Native American Exile: Illegal Immigration Laws toward Mexico harm American Indians

[Gxg (G²)]

I was originally thinking of the United States, in general, particularly Indian Territory, which is now Oklahoma, when I made that statement. I was not referring to Tejas. I was also referring to what I see as hypocrisy and irony of anti-immigration complaints by non-Native people living in the United States.

Even for those who do support immigration laws rather than simply letting everyone cross over, it is sad to see that they are still being mistreated as if they are non-citizens. Again, the experiences of the Tohono O'odham (as the territory of their reservation is literally cut in half by the imaginary we call the American/Mexican border) - it is the busiest crossing point along the U.S/Mexico border.....and they are being treated as illegal immigrants on their own land.

• Living in No-Man's Land | Cultural Survival

• Fence In The Sky: Border Wall Cuts Through Native Land - The Native Press

It's interesting seeing as another noted best that "due to US border policies at funnel migrants through the harsh Arizona desert, thousands of people have crossed and died on Tohono O’odham lands" - more in Jose Antonio Lucero: “Frictions of Conversion and Contention: Religion and Activism in the Tohono O’odham Borderlands”[/URL] and others who are worth looking up on the issue would be people like Mike Wilson (more in the documentary Man in the Maze as well as Crossing Arizona and The 800 Mile Wall on Border Control), who has been causing waves with his helping out of migrants despite what other tribal leaders have said in disagreement.

• Ground Zero: The Tohono O'odham Nation

• Mike Wilson: Border Patrol is occupying army

Michael Wilson on Border Patrol & Tohono O'odham Legislature - YouTube

Border Patrol Nation ? - YouTube

TORN APART: Mike Wilson - YouTube

Crossing Arizona 3 - YouTube

Tohono O'odham and U S Border Patrol - YouTube



And for an actual map illustrating the reality that they are living in, one can go to Tohono O'odham Nation – Living through the border | U.S. - Mexico Borderlands and see the following as well as other illustrations helping to show the ways that Border Control has harmed Native Americans...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I see as hypocrisy and irony of anti-immigration complaints by non-Native people living in the United States.

Even for people speaking in respect of Native Americans living in the U.S and saying their lands should be protected, we unfortunately do not acknowledge the ways that anti-immigration laws do not respect them as much as others claim.

Before going further, it cannot be avoided that Native Americans have been very wide-spread in their travels throughout North America and many have set up some boundaries on them which do not keep in mind their own tribal borders. One example we can keep in mind are the Hopi for starters - with their borders crossing:

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And of course, several other tribes who were spread out long before Europeans came...and others who remained but were separated when keeping in mind Mexico's territorial evolution (at the stage it was with the First Mexican Empire following the war of Mexican independence was one of the longest in America that ended in 1821, which eventually led to the independence

Linguistic Map of Mexico Indian Languages/Tribes

On land territories with American Indians endangered due to boundary changes, As noted earlier, Lipan Apache lands are in danger of confiscation and it has made a world of difference with the Border Patrols being directly responsible for discrimination toward them (as well as potential removal of their lands for more space - thus more of the same that American Indians have gone through with changes always happening) and other NDS groups - with the goal of the Border Patrol often focusing on those from Mexico even though they are Native American......and attached is the actual imagery of their land situation (which can also be found here in IN A BORDER WORLD ? Colonization under the guise of “immigrant rights” ). Others from the Apache nation have actively protested on the issue, as seen below...

• The Situation at the Texas-Mexico Border and the Racially Discriminatory Impact of the Border Wall on the Lipan Apache (Cúelcahén Ndé) Peoples in Texas

 

[Red Fox]

Gxg (G²), with all due respect, the United States government has never once respected any sovereign NDN land, ever. In fact, America is founded on stolen NDN land. I could say much more, but I will leave it at that. Its government takes land as it wishes, the only thing that has changed is the term used to describe it. It was once known as Manifest Destiny, but today it is called eminent domain.

"They made us many promises, more than I can remember, but they kept one; they promised to take our land, and they did." - Chief Red Cloud, Oglala Lakota

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Gxg (G²), with all due respect, the United States government has never once respected any sovereign NDN land, ever. In fact, America is founded on stolen NDN land. I could say much more, but I will leave it at that. Its government takes land as it wishes, the only thing that has changed is the term used to describe it. It was once known as Manifest Destiny, but today it is called eminent domain.

"They made us many promises, more than I can remember, but they kept one; they promised to take our land, and they did." - Chief Red Cloud, Oglala Lakota

If you're speaking in regards to the bottom line fact that others were already here first/living and thus the land dynamic is inconsistent when it was really stolen, of course that is not in question. I don't know where it was ever said otherwise since the OP since that is a rather basic concept I grew up knowing in-depth (and having Black Foot Indian on my grandmother's side, it was not a small issue to keep it in mind). Treaties have consistently been broken and altered and thus land ownership is often subject to the whims of whatever group is in power ....and as it is, even promises to provide food/security have often been broken - as discussed before:

Agreed. An apology is simply lip service without action, where action is possible. For First nations people, there are provisions made. They are exempt of taxation, and exempt from hunting and fishing regulations. Far more is needed though, to adress the injustice.

I agree.


I'm glad for the ways that others have taken that as something to be concerned about, especially as it concerns Health Care. Native Americans had many amongst them advocating for health care on the basis of what was promised to them DECADES ago in treaties given by the government---and although the president has worked extensively with them /sought to keep his promise in aiding them (with many noting it is above and beyond) and has done well, many feel more needs to continue being done....and others outside of Native American culture could often care less.

Not many think on the National Congress for Indian Affairs and the people they represent...nor the ways the president has kept them in mind throughout his term when it comes to healthcare/affordable treatment and resources (more here and here). For if the entire economy was doing well and that group alongside others was suffering, it wouldn't really bother others or cross their mind if things were all good in the middle class/surburbs...

Native American Indian Healthcare Health Care Lakota Sioux Pine Ridge Cherokee President Obama
Don't Get Sick After June: American Indian Healthcare
Indian Health Service Director Yvette Roubideaux on Challenges in Indian Health Leadership​

The one thing is to find a way to keep our first nations people from living in abject poverty.

I would love for this to be brought up in discussion during the debates....as people often speak of being concerned for the people--and yet many groups are consistently left out of view even though they are the people. Many Native American groups noted plainly that the government others championed couldn't care less about their interests whenever they asked for assistance or change. It's one of the reasons why they're very distrustful of government, seeing the many times government programs were set up to harm them and then they were told that the government was simply trying to help---and yet the help they wanted to recieve was non-existent.

Of course, many are for the mindset that Native Americans live for free since they hear of the ways governments give them resources...but that's a myth. Nonetheless, historically, many times programs were set up by the government that caused certain groups damage.

Aaron Huey: America's native prisoners of war​

Red Power - Native American Movement​

In social work, we call them the "Invisible Minority"---and for good reason, in light of how often they're not even brought up in discussion. Even after many took the island of Alchatraz hostage during the Red Power movement.


In 1862, the American government refused to honor treaty obligations to the Dakota Sioux Indians during a time of widespread starvation. When tribal leaders, desperate for relief, asked for food on credit because the U.S. government had failed to provide moneys owed, an associate of the local Indian agent replied, “If they are hungry, let them eat grass or their own dung.” His comment, and the crass disregard it represented, helped to spark the infamous and bloody confrontation between the tribe and the federal government now known as the Dakota War. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, these Americans earn a median annual income of $33,627. One in every four (25.3 percent) lives in poverty and nearly a third (29.9 percent) are without health insurance coverage. Essentially, counties on Native American reservations are among the poorest in the country and, according to the Economic Research Service at the U.S. Department of Agriculture, nearly 60 percent of all Native Americans who live outside of metropolitan areas inhabit persistently poor counties.

