshua:


Yeshua filled the office of Aaron, the goats and the suitable man here, along with the lamb, best of YHWH and best of Man This passage aligns Yeshua with the High Priesthood that Aaron served in ( Hebrews 5:1-10 )


Jesus was the sacrificial goat AND the scapegoat of Leviticus 16, d. He died and poured out His blood in sacrifice AND he carried the sin away from the altar into the uninhabitable place. Both the offering and the sin.


Again, gotta do better in understanding logic and scripture since the scriptures don't support you at any point when noting directly that Christ became SIN for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God as the apostles noted repeatedly.

IMHO, You're outside of Hebrew perspective at this point/on the fringes with the argument and prayerfully, that can change.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yeshua was not "imputed" with sin but rather took the consequential penalties thereof upon himself. As for the sin itself it is "sent away" upon the head of a "scapegoat" according to the commandment and there is, therefore, now no condemnation for those who are truly in Messiah because he also is WITHOUT SIN.

Again, not what the scriptures taught.

And he shall slay the lamb in the place where he shall kill the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the holy place: for as the sin offering is the priest's, so is the trespass offering: it is most holy: (Leviticus 14:13 KJV)

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:28 KJV)

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:15-16 KJV)

2 Cor. 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

​

What does it mean to be sin? Is there a difference in being sin, and being a sinner? Did God look at Jesus on the cross and still see His perfect, sinless Son who was still perfect but doing this great deed for others? Or, did He look at Jesus and see a sinner? Did He look at Jesus and see the sinner of sinners? If the doctrine of imputation not only includes His perfect righteousness credited to my account, but also includes my sin credited to His, then does that not mean that Jesus was not just doing some nice thing by dying in the place of others, but that He actually became what they were/are in order to pay that price and satisfy their debt? I would put forth that, if all He was doing was paying for something that others should pay for, then God the Father would have never had to turn His back upon His perfect Son, because He still would have seen that perfection instead of our sin.

If all He did was die for others, then an argument can be made that He did, in fact, die for every human being, and then that death would be made effectual upon their putting their faith in Him. But, if he actually became sin and took upon Himself the sin (past, present and future) of the sheep, then the doctrine of limited, substitutionary atonement is the only one that makes any sense. A general atonement makes no sense if Jesus actually became sin for those for whom He was suffering…unless, of course, one believes in universalism.There is no way to get around the fact that, if Jesus actually became sin (as Scripture declares He did) for all of humanity (every single person) , then the wrath for every single person has been paid, and everyone will be saved.

Did Jesus become a sinner on the cross - the answer is an emphatic, “YES…and NO!” Jesus was made to be sin, but He did not Himself become a sinner. John Gill says it so much better than I ever could, so I will close this with his comments.

he was made sin itself by imputation; the sins of all his people were transferred unto him, laid upon him, and placed to his account; he sustained their persons, and bore their sins; and having them upon him, and being chargeable with, and answerable for them, he was treated by the justice of God as if he had been not only a sinner, but a mass of sin; for to be made sin, is a stronger expression than to be made a sinner: but now that this may appear to be only by imputation, and that none may conclude from hence that he was really and actually a sinner, or in himself so, it is said he was “made sin”; he did not become sin, or a sinner, through any sinful act of his own, but through his Father’s act of imputation, to which he agreed;
​

Here's another way to look at it. The Bible tells us that Jesus was ruthlessly tortured and humiliated, and then He was brutally executed on a cross, and His body stayed in a tomb for 3 days, and it appears that He spent some time in Hades but without suffering .... and then He rose from the dead and spent a period of time on the earth in His glorified body (John 20:19, 24-28, Acts 1:1-4), and then He visibly rose up into the sky and took His place beside the Father in heaven. Notice that none of those things which Jesus experienced after He died will be experienced by any sinners after they die. So again, Jesus did not experience the same punishment that sinners deserve, and sinners will not experience what Jesus experienced.

Consider that if Jesus had committed just a single sin then He would have been a sinner like the rest of us, and He would have required the same punishment that individual sinners require. He could not have been an atoning sacrifice as a "spotless lamb" if He had committed any sins. Not only did Jesus never commit any sins during His life, but He also did not become a sinner in any way by paying our ransom on the cross. Jesus never deserved nor received the punishment that individual sinners will receive. Jesus did not become a sinner on the cross, but instead we are told that "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us" (2 Corinthians 5:21). In other words, the Father punished sin on the cross, the Father did not punish Jesus as a sinner. There's a huge difference! Jesus did not become a sinner when He paid our penalty, and therefore He did not receive the punishment that individual sinners will receive.

