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Neo-Darwinism is National Disgrace

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by supersport, Aug 31, 2006.

  1. And-U-Say

    And-U-Say Veteran

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    I think you made up a whole bunch of parts.
     
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  2. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum

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    I have heard that before and it still doesn't register with me how this is some kind of proof:

    "Retroviral infections of the germline have the potential to episodically alter gene function and genome structure during the course of evolution. Horizontal transmissions between species have been proposed, but little evidence exists for such events in the human/great ape lineage of evolution. Based on analysis of finished BAC chimpanzee genome sequence, we characterize a retroviral element (Pan troglodytes endogenous retrovirus 1 [PTERV1]) that has become integrated in the germline of African great ape and Old World monkey species but is absent from humans and Asian ape genomes...

    ...Since the divergence of chimpanzee and human (5–7 million years ago), only one major family of human endogenous retroviruses (HERVK10) has remained active, and it has generated only three full-length copies with the open reading frame still intact [3]. While new insertions of endogenous retroviral sequences have been described [8,9], most of these are thought to have originated from other previously integrated retroelements [10] or longstanding associations with rare source virus [11]. This apparent wane in activity has led to the view that LTR retroposons have had a history of declining activity in the human lineage and are “teetering on the brink of extinction”

    Lineage-specific expansions of retroviral insertions within the genomes of African great apes but not humans and orangutans.

    There is only one major family of HERVs detected and they are nearly extinct. You keep doing this silly victory dance about something that has absolutly nothing signifigant to add. Do you have some kind of a reason why I should be interested?

    For one thing molecular clocks are notoriously unreliable, as are projections over 31 million years. One of the things that stuck me while trying to find out who started this line of reasoning is that their estimates are wrong:

    This flatly contradicts the other genomic evidence and you are going to run into this problem sooner or later. When comparing the genomes of chimpanzees and humans they diverge by 35 million single nucleotides and 5 million indels (indels and insertions) that total 90 Mb (megabases) total. The mutation rate is about 10^8 comes to about 65 million nucleotides that are expected to diverge given the time frame.

    "For starters, we should be able to predict how different the genomes should be. The seven million years of evolution in each lineage represents about 350,000 generations in each (assuming 20 years per generation). How many mutations happen per generation? Estimating mutation rates is not easy (at least without assuming common descent): it is hard to find a few changed nucleotides out of 3 billion that have not changed. By studying new cases of genetic diseases, individuals whose parents' do not have the disease, however, it is possible to identify and count new mutations, at least in a small number of genes. Using this technique, it has been estimated[1] that the single-base substitution rate for humans is approximately 1.7 x 10^-8 substitutions/nucleotide/generation, that is, 17 changes per billion nucleotides. That translates into ~100 new mutations for every human birth. (17 x 3, for the 3 billion nucleotides in the genome, x 2 for the two genome copies we each carry). At that rate, in 350,000 generations a copy of the human genome should have accumulated about 18 million mutations, while the chimpanzee genome should have accumulated a similar number.

    The evolutionary prediction, then, is that there should be roughly 36 million single-base differences between humans and chimpanzees. The actual number could be determined when both the chimpanzee and human genomes had been completely sequenced. When the two genomes were compared[2], thirty-five million substitutions were found, in remarkably good agreement with the evolutionary expectation. Fortuitously good agreement, in fact: the uncertainty on most of the numbers used in the estimate is large enough that it took luck to come that close."​

    http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=26036339&postcount=51

    The question comes to mind, what about the five million indels?

    Anything that is the same must indicate a common ancestor while differences are attributed to positive selection. Nevermind that they have no clue how the human brain grew exponentially from that of an ape. The more simular the more closely related based on an assumption well before the evidence is in.


    Ape fossils are found in Africa, that is the only place you will find them except they are all supposed to be human ancestors.

    They are desperate for a transitional since they don't have a genetic basis.


    Every ape found is called a human ancestor, it's as simple as that.
     
  3. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    The Bible says to judge nothing and no one before their time. If it is a deciding factor then God will do a work in their lives to bring them to repentance.

    It is important, but I would not say that it is the ONLY thing that is important.

    I do not talk about it much, but I am a pentacostal. We believe that there is a difference between those who are saved and those who are "rapture ready".

    The only people who can be "saved" are those who have been washed and cleansed in the Blood of Jesus.

    Ephes. 1:7
    In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

    There is nothing more important then to "save the lost at any cost".

    Yes, it is important to excape from deception and delusion. Evolution is not the only trap people can fall into, there are others also.

    Remember evolution is truth and error mixed together and the error is enough to keep you from being where you need to be with God. We are to be Holy, Perfect, & Sanctifed (set apart) before God. He would not tell us to do something that we were not able to do.

