Necessary Suffering

[mkgal1]

I recently heard more about this (Carl Jung, I believe, is the one who coined the phrase) and it just came up in another thread how healing is "hard work" and painful. But.....I can't help but think of the alternative as being worse.

I think what's even more reason to go through the pain of therapy or generally being present with our emotions during trying times of loss is what happens when we come out on the other side. I do believe that Richard Rohr is right---what happens is that we are able to know God and others more from the "inside" instead of just from the "outside" (in a superficial way).

This may articulate my thoughts better:

Suffering is the necessary deep feeling of the human situation. If we don’t feel pain, suffering, human failure, and weakness, we stand antiseptically apart from it, and remain numb and small. We can’t understand such things by thinking about them. The superficiality of much of our world is that it tries to buy its way out of the ordinary limits and pain of being human. Carl Jung called it “necessary suffering,” and I think he was right.

Jesus did not numb himself or withhold himself from human pain, as we see even in his refusal of the numbing wine on the cross (Matthew 27:34). Some forms of suffering are necessary so that we knowthe human dilemma, so that we can even name our shadow self and confront it.

Brothers and sisters, the irony is not that God should feel so fiercely; it’s that his creatures feel so feebly. If there is nothing in your life to cry about, if there is nothing in your life to yell about, you must be out of touch. We must all feel and know the immense pain of this global humanity. Then we are no longer isolated, but a true member of the universal Body of Christ. Then we know God not from the outside but from the inside!

~Adapted from Richard Rohr, Radical Grace: Daily Meditations

 

[mkgal1]

.....and a bit more:

Drawing on Carl Jung as much as the Gospels, the book argues that the structure and ambitions of the first half of life should serve as a "container" meant to hold the more meaningful "contents" of the second half, during which individuals let go of many selfish desires. The two halves are complementary, and the distinction between them is not marked by age but by experience and an interior shift.

....what causes that interior shift is suffering (some experience that causes us to begin to edit what's not useful and what we've discovered is not true)

We then stop living by the standards of other people and begin living based on our own principles/standards/beliefs. Then we are in the "second half" of our life (not a chronological age---but an experience based division).

In the second half of life, people have less power to infatuate you. But they also have much less power to control you or hurt you.”~― Richard Rohr, Falling Upward: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life

We do not think ourselves into new ways of living, we live ourselves into new ways of thinking… The most courageous thing we will ever do is to bear humbly the mystery of our own reality.”
― Richard Rohr

 

[mkgal1]

What Is Suffering?
Meditation 30 of 51
Pain teaches a most counterintuitive thing—that we must go down before we even know what up is. In terms of the ego, most religions teach in some way that all of us must die before we die, and then we will not be afraid of dying. Suffering of some sort seems to be the only thing strong enough to destabilize our arrogance and our ignorance. I would define suffering very simply as whenever you are not in control.

If religion cannot find a meaning for human suffering, humanity is in major trouble. All healthy religion shows you what to do with your pain. Great religion shows you what to do with the absurd, the tragic, the nonsensical, the unjust. If we do not transform this pain, we will most assuredly transmit it to others, and it will slowly destroy us in one way or another.

Surprisingly, suffering itself often brings deep meaning to the surface to those who are suffering and also to those who love them.
~http://myemail.constantcontact.com/...ring-.html?soid=1103098668616&aid=J5f-pdASkgU

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

While many wish they could go back and change their pain from the past, I do not. Yes, there are some mistakes I made that at first, I wanted to change. But if not for those decisions I would have not learned anything. Pain and suffering made me first mad at God, but eventually I realized its purpose and it brought me closer to God.

If we live perfect lives where we have no pain or trials then how do we learn? You can't learn if everything is going perfect. Especially as christians. If not for my pain I wouldn't understand others who have pain. I wouldn't be as empathetic. I wouldn't be as caring. I'd just be a cold shell of a person who would be naive and hurt people because I wouldn't understand them.

 

[mkgal1]

But if not for those decisions I would have not learned anything. Pain and suffering made me first mad at God, but eventually I realized its purpose and it brought me closer to God.

If we live perfect lives where we have no pain or trials then how do we learn? You can't learn if everything is going perfect. Especially as christians. If not for my pain I wouldn't understand others who have pain. I wouldn't be as empathetic. I wouldn't be as caring. I'd just be a cold shell of a person who would be naive and hurt people because I wouldn't understand them.

Exactly! Thanks for posting. That's just what I was getting it---we don't mature....we don't have a realistic idea of "life"---and we can't empathize with others (and without experiencing any suffering--- then we're not truly joining in as a part of the Body of Christ).

 

[mkgal1]

I just read this article and thought of this thread.

This young gal demonstrates how it's not age that gets a person from the "first half of life" to the "second half of life". I think her experiencing life outside of her own culture (when she went on a missionary trip) was her "necessary suffering" that allowed her to "get it":

Taylor Smith wrote a special letter to herself just days after returning from a missionary trip with very specific instructions - "Do not open until 2023." However, the letter would be opened less than a year after the 12-year-old wrote it, but it wouldn't be her eyes reading the words

Taylor died from complications linked to pneumonia. Her grieving parents, Tim and Mary Ellen found the letter when they were going through her belongings. Tim and Mary Ellen where shocked - not by the fact their daughter had written a letter to her future self, but by what she had written.~http://abc7news.com/society/parents-find-deceased-daughters-letter-to-herself/1353429/

 

[RedPonyDriver]

When the pain of changing outweighs the pain of staying the same, then a person will change...

 

[Dave-W]

From the thread that this was taken from - choosing the pain of change (like my PT for the shoulder) for yourself is one thing. Some one else requesting or demanding that change is completely another.