Some people argue that since Jesus did not suffer eternally in hell, therefore suffering eternally in hell cannot be the penalty which sinners will receive. This argument is based on the assumption that Jesus, as our Substitute, took the exact same punishment that we should have received. But as we have seen, that is a faulty assumption. For example, imagine that I have a 4-year-old daughter who disobeys me one day, so I tell her that she will be spanked. Imagine that I also have a teen-age son who steps forward and offers to be her substitute and to be punished in her place. I agree to the substitution, and I punish him by grounding him for 2 weeks. At that point, punishment has been done and I am satisfied. Notice that my son did not become a person who had disobeyed me, and in the same way, Jesus did not become a sinner on the cross. Also, notice that my son made a substitutionary sacrifice in place of my daughter, yet he did not receive the same punishment that I had planned for her. Instead, he received a punishment that I felt was appropriate, and which was satisfactory to me. In the same way, Jesus made a substitutionary sacrifice in our place, but He did not receive the same punishment which the Father has planned for sinners. Instead, He received a punishment which the Father felt was appropriate and which was satisfactory to the Father.

Now let's consider what it means to "be made sin":

"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:21)
​

As we have seen, Jesus did not become a sinner on the cross, Jesus became sin for us. They are not the same thing. Here is what some Bible commentaries say about 2 Corinthians 5:21 (above):

"sin--not a sin offering, which would destroy the antithesis to "righteousness," and would make "sin" be used in different senses in the same sentence: not a sinful person, which would be untrue, and would require in the antithesis "righteous men," not "righteousness"; but "sin," that is, the representative Sin-bearer (vicariously) of the aggregate sin of all men past, present, and future. The sin of the world is one, therefore the singular, not the plural, is used; though its manifestations are manifold (John 1:29). "Behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the SIN of the world." Compare "made a curse for us," Galatians 3:13." (Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary )

"He made to be sin (amartian epoihsen). The words "to be" are not in the Greek. "Sin" here is the substantive, not the verb. God "treated as sin" the one "who knew no sin."" (Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament )
​

What this means is that fallen humans have all committed sins, but Jesus became sin for us. The point here is that "committing" sin and "being" sin are not the same thing, so we shouldn't expect them to receive the same punishment. As the commentaries above point out, Jesus did not become a sinner, He became sin (He became the representative sin-bearer for the world). As Bible scholars sometimes put it, Jesus was made to be sin for us in a substitutional way, but He was never made to be sinful in a personal way.

Jesus never sinned during His life on earth, and He did not become a sinner on the cross. He paid our ransom by becoming our Substitute, and His ruthless torture and brutal execution on the cross perfectly satisfied the Father's righteous requirement.

The Father did not punish Jesus as a sinner, but instead the Father punished sin itself through Jesus' atoning sacrifice.

Since Jesus did not become a sinner on the cross, He did not experience the same punishment that sinners deserve, and sinners will not experience what Jesus experienced.

There is really is nothing in the Scriptures that teach that His spirit was made sin. While I might be able to accept that He experienced a separation from God due to having borne our sins (in light of Matthew 27:46), I can find nothing in the Scriptures that would teach that our Lord's spirit became sin. The plain truth is that according to 1 Pet. 2:24, He bore our sins in His body.

It is true that Paul tells us that He was made sin (2 Cor. 5:21). Many scholars have been divided over the literal meaning of the phrase made sin. Some have attempted to soften the meaning by saying that Jesus was only a sin-offering, but several scholars dispute such an interpretation.[10] Therefore, while there is still some mystery as to how Jesus became sin, we can find no statement that His "spirit" became sin.



Whether it was all imputation or some level of infusion, God saw Jesus the same way, as Martin Luther said -- "the worst sinner in the world".

​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hebrews 10:26-29 KJV
26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Therefore the sacrificial blood of the atonement of our Covenant must be innocent, pure, spotless, without blemish, undefiled, HOLY AND WITHOUT SIN.

Indeed - and we see plainly in Christ that his innocence led him to experience something radically different from how all others are treated.