America's indigenous populations have struggled for recognition. Most of the world's nations have been reluctant to take positive steps to support the rights of indigenous peoples. The United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Peoples set a goal early this century for adoption of the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. In 2007, 143 countries finally adopted the declaration. The United States – the wealthiest country in the world – was not one of them. The Government Accountability Office (GAO) has leveled a number of criticisms at the agencies responsible for federal Native American policy, including "long-standing financial and programmatic deficiencies" in the Interior Department's American Indian programs. A 2006 GAO report also found that the Office of the Special Trustee for American Indians has failed to implement several key initiatives specified by the American Indian Trust Fund Management Reform Act of 1994, including establishing an actual timetable for completing its mission. Congress failed to reauthorize the Indian Health Care Improvement Act since 1992.

Initially passed in 1976, the Indian Health Care Improvement Act was designed to bring the waning health of Native American communities up to the standard enjoyed by all Americans...and Health systems in many Native American communities are in serious need of updating and improvement. Nixon's presidency was one of the few that seemed to take serious Native issues/represent them properly..but often, representation/justice has been denied. There are other groups who've experienced similar to them throughout history....and sadly, they're often left out of the picture.

A few tribes did well with their casinos. The Pequots in Conn. were making crazy money from Foxwoods. Each member of the tribe was getting something like $100K annually in dividends. (That had to stop since they've been hurt by the recession and competition from other Indian gaming operation.) Still, there's a certain poetic justice here. As someone said--the White man got the Red man drunk to steal his lands. Now the Red man gets the White man drunk to steal his money.

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That said, the roots behind Manifest Destiny has never changed when considering how many legal actions are done with religious background/purposes of seeing others as violating God's calling on the nation - American Imperialism combined with religious imagery which is the core of the nation in many respects. The methods have changed alongside the name, of course, as you mentioned - and as said in the OP, people would be very bothered if someone said "We're still imprisoning/mistreating American Indians" when it comes to prison labor/exploitation of immigrants detained (as mentioned more in-depth here) but not many consider that's exactly what has happened when we code-switched by forgeting the ways Mexicans are Native Americans and the genetic evidence on the issue (as it concerns how large scale mitochondrial sequencing in Mexican Americans suggests a reappraisal of Native American origins ) as well as the differing tribal groups in Mexico/the Southwest (which both had commonality) are hard to ignore. However, as it concerns sovereign land at THIS point in time and the tribal lands which other NDN groups have, those are ones which have gotten far more respect than others even though the original boundaries of the land were far more extensive. If there was no respect for sovereign land on any level, the U.S would go in and remove all forms of reservations entirely - but that is not the case.

A better word for it would probably be "tolerance" or "allowance" since the lands tribal groups have currently seem to be stable as long as the U.S. government finds it necessary to do so - and thus, I have no assumptions that the U.S. will automatically respect sovereign land for Native Americans out of goodwill or benevolent intent.

For those impacted by the U.S-Mexican border, this is a big deal with regards to the land they were given being debated on how to use it - it will not be surprising if the land is somehow taken again (unfortunately).

 

[Gxg (G²)]

"They made us many promises, more than I can remember, but they kept one; they promised to take our land, and they did." - Chief Red Cloud, Oglala Lakota

Great quote...

 

[Red Fox]

In the midst of our discussion here, I do not want to forget my relations in Canada, to the First Nations, I also honor them. A'ho, Mitakuye Oyasin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-40cjICFmo

 

[Sistrin]

Native Americans are never a topic that are not important - or something that one has to search for a reason to have concern for.

His point was the shotgun approach you take in trying to address a topic.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

His point was the shotgun approach you take in trying to address a topic.

And as said before, the point was irrelevant seeing that others already addrressed the issue directly as the point was brought up directly - in regards to noting the bottom line issues as they were:

• Native Americans are harmed by certain Border Patrol Laws (Tohono O'odham and Apache as certain groups immediately referenced in example, etc.)
• Native Americans are Mexican as well and have experienced life in both the U.S as well as Mexican context historically (as noted plainly by what NPR said in their interview which was discussed alongside several University sites like Arizona State University already said on the issue in their interview as well as several other primary resources - in addition to tribal groups who've been in existence - each brought up directly in the documentaries or videos/U.S. history organizations where they spoke directly from the OP) and have had their tribal lands not respected in the U.S.
• Native American groups have protested the issue with regards to U.S. Border Patrol laws/practices and have had solidarity with Mexican immigrants.

Nothing shot-gun was done seeing that nothing was done in hasty use or nonselective manner (nor was anything noted that does not deal squarely with the issue) - and trying to argue such without even dealing with the issue (or source in disputing it) doesn't address anything other than showing one deflects the point to focus on other aspects not dealing with bottom-line basics - no different than speaking on the Founding Fathers needing respect in an OP and the response given is to avoid the central topic (if there's a reference or several references) and instead saying "I don't think the way you used slang on your topic is right" (red herring).

It obscures the point when going past that simple reality acting as if nothing was said directly/plainly - and the same goes with regards to missing the point when several differing groups/organizations have spoken on the issue and those groups are comprehensively addressed with reference (i.e. link, video/their own words, history sites, etc.) while the only response is "shot-gun" (which is ad-hominem anyhow). Either one deals with the topic as it is - or they don't want to deal with and they can graciously move on. And if one either already has issue with Native Americans who are Mexican or holds an anti-Immigration stance to begin with, then one can easily say so rather than going past the subject as if it is not a basis for finding any way to avoid addressing the main groups brought up/the info on them.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In the midst of our discussion here, I do not want to forget my relations in Canada, to the First Nations, I also honor them. A'ho, Mitakuye Oyasin.

The First Nations in Canada have had such a vivid history and they definitely are worth honoring. Thank you for bringing them up, as they have experienced some of the same difficulties as Native Americans on the U.S.- Mexican border:

• Indians seek less hassle, more respect at U.S.-Canada border

As noted best in that excellent review:

Since the 1783 Treaty of Paris established the boundary between Canada and the United States, many indigenous North American tribes have become a people divided. In Montana, populations of Kootenai and Blackfeet straddle the international border, with communities dispersed on either side of the boundary.

There are, for example, seven bands of Kootenai spanning international and state borders - five in southeastern British Columbia, one in northwestern Montana and one in northern Idaho - but the members all share the same tribal council. The Blackfeet Nation is divided into four tribes, one in northern Montana and three just across the border, in southern Alberta.

But as laid out in Article III of the 1794 Jay Treaty, American Indians may travel freely across the international boundary for employment, study, religion, commerce or immigration.

"We cross all year long for all kinds of reasons," said Laurence Kenmille, records research manager at the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes enrollment department. "We go there for the tribal council when the seven bands get together. We have language-sharing events and cultural meetings. The travel is constant."

*****

Travel became more restrictive for everyone after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and the International Boundary, commonly considered the "world's longest undefended border," was no exception. Congress passed the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative, which restricted the list of documents acceptable for entering the United States. And although the list of acceptable documents included tribal identification cards, the revision has led to escalating conflicts over their legitimacy.​

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For other excellent places for review, one may consider the following:

• "Border Patrol Nation": How US Creates War Zones at Boundaries With Mexico, Canada

• Indian reservations on both U.S. borders become drug pipelines | World | McClatchy DC

• mexmigration: History and Politics of Mexican Immigration: Native Americans and the immigration reform debate

• Smuggled Aliens Now Cross Mohawk Land - NYTimes.com

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In the midst of our discussion here, I do not want to forget my relations in Canada, to the First Nations, I also honor them. A'ho, Mitakuye Oyasin.

