Need prayers/ advice

[Columba7]

Sorry you feel that way. But I also don't care for the insults. I'm not oversimplifying anything. Each thing I've said you claim is more complex...really? So going for 1,000 years with a conciliar church in which all patriarchs were equal and where Rome had a primacy of honor and then suddenly 1,900 years later claiming that the Pope is infallible and universally supreme over the entire Church Catholic, you don't find that a tad odd? Ever heard of Keenan's Catechism? Ever hear of the Donation of Constantine forgery that was used to back up these bogus claims? I don't appreciate your charge that I'm speaking with polemics. I think maybe you're in a tender spot where you WANT to believe this stuff, but you don't want to really critically think about it, with all due respect. You may not like what I'm saying, but you need to hear it. If you have a church that takes 1900 years to finally proclaim a patriarch infallible and you need a host of anachronisms, forgeries, and PR to make it happen, you're in trouble.

Okay, I will bite, just this once. I did not mean what I said as an insult. I meant it as an observation based on the content of what you said.

Your first oversimplification is taking for granted that the Bishop of Rome's primacy was solely one of honor. The historical record is much more ambiguous on the issue and there is evidence both for and against your position. As for Rome's declaration of infallibility, it would not be the first time the Church, be it Roman or Orthodox, has declared something long after the origins of Christianity.

As for trying to force myself to be Roman Catholic, the opposite is probably true. I NEVER felt a spiritual pull to Orthodoxy like I did Catholicism. I actually chose Orthodoxy because, at the time, it was easier. I would be able to use contraception, I wouldn't feel so obligated to attend services every week, and because Orthodoxy isn't so quick to define all their doctrines and rules I had more flexibility in what I could and couldn't believe. Really what I am seeing is that I hardened my heart towards Catholicism and never gave it a fair chance.

As for not thinking critically, I spent 5 years seriously studying Orthodoxy before converting. How long did you study? Hell, I went and got a MA degree in Early Church History because I was so obsessed with the question. I don't re-enter this deliberation lightly. Thanks for the psychoanalysis though. How much do I owe you?

As an Orthodox Christian, do you understand WHY we used leavened bread for the Eucharist? Do you understand why it is absurdity to go back in time and how it's a step in the wrong direction making it back into unleavened bread? How is that polemical or oversimplified?

I understand that, historically, what sort of bread a church used was a regional thing and it was never dogmatically proclaimed that all churches have to used leavened bread. I am not sure what you are getting at.

What's polemical or oversimplified about bad theological nonsense like indulgences or purgatory?

It is one thing to throw out words like "bad." It is another to actually engage with the sophisticated theological and philosophical efforts that have explored these topics. I would also be careful what you condemn. Orthodox churches haven't been free of supporting theological innovations either.

I'm assuming since you became Orthodox, you've read the Fathers. Would it be overly-simplistic of me to say that you won't find narry a word of most modern Catholic theology in their writings but you WILL read Holy Orthodoxy there?

It isn't that simple. I think you can find elements of both in the fathers and I think both modern Orthodoxy and modern Catholicism extend their dogmas and worship far beyond what the ECF's said.

Do you really want to enter into a modernistic mess like the Mass with all the hand-holding kumbaya, the priest facing the people instead of the altar, strumming guitars, communion in the hand by a bunch of "extraordinary ministers" of the Eucharist instead of only by a priest, seeing "altar girls" while there is no incense? Do you want to sit in a pew as a spectator at Mass or be using your entire body to praise God? Do you want to follow the scholastics of the middle ages or the Fathers?

Pot. Kettle. Black. Feel free to continue wearing rose colored glasses when you look at Orthodoxy, but in all fairness you should leave them on when considering Catholicism. Most of what you just mentioned I consider small-t traditions not essential to the church.

I would like to see you throw these accusations at a seasoned Catholic thinker. That would be a show. See if you can arrange such a meeting. I will foot the bill.

 

[prodromos]

Your first oversimplification is taking for granted that the Bishop of Rome's primacy was solely one of honor. The historical record is much more ambiguous on the issue and there is evidence both for and against your position. As for Rome's declaration of infallibility, it would not be the first time the Church, be it Roman or Orthodox, has declared something long after the origins of Christianity.