The punishment for sin is eternal torment in hell......so if Christ took the punishment that we deserved then why didn't He have to spend eternity in hell? In all actuality, it turns out that the Bible does not say that Jesus took the punishment that we deserved (as we'll see in a moment). Recall that Jesus took upon Himself all of the sins of all people throughout all time (Romans 5:6-8, 18-19, 1 Timothy 2:5-6, 1 John 2:2), and He endured the agony of bearing all of those sins. So let's think about that for a moment. When Jesus experienced the agony of bearing everyone's sins, was that the same punishment that you and I deserved? Obviously not, because after a sinner (i.e. an unsaved person) dies then he will be punished for his own sins, but the Bible never says that he will bear the punishment for everyone's sins. In other words, Jesus collectively paid for everyone's sins, which is different than what we would experience if we died without receiving salvation. Jesus did not receive the same punishment that we deserved.

Also, notice that no matter what punishment will be received by sinners after they die, Jesus did not experience that punishment. For example, some people believe that sinners will suffer in hell for all eternity, yet Jesus did not go to hell for all eternity. Other people believe that sinners will suffer in hell for a period of time and then be totally annihilated, yet Jesus was never annihilated (and never will be). Some people believe that sinners will suffer in hell for a period of time and then they will all receive salvation, yet Jesus did not suffer in hell (see below) and He never needed to receive salvation because He was never unsaved. So no matter what will happen to sinners after they die, notice that Jesus did not experience what they will experience. What it boils down to is that Jesus did not receive the same punishment that we deserved.

Now let's take a look at numerous passages which tell us what Jesus did for us:

Romans 3:23: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
Romans 3:24: "and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Romans 3:25: "God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--"

Romans 5:6: "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly."

Romans 5:7: "Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die."

Romans 5:8: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Romans 5:9: "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"
Romans 5:10: "For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"

Romans 5:11: "Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation."

Romans 5:18: "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

Romans 5:19: "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

Romans 6:10: "The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God."

1 Corinthians 6:20: "you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."

1 Corinthians 7:23: "You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men."

Galatians 1:3: "Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,"

Galatians 1:4: "who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,"

Galatians 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Galatians 3:13: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.""

Galatians 4:4: "But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,"

Galatians 4:5: "to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons."

Colossians 1:19: "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,"
Colossians 1:20: "and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."


Colossians 1:21: "Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of
your evil behavior."

Colossians 1:22: "But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--"

1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,"
1 Timothy 2:6: "who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time."

Titus 2:13: "while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,"

Titus 2:14: "who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good."

Hebrews 2:17: "For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people."

Hebrews 9:11: "When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation."
Hebrews 9:12: "He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption."


Hebrews 9:13: "The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean."
Hebrews 9:14: "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!"

Hebrews 9:15: "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant."

Hebrews 9:24: "For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence."
Hebrews 9:25: "Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own."


Hebrews 9:26: "Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself."
Hebrews 9:27: "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"


Hebrews 9:28: "so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Hebrews 10:9: "Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second."

Hebrews 10:10: "And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Hebrews 10:11: "Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins."

Hebrews 10:12: "But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God."

1 Peter 1:18: "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,"

1 Peter 1:19: "but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect."

1 Peter 2:24: "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed."

1 John 1:7: "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."

1 John 2:1: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."

1 John 2:2: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

1 John 4:10: "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins."
​

Based on the above passages, here is what Christ did for us:

• "redemption ... came by Christ Jesus"
• "sacrifice of atonement"
• "died for the ungodly"
• "While we were still sinners, Christ died for us"
• "we have now been justified by his blood"
• "we [are] saved from God's wrath through [Jesus]"
• "we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son"
• "through [Jesus] we have now received reconciliation"
• "the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men"
• "through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous"
• "died to sin once for all"
• "you were bought at a price"
• "You were bought at a price"
• "gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age"
• "gave himself for [us]"
• "redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us"
• "God sent his Son ... to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons"
• "and through [Jesus] to reconcile to himself all things ... by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross"
• "he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death"
• "gave himself as a ransom for all men"
• "gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify [us]"
• "[made] atonement for the sins of the people"
• "entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption"
• "offered himself unblemished to God"
• "died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant"
• "entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence"
• "appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself"
• "was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people"
• "we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all"
• "offered for all time one sacrifice for sins"
• "[we were redeemed] with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect"
• "bore our sins in his body on the tree"
• "the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin"
• "the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world"
• "an atoning sacrifice for our sins"

Notice that nowhere do those passages say that Jesus experienced the same punishment that we deserved. Instead, those passages tell us that Jesus' atoning sacrifice was a ransom which redeemed us and reconciled us to God. What it boils down to is that Jesus did not receive the same punishment that we deserved.

