National Israel is cursed forever ! (2)

[Biblewriter]

Incorrect,
Romans 11:4-6




4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.


The remnant was present during Paul's day and it is present with us today. The remnant is already in the world. They're members of the Israel of God. And what is the Israel of God, you ask?





Galatians 6:15-16


15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.




Ephesians 2:11-13




11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.




Galatians 3:28-29




28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.




1 Peter 2:5




5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.




1 Peter 2:9




9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;


You're vision of the Aliyah is pretty bleak and bloody and entails a second holocaust for the Jews. Alot of Christians believe in this due to the works of Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHaye, and most televangelists if not all are Christian Zionists too.

You string together a lot of disconnected verses and imagine that you are demonstrating something. Then you turn aroud and flatly deny a multitude os scriptures that explicitly say what you are claiming are only our imagination.

I am not going to go over them again, because I have already quoted many scriptures that explicitly say it, and you simply refuse to believe what God has said.

 

[random person]

You string together a lot of disconnected verses and imagine that you are demonstrating something. Then you turn aroud and flatly deny a multitude os scriptures that explicitly say what you are claiming are only our imagination.

I am not going to go over them again, because I have already quoted many scriptures that explicitly say it, and you simply refuse to believe what God has said.

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Corinthians 7:19

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Galatians 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Galatians 6:15

where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Colossians 3:11

How many times does Paul have to say it, BW?

And do you not know the significance of circumcision amongst the Jews?

And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14

Basically, under the New Covenant, the Jews has no advantages over the Gentiles and the Gentiles has no advantages over the Jews.

God is no longer dealing with national Israel, God is only dealing with the Church here-on out. God is no longer dealing with tribal issues like He did under the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant died in Christ FOREVER. But you dispensationalists keep trying to revive it, like a zombie or the Frankenstein Monster. All the promises and blessings of Abraham belong to the church now, and every tribe, kindreds, nations, and tongues that believes upon Christ unto the ends of the earth.

 

[riverrat]

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Corinthians 7:19

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Galatians 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Galatians 6:15

where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Colossians 3:11

How many times does Paul have to say it, BW?

And do you not know the significance of circumcision amongst the Jews?

And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14

Basically, under the New Covenant, the Jews has no advantages over the Gentiles and the Gentiles has no advantages over the Jews.

God is no longer dealing with national Israel, God is only dealing with the Church here-on out. God is no longer dealing with tribal issues like He did under the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant died in Christ FOREVER. But you dispensationalists keep trying to revive it, like a zombie or the Frankenstein Monster. All the promises and blessings of Abraham belong to the church now, and every tribe, kindreds, nations, and tongues that believes upon Christ unto the ends of the earth.

The new covenant is for Israel and Judah. It is not for the church, the body of Christ
The church has not replaced Israel. Replacement theology is false doctrine.

 

[ACT]

Rat,

It appears you have read Jeremiah 31:31-33.....

 

[riverrat]

Rat,

It appears you have read Jeremiah 31:31-33.....

I have also read Hebrews 8:8

 

[ACT]

I have also read Hebrews 8:8

 

[Dispy]

random person:
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Corinthians 7:19

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Galatians 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Galatians 6:15

where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Colossians 3:11

How many times does Paul have to say it?

BigD:
I am in 100% agreement with you on the above Scripture verses.
----------
random person:
And do you not know the significance of circumcision amongst the Jews?

And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14

BigD:
I'm in 100% agreement with those verses to.
-----------
random person:
Basically, under the New Covenant, the Jews has no advantages over the Gentiles and the Gentiles has no advantages over the Jews.

BigD:
The New Covenant is not yet in effect, and won't be until the second coming of Christ to establish His earthly kingdom.
----------
random person:
God is no longer dealing with national Israel, God is only dealing with the Church here-on out. God is no longer dealing with tribal issues like He did under the Old Covenant.

BigD:
That is true since God gave Israel temporary slumbering eyes because of there rejection of the Trinity. See Rom. 10:1-3, 11:7-12, 25.

random person:
The Old Covenant died in Christ FOREVER. But you dispensationalists keep trying to revive it, like a zombie or the Frankenstein Monster. All the promises and blessings of Abraham belong to the church now, and every tribe, kindreds, nations, and tongues that believes upon Christ unto the ends of the earth.

BigD:
Why would we dispensationalists (members of the Church, the Body of Christ) want to revive a covenant that was never meant for us?

The New Covenant is only with the house of Israel, and the house of Judah (Jer. 31, Heb. 8)

All the promises and blessings to Abraham are for the nation of Israel. They are all earthly promises.

All members of the Church, the Body of Christ have eternal heavenly promises (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1, Phil. 3:20).

However, there is one promise that we members of the Body of Christ have in common with Israel. That is a means of salvation. We both have that promise.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by ACT

Rat,

It appears you have read Jeremiah 31:31-33.....
​

I have also read Hebrews 8:8

I have a thread conderning that topic over on the GT board

http://www.christianforums.com/t7326950-12/
New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 Hebrew 8

I was looking at the New Covenant mentioned in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrew 8. The hebrew word "#03772 is used in vs 31 of Jeremiah and generally denotes "cut" in most of the OT. But in Hebrew 8:8 the greek word #4931 is used denoting a "full finish" and it has the prefics "sun" with it.