If it was true, then Rome was extremely remiss for not using it's bishop's infallibility to settle serious issues in the early church. No one ever suggested using the Pope's infallibility to settle the issues because no one believed the Pope was infallible in any sense. Papal infallibility is false doctrine, historically and theologically.

I've probably used my apostrophes incorrectly above. I never did understand how to use them properly.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have thought about switching from OCA to Greek. Since it is difficult to get ahold of my priest is it something I should just do, or do you think I should try to talk to my parish priest about it, even if it takes a while?

well, since it is all Orthodoxy, if the Greek parish seems like a better fit, then I would go there. I would inform your OCA priest that you are going, pray, and check out the Greek.

 

[ArmyMatt]

As for Rome's declaration of infallibility, it would not be the first time the Church, be it Roman or Orthodox, has declared something long after the origins of Christianity.

while this point is true, I would say that you never see infallibility in the early centuries. in fact, if you look at how the bishops acted toward each other and how the early Church handled heresy and problems, you see the opposite.

 

[truefiction1]

I'm sorry. This is a big problem. Go to the Church where it's most difficult to like the people, and learn to care about them. That's the Church we belong in.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well, the psychoanalysis comment and the way you speak in this post says much. You're very angry. I think you're too angry to think clearly right now. When you're in the midst of making things personal and attacking posters, it shows not a willingness to listen and prayerfully open oneself to Christ, it seems like prideful debate. That's fine.

I think your post says a few things. First of all, you probably shouldn't be Orthodox if you just became Orthodox so you can contracept. You tell me you're a theologian of sorts and yet you joined a major world religion because you want to contracept. Ok. Odd. But fair enough. And I guess what also comes to mind is if you possess a Masters in Early Church Theology, well, why do you need to come on here to a mere forum for answers?

To answer your question about how long I studied to join this faith? Well, with a fiery vigor and passion to find the Truth I studied for around 12 years to be quite honest. You're not the only one who has had theology college course work and who owns a vast library of Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, and non-Christian literature.

P.S. nobody is psychoanalyzing you. You don't owe me anything except maybe an apology for making not-so-subtle attacks on my intelligence and theological acumen. Your posts always charge me with being a bumbling boob. The "seasoned Catholic" thinker debate invite was a good example.

Orthodoxy is about humility.

I write to you on here because you remind me a lot of myself about 5-6 years ago. I was into Catholic apologetics (yeah, a dummy like me, imagine!) to the point that I could've been the president of the Scott Hahn Association of California. I was a zealot, a Pharisee, a fanatic. I was into making snobby statements just like "pot. kettle. black." I also didn't know where I belonged. I also tried to brag to my opponents how much I knew and how long I studied. Sounds familiar. I also was sarcastic and nasty. And I LOVED the legalism of Catholicism and how I could utilize it to blast all enemies.

I'm not looking at Orthodoxy through silly lenses at all. I didn't enter into it lightly. Ask anyone here. I've come a long way in accepting my former errors. I was once into papist apologetics. Over it now. You say Orthodoxy has changed some things and somehow that puts her in the same category as Catholicism. Hardly. Yes, the Divine Liturgy used to be 3-5 hours long in most if not many parts. Now it is around 2 hours, yes. Wording has indeed changed through the years, often with things like "by land, sea, and air" because times have changed. Other aspects have changed, too, but the major nuts and bolts are there whereas Catholicism has removed most of the guts of the liturgy that make it so special and holy. Perhaps the difference between you and I is that I actually was a Catholic for 30 years of my life, and you've flirted with it from afar. I've been Catholic and Orthodox, so I think I have more perspective. Studying it in college or in books from afar is different than being Catholic and living it, not taking away from your knowledge or anything, just saying, lex orandi/lex credendi does matter.