The First Nations groups of Canada are very beautiful but they have truly gone through a lot....

And they have been so resistant to so many things coming against them...

 

[GarfieldJL]

I live in Tejas, and honestly, I would not be on the American side of the issue. I guess these people who squawk the loudest against immigration from Mexico are afraid the Mexicans will try to take the land America rightfully stole. And if that were ever to happen, we can only hope and pray that the Mexico government doesn't treat the Americans like the United States government treated the American NDNs. So, word to the wise, whatever you do, don't accept any blankets from the Mexican government and hide your children.

Thank you for demonstrating why I told you and others in this article to drop the guilt trip...

The reason that people are pushing for more security on the southern border has nothing to do with race, it has to do with all the people fleeing their native countries for various reasons. Mexico ships people from their southern border to their border with the US, deliberately.

Democrats want amnesty because they view this as millions of undocumented Democrats, big business wants amnesty so they don't have to pay American workers higher wages...

What I'd really like to see is all the corruption in Mexico to be cleaned up, the drug cartels utterly destroyed, so that we wouldn't have to secure our Southern Border like this.

This isn't about depriving a certain tribe their traditional territory, this is about a bunch of other people crossing the US/Mexican border through said territory. Bringing drugs, alcohol (which I believe you would be the first to admit how damaging alcohol is to the Native American communities), coyotes smuggling children for the sex-trade, etc. If we didn't have to deal with all of that, I wouldn't have a problem with said Tribe having free access to that land. However short of Mexico seizing the Southwestern US, or the US seizing that land, the best solution is to block access.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Drop the guilt trip... I'm serious...

A country that is unwilling to enforce the sovereignty of its borders is a country that is unlikely to survive for much longer. I know some liberals would love for the United States to cease to exist, and my response to them is go move somewhere else.

Same logic was advocated with Japanese internment camps when it came to policing others in the name of border control/keeping others out who were an issue during problematic times. Mistreating others is never what a country is allowed to do to "protect" itself - and there are more practical ways to do Border Control that do not involve locking all immigrants as if they are the same.

Thus, the claim of "guilt trip" needs to be dropped since it is not founded (AND can come off very much as an argument via emotion) when it comes to other Native Americans noting people need to stop reacting as if it's a matter of "guilt" to note inconsistency in practices. Native Americans (including those who are Mexican like the Apache or theTohono O'odham as examples) have already spoken on the issue and there's no "guilt" in them being who they are or noting the need to be consistent with previous standards rather than shifting. If Border Control means more of the same with dishonoring tribal lands/their sovereignty and the treaties made, then that is a problem.

• O'odham Solidarity Across Borders Collective: Movement Demands Autonomy: An O'odham Perspective on Border Controls and Immigration

What follows is illustration of the reservation for the Tohono O’odham in the United States and an approximation of traditional lands on both sides of the border - from “Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 10: Southwest”; O’odham Solidarity Across Borders Collective; Resource Center at the National Museum of the American Indian, New York.

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And as another wisely noted in 2 - Tribal College Journal of American Indian Higher Education - Tribal College Journal of American Indian Higher Education

One of the first laws that recognized the unique situation confronting Indigenous peoples of the borderlands was the Jay Treaty of 1794, which included a provision maintaining Aboriginal rights to freely pass and to carry on commerce across the U.S.-Canada border. A Canadian Indian, however, must have at least 50% blood quantum in order to pass freely between the two borders. After the War of 1812, the U.S. and Great Britain reiterated these rights in the Treaty of Ghent. Both treaties have been cited in immigration cases by Canadian and U.S. courts, confirming protection of Indian border-crossing and commerce rights. These rights, however, have come under attack and courts’ rulings on the matter are not consistent in upholding Indian rights under the treaties (Osburn, 1999/2000).

​

The U.S.-Canada border stretches 3.987 miles across North America. There are six federally recognized tribes in the U.S. that straddle the international border, but many more whose homelands are in the borderlands region. Map by Nakota Designs.

​

In the eastern half of North America, the Akwesasne Mohawks retain lands on both sides of the international border. ...On the southern border dividing the United States and Mexico, Native people are generally unable to employ the same rights as those who live along the Canadian border. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (which ended the Mexican–American War in 1848) and the Gadsden Purchase of 1853 separated tribal lands in the southern part of the United States. Due to the region’s remote location and sparse population at the time, the U.S. and Mexico did not acknowledge tribal border-crossing rights in these agreements or in subsequent federal laws except with the special case of the Kickapoo Tribe in southern Texas. Due to historical relocations and seasonal migration, Congress passed an act in 1983 allowing Kickapoo tribal members to freely pass across the U.S.-Mexico border (Osburn, 1999/2000). Until recently, tribes such as the Tohono O’odham in southern Arizona and northern Sonora continued normal travel in their homeland as they had done for centuries, prior to the formation of the foreign-imposed border (Tohono O’odham Nation, 2014).....Increased border control efforts such as the construction of the fence between Mexico and the United States have greatly impacted cross-border tribal relationships. The Indian communities who are affected include the Lipan Apache, the Kickapoo Tribe, Ysleta del Sur Pueblo near El Paso, the Tohono O’odham in southern Arizona, the Kumeyaay in southern California, and the Cocopah of the Colorado River Delta (University of Texas at Austin School of Law, n.d.; Villanueva, 2008).

​

Dismissing that is really no different than when the same happened before and tribal lands were not protected in the name of "We need to be safe" rather than realizing that the border itself/how it was enforced was causing problems to begin with.

And this has already been addressed earlier, as noted here:

You would think that folks from other countries would be free to live on reservations in america at the discretion of the tribe that rules it, but I am not sure of how autonomous legally the reservations are from the US law of the land.

Of course I guess it would be illegal for them to having to cross american land to get to it.

In the same way that the Shawnees in the North had friendly relations with the other tribes in the South and had interaction with them, others in Southern areas like Mexico have connection with other tribes in the U.S. - but whereas before there was not a line set up or territory taken which others have still noted to be illegal in the way it occurred with the U.S gaining the Southwest, now a boundary is set up to divide - and for many, as the old saying goes, "We didn't cross over the border, the border crossed over us" and "We didn't cross over the border, you moved it!!"

People forget how in pre-1519, the U.S.-Mexico border region was inhabited by many Native American groups who have lived in the area for centuries.

There's a reason why there is such solidarity between Native Americans and those from Mexico as well as other territories far South when it comes to Native American culture and solidarity (as many people tend to assume that the immigrants crossing the US--Mexico border are all Mexican when the reality is that a large percentage of them come from Central America)...and many of the people immigrating are doing so because of the actions of the U.S. intervening in Central America and causing Diaspora.

But as it concerns others protesting here, there are indeed a variety of responses. Some are outright angry at what is going on

• Native American Shuts Down Immigration Protest

• Native American Women VS. anti-illegal immigration protesters
  
  
  Others are far more calm in making the point for solidarity...
  

And for others, there is a focus on the ways that Immigration laws have resulted in others being wrongfully deported even after following all the rules for being a citizen and yet still falsely accused:

• Harrowing Tales of the Wrongly Deported: How Border Patrol Officers Flout the Law and Destroy Lives

• A Shooting on a Tribal Land Uncovers Feds Running Wild - The Daily Beast

• Native Americans Take a Stand on the Border Wall << Smart Borders

Of course, as it concerns immigration, there are others who have counter-perspectives when it comes to seeing what has happened historically...and others coming in did not respect the Indigenous groups present there already.