EDIT-PS ~ Seeing how this is about to go off-topic, (though technically it is not off-topic at this point because of what is stated in Matthew 12:43-45 and Luke 11:24-26) I will leave you the last word.

​

Blessings -

 

[Gxg (G²)]

..being "firstborn" is a supremacy position for without His resurrection we could not have ours.

Supremacy position is one of the concepts behind "firstborn" but not the sole one - as the early Jewish world saw Christ as both being Supreme as well as the first of His kind/the forerunner of others to come in the same manner - in addition to be one born back from the dead.

Hebrews 1/Hebrews 1:5

The Son Superior to Angels

1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father[a]"[b]? Or again,
"I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son"[c]? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
"Let all God's angels worship him."[d] 7In speaking of the angels he says,
"He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire."[e] 8But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."[f] 10He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

​

Christ's physical begettal and birth (Gennao) were unique. No other person—ever—has been begotten by the Spirit of the Father in a human mother's womb. In this sense He is—and always shall be—"ONLY-begotten." But many have been "begotten again" (I Peter 1:3) to ultimately become—through the process of spiritual growth and birth—the spirit-born sons of God. Christ did not grow into spiritual perfection after He was resurrected, but during His human lifetime, setting us the example, being made perfect (Hebrews 2:10; 5:8-9)

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he [Jesus] might be the firstborn among many brethren" (verse 29).

​

Now compare with Romans 1:3-4: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to be the Son of God ... by the resurrection from the dead."

Jesus was, in the human flesh—His first birth—a descendant of David, and, by the resurrection from the dead—(born again)—the Son of God, now no longer human, but composed of spirit—a Spirit being. He thus became the first so born of many brethren who shall be born again at the time of the resurrection of those who are Christ's.

Of course we understand, and so did Paul in writing the above, that Jesus was also the Son of God while in the human flesh. Though born of a human woman, He was sired by God. But this is comparing the two births—the one from Mary, as descended from the human David—the other, by His resurrection to glory, as Son of God by His resurrection, in the same manner we may be.

Emphatically this does not imply that Jesus was a sinner needing salvation. He was the pioneer, setting us the example, that we, too, may be born of God.

Speaking of Christ, Paul wrote, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature…And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence” (1:15, 18). Christ is the firstborn “from the dead.”This verse states that one’s new birth occurs after death—and involves returning from the dead. Once again, accept what the Bible says, without adding to or subtracting from it. Verse 15 uses the phrase “firstborn of every creature,” thereby adding double emphasis to Paul’s statement—and meaning. Paul wrote to the Romans, “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren” (8:29). God intends on having “many” sons—Christ’s “brethren,” born later in His plan. If anyone is designated to be first, others must follow, or first has no meaning. It must be related to something else later. In the case of salvation, many will follow.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I have serious problems with that verse of Heb 5:5. If Yeshua was God in the flesh, why on earth would he need to learn obedience? Didn't he already know all about it?

I think it is significant to see the reality of Divine Mystery - and noting where the scriptures point out that God in the Flesh doesn't mean that in his human side he was unable to develop and grow.

Luke 2:51-52
51Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.


Infused with the Grace of God (2:39-40)

"When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him." (2:40)
​

 

[yedida]

Who said it was to be understood otherwise? Again, arguing against what wasn't stated is your tendency - as noting where the Father turned his back on the Son for a time isn't the same as saying Christ was ultimately forsaken (as your claim per Psalm 22 or other scriptures noting where Christ/the Father were one or that the Father always hears the Son).

As the High Rabbi and teacher of all things, many Bible scholars believe our Lord used a technique known as remez from the cross. Remez is a Jewish rabbinical technique that gives only a section of Scripture while assuming that the student will know all of the Scripture around that line. It is thought that Jesus used this many times throughout His life on earth. For example, the name “Son of Man” is an obvious remez to Daniel and even Christ writing in the sand is a possible remez to Jeremiah 17:13. We must remember that Christ is the word – the Word made flesh. He is all that Scripture points to and everything He did was tied to Scripture. So it is no surprise that the sayings of Christ from the cross are all tied to Scripture.