We know JESUS finished the first part of this when He proclaimed "It is Finished" on the Cross. I will put up verses 32 and 33 as we go along.
Btw, does anyone know where I can find an LXX translation of Jeremiah 31:31-33 that has the strong #s with it?
Thanks for any input on this.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold! days, ones coming a declaration of YHWH and I-Cut/Make/03772 karath with the house of Yisra'el and with the house of Y@huwdah a Covenant, New

03772 karath {kaw-rath'} a primitive root; TWOT - 1048; v
1) to cut, cut off, cut down, cut off a body part, cut out, eliminate, kill, cut a covenant

Hebrews 8:8
"For faulting to-them He is saying 'behold! days are coming is saying Lord and I shall-be-together-finishing/sun-telesw <4931> (5692) upon the house of Israel and upon the house of Judah a Covenant, New'

Textus Rec.) Hebrews 8:8
memfomenoV gar autoiV legei idou hmerai ercontai legei kurioV kai suntelesw epi ton oikon israhl kai epi ton oikon iouda diaqhkhn kainhn

4931. sunteleo soon-tel-eh'-o from 4862 and 5055; to complete entirely; generally, to execute (literally or figuratively):--end, finish, fulfil, make.
4862. sun soon a primary preposition denoting union; with or together
5055. teleo tel-eh'-o from 5056; to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):--accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

.

 

[Biblewriter]

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Corinthians 7:19

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Galatians 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Galatians 6:15

where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Colossians 3:11

How many times does Paul have to say it, BW?

And do you not know the significance of circumcision amongst the Jews?

And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14

Basically, under the New Covenant, the Jews has no advantages over the Gentiles and the Gentiles has no advantages over the Jews.

God is no longer dealing with national Israel, God is only dealing with the Church here-on out. God is no longer dealing with tribal issues like He did under the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant died in Christ FOREVER. But you dispensationalists keep trying to revive it, like a zombie or the Frankenstein Monster. All the promises and blessings of Abraham belong to the church now, and every tribe, kindreds, nations, and tongues that believes upon Christ unto the ends of the earth.

You are completely mistaken in even imagining that we dispensationalists "keep trying to revive" the old covenant. You say that you were taught this in early years, but you never really listened to your teachers.

Dispensationalism very clearly teaches that the Old Covenant is indeed over and done with forever. We teach this because the scriptures themselves, in speaking of the promised restoration of Israel, very clearly say:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

This is so important that it is repeated in Hebrews 8, saying:

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: 'Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, "Know the LORD," for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.'
In that He says, 'A new covenant,"' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:7-13)

You see, the difference is that dispensationalists believe what the scriptures actually say, not what someone tells us they mean.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You are completely mistaken in even imagining that we dispensationalists "keep trying to revive" the old covenant. You say that you were taught this in early years, but you never really listened to your teachers.

Dispensationalism very clearly teaches that the Old Covenant is indeed over and done with forever. We teach this because the scriptures themselves, in speaking of the promised restoration of Israel, very clearly say:

You see, the difference is that dispensationalists believe what the scriptures actually say, not what someone tells us they mean.

Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 are fulfilled on OC Jews of the flesh.

The only way the OC Jews/Isrealites will be restored is thru the Faith and Belief unto our, and theirs, Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.


.

 

[random person]

You are completely mistaken in even imagining that we dispensationalists "keep trying to revive" the old covenant. You say that you were taught this in early years, but you never really listened to your teachers.

Dispensationalism very clearly teaches that the Old Covenant is indeed over and done with forever. We teach this because the scriptures themselves, in speaking of the promised restoration of Israel, very clearly say:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

This is so important that it is repeated in Hebrews 8, saying:

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: 'Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, "Know the LORD," for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.'
In that He says, 'A new covenant,"' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:7-13)

You see, the difference is that dispensationalists believe what the scriptures actually say, not what someone tells us they mean.

Christ Himself is the promised restoration of Israel! Only what the Restoration of Israel is going to receive is not a sliver of land in the Middle East about the size of New Jersey, but a whole New Heavens, New Earth, and New Jerusalem.

Jews and Gentiles believers in Christ is Israel and we are not to look forward to the restoration of Israel in the Middle East but towards a whole New Heavens, New Earth, and New Jerusalem.

What do you think Paul meant in Hebrews 8:6?

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises [A New Heavens, A New Earth, & New Jerusalem]

Or what do you think Paul meant in Hebrews 11:8-16?

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. [A New Heavens, A New Earth, & New Jerusalem]11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: [New Heavens & New Earth]wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.[New Jerusalem]

And what did Paul mean when he wrote the Old Covenants saints and prophets should not be made perfect without the New Covenant saints in Hebrews 11:38-40? (hint, hint, we are going to receive the same inheritance, its emboldened above!!!!!!) I reiterate, what did Paul mean by this statement that the OC saints should not be made perfect without the NC saints?