Additionally, many have pointed out the ways that Native Americans have been crucial in ensuring Border control success. As said best elsewhere (for brief excerpt):

Gary Edwards, CEO of the National Native American Law Enforcement Association, states that there are 25 tribal reservations located on and/or across the U.S. borders with Canada and Mexico and 41 tribal reservations are within 100 miles of those international U.S. borders. Since Native Americans are around a large part of our borders, they are, and should continue to be, a part of our border security initiatives.

Cooperation between the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and Native Americans has already played a significant role in our boarder security, especially in remote areas where drug smugglers and citizens try to enter the U.S. illegally. Today, more than 22,000 Native Americans serve in the Armed Forces and have the highest per capita serving in the military of any ethnic group protecting the homeland.

Additionally, the "Shadow Wolves" are Native American trackers who are part of the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Since 1972, the Shadow Wolves have been tracking aliens and drug smugglers attempting to cross the border by looking for footprints, tire tracks, items snagged on branches, bent or broken twigs or even a single fiber of cloth. Their patrol area covers 2.8 million acres and officers estimate that recently they have seized an average of 60,000 pounds of illegal drugs a year.

U.S. Customs and Border Protection and the DHS need to remember the dedication, skill set and strategic geographical intelligence that Native Americans bring to the mix. In order to create a lasting relationship that utilizes their knowledge and aptitude, tribes must have complete access to intelligence and information pertinent to border security.​

And of course, things are difficult enough when many Native Americans have been kicked out of their tribes and reservations...

And for other Native Americans living on the Border, many are not aware on how difficult life is for them...as is the case with the Tohono O'odham Nation that feels caught in a war between border crosses and the U.S. Border Patrol...with Border Rules even impacting documents/passports Native Americans have and leaving them in Limbo..

• New travel rules leave Native Americans in limbo | Reuters

.

• U.S.-Mexico border wreaks havoc on lives of an indigenous desert tribe | Al Jazeera America

• Tracking a Marked Population in the US Borderlands | The Nation

Living on US-Mexico Border, Native Americans Face Daily Struggles - YouTube

Native Americans against SB1070: divided by US - Mexico border - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYsSSTRiD0c

Gxg (G²), I love the political memes you posted in your previous post. I have a lot of memes and political cartoons on this issue myself.

Cool to know and glad they connected. There are many others on the issue.

On a side note, I do hope others can begin to have understanding when it comes to seeing how much of a difference it makes in seeing people if choosing to actively not see Native Americans as connected with Border Control issues. What has happened to the Tohono O'odham Nation (both in having many wrongfully accused/deported and others who were harmed by Border control in the Southwest even as they were in U.S. territory on their reservation) - it is without excuse. But the same goes for ignoring the Indigenous roots of Mexicans and seeing why there is solidarity.

• http://www.newsweek.com/dna-proves-not-all-mexicans-are-created-equal-254642

.......

For a brief presentation on the issue - some of it coming from MexicansAreNatives's channel :

Feb.2,2013 Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo Discussion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhsyKOqmwWM

Who's The Real NDN? Proud to be Native Mexican in the 21st Century United States - YouTube

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You can't remove the anchor babies' citizenship after the fact. That would be an ex post facto law and it's unconstitutional. It could also be considered a Bill of Attainder which is also unconstitutional. You could change it for future generations by repealing that part of the 14th Amendment, but it would be very difficult to do, requiring a new amendment to be passed.

Very true - and for many, they have no idea on the full impact that happens when parents (in the process of citizenship) are often deported even as they are in the process of being legitimate and the anchor kids are left by themselves without proper care...and of course, for the kids born in the U.S. who cross over into Mexico and then try to come in again....

 

[Sistrin]

And as said before...

You don't respond well to any form of criticism, I know.

Thank you for demonstrating why I told you and others in this article to drop the guilt trip...

Agreed. As someone on the registry I have never seen the need to try and hold a generation of people accountable for the actions of another generation long dead. But that is the root core of the issue under discussion.

The reason that people are pushing for more security on the southern border has nothing to do with race, it has to do with all the people fleeing their native countries for various reasons. Mexico ships people from their southern border to their border with the US, deliberately.

Yes, they do. Mixed within those poor huddled masses of illegal Democrat voters are members of the drug cartels and God knows how many terrorist organizations. But the majority of the open borders crowd would never admit anyone other than those looking for work Americans won't do are using our open borders for their own purposes even if a mass of Al-Qaeda types marched across waving flags and firing their AK's into the air. No, it is always about race, used as a justification for a generation of people born south of the US border having a sovereign right to the state of Texas. Or Arizona, which ever.

Democrats want amnesty because they view this as millions of undocumented Democrats, big business wants amnesty so they don't have to pay American workers higher wages...

The former is undeniably true. As for the latter, my only caveat is once amnesty is granted then all of the immigrants will qualify for the benefits of minimum wage laws and any other federal program their democrat overseers want to bind them with. One potential outcome of the influx of low and unskilled laborers pouring across the border is it will blossom into a form of minimum wage slavery.

What I'd really like to see is all the corruption in Mexico to be cleaned up, the drug cartels utterly destroyed, so that we wouldn't have to secure our Southern Border like this.

Agreed. But if America won't confront ISIS, the drug cartels have nothing to fear.

This isn't about depriving a certain tribe their traditional territory, this is about a bunch of other people crossing the US/Mexican border through said territory. Bringing drugs, alcohol (which I believe you would be the first to admit how damaging alcohol is to the Native American communities), coyotes smuggling children for the sex-trade, etc.

QFT. But there is nothing to be gained politically by arguing the issue from that perspective. So evil white man...

However short of Mexico seizing the Southwestern US, or the US seizing that land, the best solution is to block access.

You make too much sense.

Same logic was advocated with Japanese internment camps when it came to policing others in the name of border control/keeping others out who were an issue during problematic times.

The difference in the case of the Japanese internment camps was the Japanese-Americans were already here. I am not defending what occurred, simply pointing out the US Government at the time was concerned about who might be hiding within the overall population so they decided to warehouse them all. But this incident wasn't an issue of border control or keeping others out.

Mistreating others is never what a country is allowed to do to "protect" itself...

Outside of the Bronie Patch of course it is. Unless you are one of those people who actually believe wars can be fought in which no one gets hurt.

...and there are more practical ways to do Border Control that do not involve locking all immigrants as if they are the same.

It isn't a question of locking all immigrants away, it is a question of blocking illegal entry and limiting immigration to the previously established legal immigration process. You do remember the United States has a legal immigration process, right?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You don't respond well to any form of criticism, I know.


/QUOTE]

Incorrect...and another red herring away from dealing with the OP.

One can do better. As it is, assuming no one listens to you or others you agree with isn't the same as showing a criticism valid after others already addressed the subject respectfully/were on point. There's a difference between being critical with basis as opposed to being so in distraction when it's ad-hominem - which has happened before (from #84 or #77 or #168 or #141 and many others) - We know, others have called you on the same things before with distracting from OP for pointless arguing (with the example here being the ad-hominem via Appeal to ridicule argumentation as if not receiving any attempt of criticism from yourself is equivalent to the dramatic claim of not listening to others at all) - and as I said, nothing too complicated on noting the bottom line issues you've YET to deal with. Continue further and it's further distraction from the OP - thus, derailing.