In Scripture, “forsake” almost always means that God allows His children to fall into the hands of enemies (all under His sovereignty). So to forsake Biblically implies more of coming under judgement than the idea of turning away. However, we must also understand that in a sense God did turn away – by turning all His goodness away from Christ but focusing intensely all of His righteous wrath fully on Christ. This is no doubt an accurate picture of hell. What the Bible tells us took place is all the wrath and anger of God that we deserve was focused on Christ on the cross. The Father was pouring out the wrath we deserve on His Son as the darkness of judgment fell on the world. All the while Christ relied on the Father and knew that He was with Him even though He walked through the valley of the shadow of death.

When Christ cries out "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me!" He doesn't mean that the man Jesus was somehow stripped of His divinity, or that the Father and the Son were cleaved into two separate individuals. Jesus' God-nature was just as inseparably a part of Him as His human nature. No, Jesus was first of all calling attention to the prophecy that He was fulfilling at that time. Psalm 22 begins with those exact words, and the Jews referred to specific Psalms by their first verse. Christ was declaring His mission by pointing to a prophecy of His own suffering. Not only did the hearers miss this point, but they thought He was calling Elijah

It is true that in some sense the protection that the Father had afforded Christ in His earthly ministry was now absent. Several times previously, there were those who gathered around Jesus to take His life (Luke 4:29-30, John 8:59). Jesus always escaped unscathed. Satan even recognized protection was a promise from Psalm 91 and he quotes that promise to Jesus in Matthew 4:6, " 'He will give His angels charge concerning You' and 'On their hands they will bear You up, lest you strike Your foot against a stone.' " However, we must be cautious and understand that this withdrawal of Holy protection was *planned*. It did not come as a surprise to Christ. In the garden, Jesus prayed fervently to the Father because He knew the suffering He would entail. Jesus even said in Matthew 26:53 that He could call legions of angels to deliver Him. So the suffering and atonement wasn't a random forsaking of God, but the voluntary act of Jesus in taking our punishment and feeling God's wrath - the seperation that comes from sin.

The verse itself, while quoted by Jesus from Psalm 22, and it's good to try to understand it by exegetically get a clear understanding of Psalm 22, but the force is definitely on "forsaken" as the way Jesus used it on the cross. Jesus did not quote Psalm 22 in a footnote way as if to say: "study the whole exegetical historical background of Psalm 22 to get how I really feel on the cross", but rather He quoted Psalm 22 to highlight a realistic, actual, event that happened to Him on the cross: that He's forsaken by God. This forsaken is real, it's actual, and it must be maintain for it signifies that God has pronounced real judgment against Sin, and not just sugarcoated Sin away simply because Jesus bared its burden. "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?” is the first word on the matter not the last. It is an expression that ultimately yields to a confidence that God has not forsaken the psalmist. Thus, Psalm 22 is clearly in the first category and thus is distinct from the Psalms which clearly express forsakeness.

Surely, God is pouring out his wrath on the Servant. But the Servant is set up as the offering and the scape goat of Lev. 16. The scape goat dies in the wilderness (lit. the land of cutting off or the cut off land). Whether God is present at that moment or not is not made clear (some find reference to demons here, but I’m not sure about this), but again the emphasis is on “alone.” Biblical theology wise, there is both continuity and discontinuity with David. Regarding discontinuity, David never dies in his distress, but his Greater Son undergoes death for his people. Davidic Psalms of this sort always stop just short of the death of David (Ps. 18 is classic). But Christ dies and so undergoes the greater Messianic woes of death (Acts 2:24), which also makes his deliverance from death much greater than any other deliverance of the Davidic King in the past (Acts 2:29ff). In type, David foreshadows the woes of the coming Messiah, but the antitype underwent greater pain and suffering than the type. The type felt death, whereas the antitype died.

Both the Father and Son knew from all eternity that Jesus would become the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world (Acts 15:18). It is unthinkable that the Son of God might question what is happening or be perplexed when His Father’s loving presence departs. But why would God bruise His own Son (Isa. 53:10)? The Father is not capricious, malicious, or being merely didactic. The real purpose is penal; it is the just punishment for the sin of Christ’s people. “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Cor. 5:21).
Christ was made sin for us, dear believers. Among all the mysteries of salvation, this little word “for” exceeds all. This small word illuminates our darkness and unites Jesus Christ with sinners. Christ was acting on behalf of His people as their representative and for their benefit. With Jesus as our substitute, God’s wrath is satisfied and God can justify those who believe in Jesus (Rom. 3:26). Christ’s penal suffering, therefore, is vicarious — He suffered on our behalf. He did not simply share our forsakenness, but He saved us from it. He endured it for us, not with us. You are immune to condemnation (Rom. 8:1) and to God’s anathema (Gal. 3:13) because Christ bore it for you in that outer darkness. Golgotha secured our immunity, not mere sympathy.