    Matthew 5:48
    Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
     
  4. rmwilliamsll

    rmwilliamsll avid reader

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    There is only one major family of HERVs detected and they are nearly extinct. You keep doing this silly victory dance about something that has absolutly nothing signifigant to add. Do you have some kind of a reason why I should be interested?


    why should i be interested?
    you do know the names of the 3 retroviruses that are currently active in the human population?
     
  5. RichardT

    RichardT Contributor

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    I bet you anything this is in FSTDT
     
  6. shadowmage36

    shadowmage36 Iä! Iä! Cthulhu ftaghn!

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    :crossrc:
    I believe in God, the Father, Almighty,
    Creator of Heaven and Earth,
    Of all that is seen and unseen.
    And in Jesus Christ, His only son,
    Eternally begotten from the father,
    God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
    Begotten not made, one in Being with the Father, through whom all things were made.
    For us men and for our salvation came down from the heaven
    By the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and become man.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    He suffered, died, and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures.
    He ascended to heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    And his kingdom will have no end.
    And in the Holy Spirit. the Lord, the Giver of Life,Who proceeds from the Father and the Son
    With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,and the life of the world to come.

    :amen:

    I also believe that evolution of species occurs. I have no problem reconciling this. There is no doubt in my mind that all of science is correct. God would not give us a reasoning mind, and expect us to deny everything that it told us. That would be cruel, and ours is a loving God.

    It is insulting to me and to all other Christians who believe in science to make claims like those you do. I'm only going to say this once:

    YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME, OR FOR ANYONE ELSE.

    YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT OR HOW I OR ANYONE ELSE BELIEVES.

    STOP MAKING HATEFUL GENERALIZATIONS.

    TAKE THE TIME TO ACTUALLY LEARN SOMETHING OF THAT WHICH YOU DECIDE TO ARGUE ABOUT. IT MAKES YOUR ARGUMENTS FAR MORE CREDIBLE.

    I am sick and F-ing tired of people making generalizations about Christians who believe in evolution. No matter what anyone says, it is perfectly possible to believe in the Virgin Birth and Resurrection of Christ, while also believing that humanity evolved from early primates over the course of millions of years, which in turn evolved from earlier mammals, and so on back to the first self-replicating molecules.

    If you have a problem with my believing this, that is your right as an American, and I respect that.

    BUT I WILL NOT TOLERATE BLATANT INSULTS AND RIDICULE OF MY OWN BELIEFS.

    While I may disagree with creationists on their scientific beliefs and total ignorance and refusal to even attempt to learn anything about the subjects they debate (not a generalization. This statement is based on personal experience), and will ridicule that until the cows come home, I will NOT, under any circumstances, ridicule another's religious beliefs. Scientific knowledge is something easily gained, if you choose. Faith is harder. I can respect that.

    But only if you respect mine.

    A clarification: I do not consider anything that is pseudoscience of any sort to be part of religious beliefs. Science and religion are separate entities. Neither should have any part of the other. Ergo, religions that purport to have scientific beliefs do not fall under my umbrella of respect. They are degrading to both science and religion, and that is something that I also cannot tolerate.

    And I'm done.


     
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  7. Ryal Kane

    Ryal Kane Senior Veteran

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    Since there seems to be no point in serious discussion with you supersport, I'll simply offer this.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Anovah

    Anovah Senior Member

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    The Wendys girl?

    RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN

    [​IMG]
     
  9. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    So did God Create the Heavens and the Earth, or did mutations create the Heavens and the Earth? It has to be one or the other, it can not be both.
     
  10. Anovah

    Anovah Senior Member

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    I don't know that the ToE can speak to the origin of the Universe.
     
  11. Maxwell511

    Maxwell511 Contributor

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    :scratch:

    I think my joke post made more sense than this.
     
  12. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    Oh sure, maybe it made more sense, but there is always the parady factor to take into consideration.
     
  13. EvoDan

    EvoDan Senior Member

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    It almost certainly is not either.



    (Mutations making the heavens?????? :scratch: )
     
  14. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    If you talk to Hawkins it does, because he believed that life began from an alien seed that landed here.

    Perhaps the ones that somehow managed to excape being eaten by the "black holes" :)
     
  15. Maxwell511

    Maxwell511 Contributor

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    Are you saying you are a parody?:)
     
  16. EvoDan

    EvoDan Senior Member

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    ...and the Universe did not form until life did?? :scratch:
     
  17. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    I thought everyone knew we were made up of star dust. So really we are just recycled material.
     
  18. EvoDan

    EvoDan Senior Member

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    I think this icon :scratch: was made just for replying to John.
     
  19. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    Ask Hawkins, it is his theory.
     
  20. EvoDan

    EvoDan Senior Member

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    link?
     
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