And as said before, the subject you're avoiding is this:

• Native Americans are harmed by certain Border Patrol Laws (Tohono O'odham and Apache as certain groups immediately referenced in example, etc.)
• Native Americans are Mexican as well and have experienced life in both the U.S as well as Mexican context historically (as noted plainly by what NPR said in their interview from The Map Of Native American Tribes You've Never Seen Before : Code Switch : NPR which was discussed alongside several University sites like Arizona State University already said on the issue in their interview as well as several other primary resources - in addition to tribal groups who've been in existence - each brought up directly in the documentaries or videos/U.S. history organizations where they spoke directly from the OP) and have had their tribal lands not respected in the U.S.
• Native American groups have protested the issue with regards to U.S. Border Patrol laws/practices and have had solidarity with Mexican immigrants especially when considering colonialism impacting Native Americans still with the mistreatment of Mexicans who are Native Americans - or Native Americans treated as illegal immigrants on their OWN land in the U.S. and ignoring historical precedents where others crossed over borders that were not set up in order to have connection with other tribes..

This is the Last time I will respectfully note the issue for what it is with focusing on the subject rather than derailing in the thread - as it really does not honor or respect Native Americans who have spoken on the issue and are treated as if they said nothing. They have spoken on the issue, as noted before:

I was originally thinking of the United States, in general, particularly Indian Territory, which is now Oklahoma, when I made that statement. I was not referring to Tejas. I was also referring to what I see as hypocrisy and irony of anti-immigration complaints by non-Native people living in the United States.

Even for those who do support immigration laws rather than simply letting everyone cross over, it is sad to see that they are still being mistreated as if they are non-citizens. Again, the experiences of the Tohono O'odham (as the territory of their reservation is literally cut in half by the imaginary we call the American/Mexican border) - it is the busiest crossing point along the U.S/Mexico border.....and they are being treated as illegal immigrants on their own land.

• Living in No-Man's Land | Cultural Survival

• Fence In The Sky: Border Wall Cuts Through Native Land - The Native Press

It's interesting seeing as another noted best that "due to US border policies at funnel migrants through the harsh Arizona desert, thousands of people have crossed and died on Tohono O’odham lands" - more in Jose Antonio Lucero: “Frictions of Conversion and Contention: Religion and Activism in the Tohono O’odham Borderlands”[/URL] and others who are worth looking up on the issue would be people like Mike Wilson (more in the documentary Man in the Maze as well as Crossing Arizona and The 800 Mile Wall on Border Control), who has been causing waves with his helping out of migrants despite what other tribal leaders have said in disagreement.

• Ground Zero: The Tohono O'odham Nation

• Mike Wilson: Border Patrol is occupying army

Michael Wilson on Border Patrol & Tohono O'odham Legislature - YouTube

Border Patrol Nation ? - YouTube

TORN APART: Mike Wilson - YouTube

Crossing Arizona 3 - YouTube

Tohono O'odham and U S Border Patrol - YouTube



And for an actual map illustrating the reality that they are living in, one can go to Tohono O'odham Nation – Living through the border | U.S. - Mexico Borderlands and see the following as well as other illustrations helping to show the ways that Border Control has harmed Native Americans...

Even for people speaking in respect of Native Americans living in the U.S and saying their lands should be protected, we unfortunately do not acknowledge the ways that anti-immigration laws do not respect them as much as others claim. As noted earlier, Lipan Apache lands are in danger of confiscation and it has made a world of difference with the Border Patrols being directly responsible for discrimination toward them (as well as potential removal of their lands for more space - thus more of the same that American Indians have gone through with changes always happening) and other NDS groups - with the goal of the Border Patrol often focusing on those from Mexico even though they are Native American......and attached is the actual imagery of their land situation (which can also be found here in IN A BORDER WORLD ? Colonization under the guise of “immigrant rights” ). Others from the Apache nation have actively protested on the issue, as seen below...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4ElGBv9REE

• The Situation at the Texas-Mexico Border and the Racially Discriminatory Impact of the Border Wall on the Lipan Apache (Cúelcahén Ndé) Peoples in Texas

 

[Gxg (G²)]

As someone on the registry I have never seen the need to try and hold a generation of people accountable for the actions of another generation long dead. But that is the root core of the issue under discussion.

Treaties made (BE IT the Jay Treaty or others that allowed for Native Americans to cross borders) are always about accountability. It's the concept of following laws - just as with the U.S. Constitution (unless, of course, that is also a matter of not needing to be held accountable since it's ALSO from the past, if following the train of logic you've offered thus far).

The root core of the issue is about seeing where Native Americans have been harmed negatively by Border Control laws - as well as dealing consistently with the ways the U.S said Native Americans are to be treated and yet seeing where that treatment was not present. Trying an argument of "So you think we should just give back ALL THE LAND taken during the U.S. colonial expansion?!" is irrelevant since what is in focus is seeing the tribal reservations still present TODAY and where those are being mistreated - in addition to Native Americans who were sent across the Border wrongfully due to how they looked ...or Native Americans visiting relatives across Mexico-U.S border and ignoring the history.

Mixed within those poor huddled masses of illegal Democrat voters are members of the drug cartels and God knows how many terrorist organizations. But the majority of the open borders crowd would never admit anyone other than those looking for work Americans won't do are using our open borders for their own purposes even if a mass of Al-Qaeda types marched across waving flags and firing their AK's into the air. No, it is always about race, used as a justification for a generation of people born south of the US border having a sovereign right to the state of Texas. Or Arizona, which eve

Whenever people try to assume that anyone for Immigration Reform or less Militarization of the U.S Borders is automatically for "Open Border", you know that you're dealing with a massive stereotype present.

One, it was never just Democrats and it's really a slothful argument trying to simplify things down into "Democrat vs. Republican" when the reality is that even Conservatives have spoken out on the subject for what it is.

• National Review

• A Conservative Pathway for Immigration Reform | The National Interest

• A Conservative and Compassionate Approach to Immigration Reform

That said, even for those on Border Control, there have already been Conservative Cases for Open Borders which allow for restriction without extensive militarization. True Conservatives understand that there's a difference between Conservatism versus Restrictionism - and we already have the example of Reagan who led the way in that with immigration reform (as was the case when Reagan signed the Simpson-Mazzoli Act, a bipartisan immigration reform bill that created a pathway to citizenship for 3 million undocumented immigrants), even though other conservatives leave him alone many times. There are reasons, in example, for others to address the issue such as CPAC's Open-Border, Mass-Immigration Panel

• Conservative and small-government case for open borders | Open Borders: The Case

And as said before, even Fredrick Douglass spoke on the issue when addressing some of the same arguments used today that were used in his day with anti-immigration law (in regards to the Chinese). Others realize the economic benefits to ALL sides that come with promoting immigration - especially as it concerns the job market...and remembering the reality of how many skilled workers come in (including those from Asian culture ) - especially as it concerns the growth of the Green Economy and the skills of workers coming in when it comes to agriculture, architecture and other things.

QFT. But there is nothing to be gained politically by arguing the issue from that perspective. So evil white man...

Has nothing to do with "the white man" as goes the stereotypical argument. The issue is honoring our treaties which we noted to be binding since it doesn't matter if others say "Well others are coming through those territories!!" - that same logic was used repeatedly in the past when it came to continually pushing other Native Americans into smaller reservations and gaining more land for uses to protect against another - often made up. Border Security with Militarization has made things far more difficult and negative on tribes and if one is concerned for them, they need to be respectful of that.

The difference in the case of the Japanese internment camps was the Japanese-Americans were already here. I am not defending what occurred, simply pointing out the US Government at the time was concerned about who might be hiding within the overall population so they decided to warehouse them all. But this incident wasn't an issue of border control or keeping others out.