And none of that, as you fail to understand, has anything to do with Yeshua being offered up as the sacrifice - perfect and innocent by the Father - and being High priest as well (Hebrews 7-10). Again, scripture with scripture is what you need to develop more.
Poor argument on your part - as the Blood of CHRIST was accepted alongside his sacrifice due to the fact that he WAS pure and thus could be a fitting substitute.

Jesus blood washes away my sin, it is not the sin.

Leviticus 16:21-22
21"Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22"The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.
​

The goat has the sin, the iniquities, ON its head. The goat is not the sin, the goat is the sin bearer. In the OT this had to be done over and over again each year because the sin could only be placed on the goat -- it could never carry all the sins of all time. Jesus was made to be sin for us, He became the sin, and He carried it all way for all time. This is the key difference in whether Jesus simply bore the sin on His head, or bore the sin in His body. But as for the goat, it was not the sin itself, but rather had the sin layed on its head.

Leviticus 16:9,15
9"And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering.

15"Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering,
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2 Cor 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (NKJV)
​

God, The Father, made Him Who knew no sin, sin for us. The word 'made' (poievw -- poieo) can mean

• "to make", or
• "to do";

Jesus did not "act out, perform, do" sin. He was made "produced, formed, fashioned, caused, prepared to be, rendered as" sin (by the Father), in other words sin was transferred to Him, but not superficially laid upon Him, but rather He became (see supporting verse in Galations 3:13: "...being made a curse for us" [ givnomai -- ginomai] to become, come into existence, receive being). in Leviticus 16:21 we see Aaron "putting [the sins] upon the head of the [scape]goat". In the Hebrew this reads more plainly as:

all-of transgressions-of them to all-of sins-of them and he-gives them on head-of hairy-goat.
​

In the Hebrew Aaron "gives, adds, applies, ascribes, assigns, delivers, renders, thrusts" the sins to the goat. The word for 'putting' is not a word for simply placement upon, but rather a word of transferrance. So even the picture in the Old Testament shows, in its original language, as opposed to the English which can be mis-read, that the sins were transferred to the scapegoat. The blood was poured out in the sacrifice of life. Sacrificial goat. Jesus dying on the cross. Blood then has to be taken away. Scapegoat. Jesus taking away our sin to the uninhabitable place. High Priest sprinkles the blood on the alter and mercy seat. Our High Priest, Christ Jesus, does the same in Heaven (Hebrews 9). It's all there. It's all pictured. The typology is complete.


Taken from Leviticus 16:1-34, what we have here is:

1. Aaron dressed in a holy garb and washed, officiating the ceremony.
2. Two goats chosen specifically from the congregation of the children of Israel, both to be for sin, one as a sacrifice and the other as scapegoat.
3. Lots cast to differentiate the goats - one for sacrifice to YHWH, the other as scapegoat.
4. A suitable man to carry the scapegoat into the wilderness.
5. Sacrificing YHWH's goat as a sin offering.
6. Putting all the sins on the scape goat.
7. Having the suitable man carry the goat off into the wilderness to release it.
8. And having the suitable man wash himself and his clothes before returning to the camp.

Let's find the parallels in that with Yeshua:


Yeshua filled the office of Aaron, the goats and the suitable man here, along with the lamb, best of YHWH and best of Man This passage aligns Yeshua with the High Priesthood that Aaron served in ( Hebrews 5:1-10 )


Jesus was the sacrificial goat AND the scapegoat of Leviticus 16, d. He died and poured out His blood in sacrifice AND he carried the sin away from the altar into the uninhabitable place. Both the offering and the sin.


Again, gotta do better in understanding logic and scripture since the scriptures don't support you at any point when noting directly that Christ became SIN for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God as the apostles noted repeatedly.

IMHO, You're outside of Hebrew perspective at this point/on the fringes with the argument and prayerfully, that can change.

Remez is "hints," meaning that there is more to a verse than a literal meaning - not saying a portion of a scripture to make someone think of the rest of it, though it may require the student to search out other passages to understand what it is hinting at. Just a little FYI.