I can only say that if you haven't found Christ in a deep way in the Holy Orthodox Church, the One, True, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that Christ formed on this Earth, then I don't know what to tell you. You can go look for it among schismatics with a history of innovation, pedophilia, scandals, modernism, Islamic pandering, scholasticism, legalism, Pope Honorius, the Donation of Constantine, the contradictions between the declarations regarding the Tridentine Mass at Trent and Vatican II, the mentality of trying to define everything with Aristotlean mindsets, and reivionist history, or you can stay Orthodox. I get the feeling you're ready to swim the Tiber. Good luck with that, but down drown yourself in the mucky waters of the schism.....

Okay, I will bite, just this once. I did not mean what I said as an insult. I meant it as an observation based on the content of what you said.

Your first oversimplification is taking for granted that the Bishop of Rome's primacy was solely one of honor. The historical record is much more ambiguous on the issue and there is evidence both for and against your position. As for Rome's declaration of infallibility, it would not be the first time the Church, be it Roman or Orthodox, has declared something long after the origins of Christianity.

As for trying to force myself to be Roman Catholic, the opposite is probably true. I NEVER felt a spiritual pull to Orthodoxy like I did Catholicism. I actually chose Orthodoxy because, at the time, it was easier. I would be able to use contraception, I wouldn't feel so obligated to attend services every week, and because Orthodoxy isn't so quick to define all their doctrines and rules I had more flexibility in what I could and couldn't believe. Really what I am seeing is that I hardened my heart towards Catholicism and never gave it a fair chance.

As for not thinking critically, I spent 5 years seriously studying Orthodoxy before converting. How long did you study? Hell, I went and got a MA degree in Early Church History because I was so obsessed with the question. I don't re-enter this deliberation lightly. Thanks for the psychoanalysis though. How much do I owe you?

I understand that, historically, what sort of bread a church used was a regional thing and it was never dogmatically proclaimed that all churches have to used leavened bread. I am not sure what you are getting at.

It is one thing to throw out words like "bad." It is another to actually engage with the sophisticated theological and philosophical efforts that have explored these topics. I would also be careful what you condemn. Orthodox churches haven't been free of supporting theological innovations either.

It isn't that simple. I think you can find elements of both in the fathers and I think both modern Orthodoxy and modern Catholicism extend their dogmas and worship far beyond what the ECF's said.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Feel free to continue wearing rose colored glasses when you look at Orthodoxy, but in all fairness you should leave them on when considering Catholicism. Most of what you just mentioned I consider small-t traditions not essential to the church.

I would like to see you throw these accusations at a seasoned Catholic thinker. That would be a show. See if you can arrange such a meeting. I will foot the bill.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm not one with a ton of experience here, but one thing I would say right away is that if your needs are not being met in the OCA parish, and there's a Greek available, then I would first immediately try the other parish.

Hopefully, the priest there will have more time for you, and you can make an appointment to sit down with him and discuss some of these things as they relate to your family particularly. That could possibly help a great deal.

Of course you already know the major points of difference between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

One that I never seem to see mentioned though but to me, is a major thing, is really about the way we view our salvation and God. I mean no disrespect to my Catholic friends if any happen to be reading, but even though I better understand the idea of purgatory, and the need for means to purge our sins, etc. from the Catholic perspective, I just don't find it as good or as helpful a model as theosis. And I also personally find theosis to be very much in agreement with Scripture, and the whole idea of man's history and God's plan from the very beginning.

It's subtle, but it paints a different picture of God Himself, when you consider all the means by which He makes us to become more like Him, and desires us to be with Him. To me, Catholicism is just subtly slightly more about punishment and reward, and that does not ring true to my heart. Not that we don't HAVE reward, etc. .... but the picture it paints of God to focus on it in the way Catholics do .... as I said, it is subtly different.

I spent my life as a Protestant, and the Catholic way of viewing God is not so different from what I had developed among those churches. The Orthodox view was a complete paradigm shift for me, but answered those niggling questions that just never seemed right about the way I had always viewed God. It also opens my heart in a way I never experienced before, and gives me more of a true experience of and confidence in God's good and loving thoughts toward us that I never appreciated or understood before.

That has just been SO important to me.

I pray you will find the right place for you and your family, and for the right reasons. God be with you.