Native Americans were ALREADY here, Bruh - one has to be looking past the issue to even try arguing otherwise, as the differing Native American tribes have already had their own people sent back over and are treated as illegal immigrants on their own land. And the U.S government was also concerned with keeping others OUT - including those visiting family outside of the U.S. who were Japanese, in the same way other Mexican Americans or Native Americans who are Mexican have been mistreated.

Anytime a group of people are either kicked out or detained because of how they look - and are given a very slow/disrespectful process of proving who they are, that's Border Control. The Internment Camps were guarded by Border Patrol agents.

• Idaho Museum of Natural History ? Imprisoned in Paradise: Japanese Internee Road Workers at the World War II Kooskia Internment Camp

• Internment of Japanese-Americans and Japanese-Canadians | World War II Database

• https://books.google.com/books?id=HruW69B1VPwC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=Japanese+Internment+Camp:+Border+Patrol&source=bl&ots=IM99EH-BeR&sig=Hoi9eGHO-A8zitG8l0PNHi8QdJo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VnMVVc-vPIeqgwSczIHICg&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=Japanese Internment Camp: Border Patrol&f=false

On a side note, in light of history, it is interesting to consider the ways that Asians are very big on Immigration Reform and often ignored. Asians Surpass Hispanics as Biggest Immigrant Wave . Specifically, Asian Americans* are the fastest-growing immigrant population in the United States today. According to 2011 Census data, almost half of all immigrants in the United States—18.2 million—came from Asia. It is not surprising that this group overwhelmingly supported President Barack Obama for re-election—by 68 percent—and cares deeply about fixing the immigration system. While it's the case that family sponsorship is the most common way that Asian immigrants arrive in the United States, with 55 percent of Asian immigrants coming through the family-visa system in 2012. However, while S. 744 creates new legal pathways for immigrants to enter the country, it also threatens family reunification by removing entirely the allocation for siblings of U.S. citizens.

• On Immigration Policy, Deportation Relief Seen As More Important Than Citizenship | Pew Research Center's Hispanic Trends Project

• For Asian Undocumented Immigrants, a Life of Secrecy - Zi Heng Lim - The Atlantic

• Another side of illegal immigration - Los Angeles Times

• Asian Immigrants To U.S. Now Surpass Hispanics

• Balancing Identities: Undocumented Immigrant Asian American Students and the Model Minority Myth - Asian Pacific Islanders Post

Angel Island: Immigrant Gateway to America - YouTube

"Paper Sons": Chinese American illegal immigrants - YouTube​

Asian Latin Americans are another group no one considers when it comes to the connections of Hispanics (on the Immigration issue) and Asians - and with the Chinese Exclusion Act in the 1800s for when it comes to the history of those migrants from Asian lands, it's truly something heavy to process on a myriad of levels:

Angel Island: Immigrant Gateway to America ​

• 'Angel Island': Ellis Island Of The West : NPR
• "Driven Out: The Forgotten War against Chinese Americans" ()
• Book Review: Angel Island: Immigrant Gateway to America by Erika " ( )
• "At America's Gates: Chinese Immigration during the Exclusion Era, 1882-1943
• "Strangers from a Different Shore: A History of Asian Americans, Updated and Revised Edition" ( )
• Afro Asia: Revolutionary Political and Cultural Connections between African Americans and Asian Americans

Again, What's sad (as mentioned earlier) is that everyone keeps focusing on the Latino-Americans as if they're the main ones needing to have amnesty when it's really Asian-Americans who are the largest immigrant group to the U.S - with them pushing Immigration Reform the most.

Immigration Reform, Health and the Asian American Pacific Islander Community - YouTube
Asian Americans Urge Comprehensive Immigration Reform - YouTube

Outside of the Bronie Patch of course it is. Unless you are one of those people who actually believe wars can be fought in which no one gets hurt.

It doesn't take believing that wars involve people getting hurt in order to know wars where others did not HAVE to get hurt had others had wisdom - and other times where people assume people were at war/tried to respond in kind rather than addressing how much extremes led to more problems - unless, of course you're one of those people believing people getting hurt is acceptable

It isn't a question of locking all immigrants away, it is a question of blocking illegal entry and limiting immigration to the previously established legal immigration process. You do remember the United States has a legal immigration process, right?

Same rhetoric used to lock others away who did not deserve it since the reality is that you already had American citizens locked away for some time due to bad immigration policies - and others seeking citizenship who were not treated properly - you do remember the U.S had several time sin history where legal immigratioin process DID allow for mass immigration, hopefully (lest we're ignoring history as well).....and you do remember how many times Native American tribal lands were consistently taken away in the name of mass immigration - initially beginning with those pushing Manifest Destiny and colonial settlers on the Frontier wanting land/pushing for it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In the midst of our discussion here, I do not want to forget my relations in Canada, to the First Nations, I also honor them. A'ho, Mitakuye Oyasin.
All My Relations: Honoring the First Nations - YouTube

I think it would also be honorable to remember those who were not Native American and yet also a part of helping other Native American groups out despite their mistreatment. I am reminded of what happened with the Japanese Internment camps. Native Americans were tied to that as well - for example, the Poston Relocation center, built on the Colorado River Indian Tribes reservation, served as one of ten internment camps built in seven states. Between 1942 and 1945, the Poston camps housed over 18,000 Japanese and Japanese American detainees ...with the center serving as a place to house thousands of Japanese detainees and being an infrastructure created by and for them to serve in recruiting more Native Americans from surrounding smaller reservations to the much larger and sparsely populated Colorado River Indian Tribes (CRIT) reservation, after the war

Here are the pictures of the actual camps on the Colorado River Indian Tribes ...
https://publicintelligence.net/japanese-internment-camps-war-relocation-authority-photos/

​

As it is, most of these prison camps were placed on Native American reservations, for which the Native Americans were never compensated, nor consulted. ...and unfortunately, the Native Americans consoled themselves that they might at least get to keep any improvements that were made to their land, but at the end of the war, all the buildings and gardens that were constructed were bulldozed or sold by the government instead.

And I am very thankful for other Japanese Americans who have done excellent research on the issue of showing where Native Americans and Japanese American lives intersected..

• Celebrating a shared history - LA Times

That aside, there were many other aspects besides that which make a world of difference when seeing the intersections. As another wisely noted, Japanese Americans leased land from the Yakama tribe in central Washington: "The reservation land was quite open land, although it was under the Yakama Nation. The Bureau of Indian Affairs had their land managers, and they had allotted the reservation land to various Native American families....It was an open land, and leasing was made easier for the Japanese."

• Passing Poston - Docurama - Docurama Films

• An Internment Camp Within an Internment Camp - ABC News

• Densho - Archive - Incarceration and Reservations: Japanese Americans Intersect with Native Americans

As it concerns the OP, when it comes to the mistreatment of Native Americans/Mexicans, it is sad to see how often there was development that has been brought to those groups at the expense of other minority groups - as we can see with the prison labor being done with immigrants. As another wisely noted, "the business of locking up immigrants. Not because there's more illegal immigration in America today - there's actually less - but because private prison lobbyists - with the help of paid-off lawmakers who write strict immigration laws like Arizona's SB1070 - are making sure more and more illegal - and sometimes legal - immigrants are rounded up and thrown in for-profit detention facilities around the country. Each new immigrant captured translates into over $70,000 a year for the private detention facility - so it's a pretty lucrative industry.

And to see the way that others are having profit made on the backs of mistreating immigrants/using them for slave labor - in the same way that the Japanese were used to help the American Indians on the Reservations - it is truly unfortunate. Some of this has been discussed more in-depth elsewhere before when speaking on immigration and Prison labor (as well as the locking up of Immigrants, including those who are legal) - as seen here:

I have often wondered how the President will ensure that he has a memorable legacy - and in processing the issue, what is surprising to me is that people on ALL sides have often ignored one the biggest issues that not only needs to be dealt with ...but that would ensure real change on the long term - and that change is with our American prison systems.