If the OP in that thread wants to face the pain and get over her aversions, fine.
Her husband OTOH has NO EXCUSE for demanding or even requesting it from her. IMO he should not even allow her to understand it is an issue for him.

 

[mkgal1]

You're right---therapy isn't effective if it's imposed on another person. The person has to want to grow and learn better way (and undue false truths picked up along the way).

 

[amariselle]

Wow, some amazing thoughts here. I agree than pain in necessary for growth.

"And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:3-5)

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God." (2 Corinthians 1:3-4)

 

[mkgal1]

Great Scriptural references, Amariselle. Thanks.

I just began reading a book this morning---it's a memoir written by Kay Bruner. The title is "As Soon as I Fell". I hadn't even realized when I started the book that she's writing about the same experience (not really getting to the "abundant life" until she "fell" or experienced "necessary suffering").

Kay's life in her early years were all about obtaining honor based on what she did (her and her husband were Bible translators in Papua New Guinea). It was all external---and all reliant on the approval of others (instead of an internal guiding from the Holy Spirit). That approval could be revoked at any moment---any time she didn't live up to those standards she'd grown to believe were necessary.

This is from Amazon's description of the book:

This is a story about going to extremes for spiritual acceptability and failing dismally, only to find that love and grace transcend failure. For anyone who's ever asked, "When will I be good enough for love?" This book resoundingly answers: "Right now. You are loved, right this minute, in this mess." While few of us will live on a tiny island in the South Pacific, many of us will find hope and healing in this story of a painful fall into the arms of love.

I think that's the message that's difficult for so many of us to get (until we experience it.....truly live it)....that "love and grace transcend failure"...that there's a far superior system other than the honor/shame system (love and grace).

 

[amariselle]

Great Scriptural references, Amariselle. Thanks.

I just began reading a book this morning---it's a memoir written by Kay Bruner. The title is "As Soon as I Fell". I hadn't even realized when I started the book that she's writing about the same experience (not really getting to the "abundant life" until she "fell" or experienced "necessary suffering").

Kay's life in her early years were all about obtaining honor based on what she did (her and her husband were Bible translators in Papua New Guinea). It was all external---and all reliant on the approval of others (instead of an internal guiding from the Holy Spirit). That approval could be revoked at any moment---any time she didn't live up to those standards she'd grown to believe were necessary.

This is from Amazon's description of the book:



I think that's the message that's difficult for so many of us to get (until we experience it.....truly live it)....that "love and grace transcend failure"...that there's a far superior system other than the honor/shame system (love and grace).

Thanks for sharing this Mkgal. I think you make an excellent point, even when we are doing our best to serve God and live our lives for Him, too often we are focusing on ourselves. The Pastor at my church spoke about "dying to yourself" in last week's sermon. It is an attitude that we find very difficult and it takes a lot of work. It doesn't happen overnight either, but I think it is actually a lifelong journey.

We want to be liked, we want to be approved of and validated. I suppose that is inherent in us as humans, from the time we are little children. Jesus tells us that the world is going to hate us because of Him. When it comes to our faith and our decisions to follow our Lord and Saviour, we will not be approved of by the world. (Although, as Christian brothers and sisters we should definitely be there to support and encourage each other.)

And when we fail, we can still have hope, because our salvation is not dependent on our works or on us earning it. Sometimes the seeking after approval from God can turn into trying to make sure we have earned our salvation, but the Bible is clear that it is not something we earn in any way on our own merits or accomplishments.

So, yes...I agree (though I am still learning and growing) that we should welcome suffering as well as the easier times.

I was also thinking just now that in our world today the aversion to suffering is in many ways at the root of all this brokenness and convoluted thinking and entitlement we see. Everyone just wants to live their life how they want, and they don't want to listen to anyone else. We don't dare object anymore, because if we do we are labeled close-minded, judgmental bigots. No one desires correction (done in love) anymore. And now we have the new religion of "Political Correctness."

 

[mkgal1]

Oh.....you are so on the same track as my thoughts right now! Even when we "die to ourselves", we often want others to know just how "sacrificial" we are being (in order to get that pay off and approval). You've seen that quote, right, that talks about "integrity" about doing the "right" thing when no one else is looking? I think that's when we're being to be spiritually mature. When we can accept the *disapproval* of others (and sense our communion with God), then we're acting more in an internal way.

I agree....that really does take a lifetime (and is a journey).

 

[amariselle]

Oh.....you are so on the same track as my thoughts right now! Even when we "die to ourselves", we often want others to know just how "sacrificial" we are being (in order to get that pay off and approval). You've seen that quote, right, that talks about "integrity" about doing the "right" thing when no one else is looking? I think that's when we're being to be spiritually mature. When we can accept the *disapproval* of others (and sense our communion with God), then we're acting more in an internal way.

I agree....that really does take a lifetime (and is a journey).

Exactly! It really is a constant struggle with self-centeredness and and pride. I have heard that quote yes. I think it can be a hard balance, because although we are not supposed to seek praise and recognition for ourselves, we are also not to be ashamed of Jesus. We need to be in close relationship with Him and pray that He will work through us in whatever way necessary, to the glory of His name.

 

[mkgal1]

Right. I also think the place of "balance" is about accepting our imperfections and recognize when we "mess up", but not take that as defeat (still knowing that God loves us). I think when we get to that point, we can accept the imperfections in others a lot better.

 

[amariselle]

Yes. I know that many have felt that Christians think they are better than non-Christians. (And there have undoubtedly been Christians who behave this way).

I think that Christians should be all the more aware of how sinful and broken we are, and of how much we need Jesus. Then we will be compassionate because we know how much He has done for us when we didn't deserve it.