To be clear, I think part of establishing a good legacy is getting the finances placed in the right areas - as all sides have shown they don't have a problem spending and really it's more of an issue of showing where they want to have funding go. Getting immigration reform passed - with the Dream Act back on the table (in light of the many ways Latinos/Hispanics supported him on a myriad of ways he has already aided them ...more here/here) - is a big deal and something he needs to take seriously.


Howevwer, alongside immigration reform as a big focus, the president needs to do A LOT more focus on the ways that prison reform is in need of serious aid - especially as it concerns all the people complaining on higher taxes and the cry for spending less on social service programs (wrongly concluding that it's wrong for government to help) and yet remaining MUTE on the myriad of ways they won't address significant spending when it comes to the prison industrial complex which is harming minorities at substantial levels. It's sad enough that over 200,000 undocumented immigrants were detained last year in the two largest private prisons that are being backed by big investment banks such as Citigroup, Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase, and WellsFargo. ..and thus, while a lot of Republicans have issue with immigration reform, you don't hear any talk on prisoners being wrongly utilized.

Private businesses are making vast amounts of money running prisons to incarcerate non-violent drug offenders -with the Drug War being one of the greatest waste of money/resources (billions) and yet still allowed to occur since it targets other groups. This represents a huge waste of money. Litigator-turned-legal-scholar Michelle Alexander, author of The New Jim Crow, argues well that we have not ended racial caste in America, but instead we have simply redesigned it: The U.S. criminal justice system functions as a contemporary means of racial control, even as it formally adheres to the principle of color blindness. Her provocative new book challenges the civil rights community—and all of us—to place mass incarceration at the forefront of a new movement for racial justice in America. As the United States celebrates the nation's triumph over race with the election of Barack Obama, the majority of young black men in major American cities are locked behind bars or have been labeled felons for life......and can't find work once they get out of prison (even if/when they reform in prison and seek education to take care of their families on the outside - and thus, stay trapped in a system of corruption).

Prisoners: America's New Cheap Labor (ALEC Exposed)
Between Barack and a Hard Place: Challenging Racism, Privilege and Denial in the Age of Obama
The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness
Michelle Alexander: Drug War Racism
American Drug War:The Last White Hope (a kevin booth film)
Michelle Alexander on the War on Drugs and the Politics Behind It ​

.........

We have the money for a lot of things...but because the priorities aren't right in other areas, it messes up the entire equation on what a balanced budget looks like. Curtailing those things would do a lot as it concerns opening up resources for financial aid. A lot of what is occurring is similar to what happened in the film "Shawshank Redeemption" where the Warden begins exploiting prison labor for public works, profiting by undercutting skilled labor costs and receiving kickbacks ...very much like it is today when privatized prisons use prison labor for cheap work - and have the benefit of prisoners being seen as having no rights whatsoever to protest and having others involved in it such as Walmart and ALEC since billions are often made behind bars ..especially from migrants placed in jail - as discussed elsewhere in #102 / #108 ).

 

[Red Fox]

Gxg (G²), since this topic of giving a guilt trip was brought up by another member, I would like to address it. But first, I would like to make it perfectly clear that I was not the first one to bring the subject to light. I am not hijacking this thread or attempting to purposely take it off topic, which I have been accused of in the past when I would respond to certain comments made about Native Americans in other threads. Secondly, I would also like to make it perfectly clear that by me discussing this issue, it is not about intentionally making non-Native Americans feel guilty about what happened to my NDN ancestors in this country. I know that modern non-Native Americans living in the United States are not guilty of the past atrocities or the attempted genocide against my ancestors. But I would like to point out, as my Elders would often point out when this issue was brought up, that all non-Native Americans are inadvertently benefiting from what happened to our ancestors and they are, in fact, living on stolen NDN land. With that being said, I would also like to say that I find it very interesting when a non-Native becomes defensive and accuses me of giving them a guilt trip over what happened to my ancestors. I find this interesting because they are actually accusing themselves of feeling guilty. I say this because it is their own words that reflect what is actually in their heart. I seem to remember Jesus Christ teaching that from within the heart, the mouth speaks, and from out of the heart comes false testimony and slander (as well as many other evil thoughts). The Scriptural references are Matthew 15:18-20 and Mark 7:20-23. A person's words reflect their thoughts and reveals their true character, because their words and thoughts reveal what is truly in their own heart.

I would like to share a quote that I some times use when discussing this issue with a non-Native person. And it is: "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it" (Edmund Burke). For me to discuss the past atrocities and the terrorism committed against my ancestors or discuss the invasion and theft of my ancestral homeland or discuss the cultural genocide committed against my people, particularly our children or discuss the racial discrimination and social injustices my people still face today or discuss the exploitation of my culture and the racial stereotypes of my people for sports entertainment and profit or discuss the ravishing effects that foreign diseases had on the Native population in the past or discuss the genocide that desperately attempted to exterminate my entire race from the face of the planet, is my way of educating non-Native Americans of the real history of what happened to my ancestors in this country and what is still happening to my people today. This is the kind of history about Native Americans that is not taught in their schools. This is not the history that was written by the victors, who have changed the history of this country to better reflect and promote American imperialism, exceptionalism and patriotism. It is the real history of what happened to my ancestors and the social and economic problems my people still face today that make America look bad in the eyes of the world. It was the history of genocide committed against the Native Americans in this country that was one inspiration for Adolf Hitler to commit genocide against the Jews. And if non-Native Americans feel guilty about any of that or all of it, then that is not my doing, it is their own conscience that accuses them. However, I will not stop confronting what I see as hypocrisy concerning anti-immigration or stop discussing these issues or stop trying to educate or dispel any misinformation and lies that have been told about my people and my ancestors to deflect from the terrible effects and outcome of American imperialism and exceptionalism, which reared their ugly heads through the ideals of Manifest Destiny and under the guise of Christianity.

Gxg (G²), I am sorry if I have derailed your thread further by responding to the accusations of causing non-Native Americans to feel guilty over what happened to my ancestors. But I felt compelled to respond and dispel this accusation and expose it for what I believe it really is. I want to personally thank you for this thread and all the extensive efforts you have put into it. I have shared your information in this thread with many of my NDN friends and they all agree that it is very well done, and they are grateful.

 

[Sistrin]

Incorrect...and another red herring away from dealing with the OP.

I made no ad-hominem attack nor did I employ a red herring. I made an observation based on my experience in reading and responding to your post. If you are so sensitive you can't handle an observation, the fault isn't mine. In addition perhaps you should post the definition for straw man.

Or admit you just proved my point.

...and as I said, nothing too complicated on noting the bottom line issues you've YET to deal with.

I have dealt with your issues, not only here but as you pointed out elsewhere. What makes responding to you difficult is the sheer plethora of links you bombard readers with, and in order to respond one has to wade through determining which might be relevant and which irrelevant fluff. That and the assumed position of superiority you argue from. However.

The first image you posted in the OP features the words "Americans cannot be illegal in America," a phrase which completely ignores the fact anyone born within the confines of US borders is by definition native to America. It also ignores the fact people born in El Salvador are native to El Salvador, people born in Mexico are native to Mexico. It implies that simply because there were tribes indigenous to Mexico at one time the ancestors of those tribal members have some legitimate claim to the state of Texas. That seems to be your central argument, that all indigenous people, regardless of where they were indigenous to, are the same, and therefore have some right to claim territory in the continental United States and therefore the immigration policy of the United States negatively affects citizens of Native American descent.

If that is true, then I should be able to go to Florida and lay claim because hey, a percentage of my Native American ancestors once lived there.

You posted a youtube video of someone promoting herself as Ask Auntie, who offers her opinion concerning the question are Mexicans considered Native Americans as opposed to offering any fact. This is known of as incidental information, and as such bares little relevance in deciding an appropriate answer.

Continue further and it's further distraction from the OP - thus, derailing.

Oh, a threat. That is conducive to the dialogue you say you want.

Treaties made are always about accountability. It's the concept of following laws - just as with the U.S. Constitution (unless, of course, that is also a matter of not needing to be held accountable since it's ALSO from the past, if following the train of logic you've offered thus far).

And you can stop with the petty insults. But who do you want to hold accountable for a treaty broken over a century ago by people long dead?

Oh, right...

Anyone attempting to enforce US immigration law.

You are mixing two issues. Illegal immigration negatively impacts all Americans, and not just those with a chip on their shoulder or an ax to grind. The United States has a legal immigration policy and system in place. If that system were enforced you wouldn't have an issue here with Native Americans being harmed negatively by immigration and border control laws.

Trying an argument of "So you think we should just give back ALL THE LAND taken during the U.S. colonial expansion?!" is irrelevant...

Another straw man. I did not make that argument.

Whenever people try to assume that anyone for Immigration Reform or less Militarization of the U.S Borders is automatically for "Open Border", you know that you're dealing with a massive stereotype present.

Why do you insist on believing every comment made is specific to you? There is a large open border faction in this country, predominately Democrat and predominately due to the desire to create a new voting block. If Native Americans are being negatively impacted then it is now clear where the blame lies.

One, it was never just Democrats and it's really a slothful argument trying to simplify things down into "Democrat vs. Republican" when the reality is that even Conservatives have spoken out on the subject for what it is.

Another straw man. That a certain number of Republicans support a more lax immigration policy or even amnesty doesn't change the fact that amnesty, illegal immigration, and open borders are firmly within the political realm of liberal/progressive Democrats.

Native Americans were ALREADY here, Bruh -

I wasn't referring to the Japanese Americans in regard to Native Americans. I was referring to that incident in regard to the illegal immigration issue you tried to compare it to. I posted your words, you should have been able to see this.

It doesn't take believing that wars involve people getting hurt in order to know wars where others did not HAVE to get hurt had others had wisdom - and other times where people assume people were at war/tried to respond in kind rather than addressing how much extremes led to more problems - unless, of course you're one of those people believing people getting hurt is acceptable.

I am not really sure what point this word salad is supposed to make or support.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I made no ad-hominem attack nor did I employ a red herring.

As already said, the OP topic is this..

• Native Americans are harmed by certain Border Patrol Laws (Tohono O'odham and Apache as certain groups immediately referenced in example, etc.)
• Native Americans are Mexican as well and have experienced life in both the U.S as well as Mexican context historically (as noted plainly by what NPR said in their interview from The Map Of Native American Tribes You've Never Seen Before : Code Switch : NPR which was discussed alongside several University sites like Arizona State University already said on the issue in their interview as well as several other primary resources - in addition to tribal groups who've been in existence - each brought up directly in the documentaries or videos/U.S. history organizations where they spoke directly from the OP) and have had their tribal lands not respected in the U.S.
• Native American groups have protested the issue with regards to U.S. Border Patrol laws/practices and have had solidarity with Mexican immigrants especially when considering colonialism impacting Native Americans still with the mistreatment of Mexicans who are Native Americans - or Native Americans treated as illegal immigrants on their OWN land in the U.S. and ignoring historical precedents where others crossed over borders that were not set up in order to have connection with other tribes..

All of this was already laid out plainly and others responded in dealing with it, as noted here:

I was originally thinking of the United States, in general, particularly Indian Territory, which is now Oklahoma, when I made that statement. I was not referring to Tejas. I was also referring to what I see as hypocrisy and irony of anti-immigration complaints by non-Native people living in the United States.

Even for those who do support immigration laws rather than simply letting everyone cross over, it is sad to see that they are still being mistreated as if they are non-citizens. Again, the experiences of the Tohono O'odham (as the territory of their reservation is literally cut in half by the imaginary we call the American/Mexican border) - it is the busiest crossing point along the U.S/Mexico border.....and they are being treated as illegal immigrants on their own land.

• Living in No-Man's Land | Cultural Survival

• Fence In The Sky: Border Wall Cuts Through Native Land - The Native Press

It's interesting seeing as another noted best that "due to US border policies at funnel migrants through the harsh Arizona desert, thousands of people have crossed and died on Tohono O&#8217;odham lands" - more in Jose Antonio Lucero: &#8220;Frictions of Conversion and Contention: Religion and Activism in the Tohono O&#8217;odham Borderlands&#8221;[/URL] and others who are worth looking up on the issue would be people like Mike Wilson (more in the documentary Man in the Maze as well as Crossing Arizona and The 800 Mile Wall on Border Control), who has been causing waves with his helping out of migrants despite what other tribal leaders have said in disagreement.

• Ground Zero: The Tohono O'odham Nation

• Mike Wilson: Border Patrol is occupying army

Michael Wilson on Border Patrol & Tohono O'odham Legislature - YouTube

Border Patrol Nation ? - YouTube

TORN APART: Mike Wilson - YouTube

Crossing Arizona 3 - YouTube

Tohono O'odham and U S Border Patrol - YouTube



And for an actual map illustrating the reality that they are living in, one can go to Tohono O'odham Nation &#8211; Living through the border | U.S. - Mexico Borderlands and see the following as well as other illustrations helping to show the ways that Border Control has harmed Native Americans...

Even for people speaking in respect of Native Americans living in the U.S and saying their lands should be protected, we unfortunately do not acknowledge the ways that anti-immigration laws do not respect them as much as others claim. As noted earlier, Lipan Apache lands are in danger of confiscation and it has made a world of difference with the Border Patrols being directly responsible for discrimination toward them (as well as potential removal of their lands for more space - thus more of the same that American Indians have gone through with changes always happening) and other NDS groups - with the goal of the Border Patrol often focusing on those from Mexico even though they are Native American......and attached is the actual imagery of their land situation (which can also be found here in IN A BORDER WORLD ? Colonization under the guise of &#8220;immigrant rights&#8221; ). Others from the Apache nation have actively protested on the issue, as seen below...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4ElGBv9REE

• The Situation at the Texas-Mexico Border and the Racially Discriminatory Impact of the Border Wall on the Lipan Apache (Cúelcahén Ndé) Peoples in Texas

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The topic is simple enough, dude.

I made an observation based on my experience in reading and responding to your post. If you are so sensitive you can't handle an observation, the fault isn't mine. In addition perhaps you should post the definition for straw man.

More of the same is continuing, unfortunately, on your part with appeals to emotion - as speaking in dramatic fashion as if not listening to you is not listening to anyone's correction is pointless ad-hominem - as well as avoiding the bottom line point of the OP, which you've again avoided as usual. The topic is not about your experience reading/responding - seeing that no one ever felt it was universal and others in the thread already dealt with the issue, just as they called you out for failing to do so before over moot points. The topic is the OP - and it is already evident that perhaps there's a level of sensitivty for you in others not giving heed to things you espouse that aren't that important to the central issue of the OP.

If you're going to detract from the OP, there are better ways to do it. Thus far, you're already derailing and it will be taken to the Mods if you cannot respect the OP purposes without the wrangling.​