(of whom the world was not worthy: ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[riverrat]

Christ Himself is the promised restoration of Israel! Only what the Restoration of Israel is going to receive is not a sliver of land in the Middle East about the size of New Jersey, but a whole New Heavens, New Earth, and New Jerusalem.

Jews and Gentiles believers in Christ is Israel and we are not to look forward to the restoration of Israel in the Middle East but towards a whole New Heavens, New Earth, and New Jerusalem.

What do you think Paul meant in Hebrews 8:6?

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises [A New Heavens, A New Earth, & New Jerusalem]

Or what do you think Paul meant in Hebrews 11:8-16?

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. [A New Heavens, A New Earth, & New Jerusalem]11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: [New Heavens & New Earth]wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.[New Jerusalem]

And what did Paul mean when he wrote the Old Covenants saints and prophets should not be made perfect without the New Covenant saints in Hebrews 11:38-40? (hint, hint, we are going to receive the same inheritance, its emboldened above!!!!!!) I reiterate, what did Paul mean by this statement that the OC saints should not be made perfect without the NC saints?

(of whom the world was not worthy: ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The body of Christ (the Church) is not Israel. Replacement theology continues to raise its ugly head!

 

[Biblewriter]

Christ Himself is the promised restoration of Israel! Only what the Restoration of Israel is going to receive is not a sliver of land in the Middle East about the size of New Jersey, but a whole New Heavens, New Earth, and New Jerusalem.

Jews and Gentiles believers in Christ is Israel and we are not to look forward to the restoration of Israel in the Middle East but towards a whole New Heavens, New Earth, and New Jerusalem.

What do you think Paul meant in Hebrews 8:6?

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises [A New Heavens, A New Earth, & New Jerusalem]

Or what do you think Paul meant in Hebrews 11:8-16?

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. [A New Heavens, A New Earth, & New Jerusalem]11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: [New Heavens & New Earth]wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.[New Jerusalem]

And what did Paul mean when he wrote the Old Covenants saints and prophets should not be made perfect without the New Covenant saints in Hebrews 11:38-40? (hint, hint, we are going to receive the same inheritance, its emboldened above!!!!!!) I reiterate, what did Paul mean by this statement that the OC saints should not be made perfect without the NC saints?

(of whom the world was not worthy: ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

It is simply unbelief to use your interpretations of the meaning of one scripture as an excuse to reject the plain statements of so many other scriptures, Like Ezekiel 36, where "the mountains of Israel," with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, and the cities that have been forsaken" (verse 4) will again be inhabited by "all the house of Israel, all of it." (verse 10) Or like Ezekiel 47, where we are given an explicitly stated definition of the borders of the land in that day. These are so precisely given that, even at this time, it is still possible to draw a map of the land. These are only two of a great many such explicitly stated scriptures.

 

[Zeek]

I think when the evidence of prophecy is being revealed in these times, then perhaps we need to adjust our thinking according to Scripture and forsake some long cherished theologies. Supporting the nation of Israel is vastly different from believing that this present nation is the zenith of G-ds intentions...but it is blindingly obvious that the return of the Jewish people to their historic homeland, the revival of Hebrew and the redemption of the land is probably the biggest miracle the world has ever seen...and even though many of the people who led the Jewish people to form a nation were Atheists and Agnostics behind it all lies a divine structure that IMO is unfathomable.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You are completely mistaken in even imagining that we dispensationalists "keep trying to revive" the old covenant. You say that you were taught this in early years, but you never really listened to your teachers................

You see, the difference is that dispensationalists believe what the scriptures actually say, not what someone tells us they mean.

So do non-Dispensationalists

http://www.christianforums.com/t7830083/

Originally Posted by Tellastory

just stick with scripture by leaning on Jesus Christ in learning of Him & His promises to you for eternal life as well as living as His as His disciple.
​

Isn't that the same introductory statement from all the denominations??

.

 

[Danoh]

I think when the evidence of prophecy is being revealed in these times, then perhaps we need to adjust our thinking according to Scripture and forsake some long cherished theologies. Supporting the nation of Israel is vastly different from believing that this present nation is the zenith of G-ds intentions...but it is blindingly obvious that the return of the Jewish people to their historic homeland, the revival of Hebrew and the redemption of the land is probably the biggest miracle the world has ever seen...and even though many of the people who led the Jewish people to form a nation were Atheists and Agnostics behind it all lies a divine structure that IMO is unfathomable.

You might consider which is it we should go by, what you have referred to as "the evidence of prophecy," or "adjust our thinking according to Scripture"?

For, per Acts 7:51, in light of Matt. 12:30-32, and Rom. 2:26, 27 and 11:25-29, and Acts 28, Israel is in Uncircumcision, Lo Ammi, the signs accompanying its prophetic clock, are, together with that clock, on hold "till the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Thus, the state of Israel is there of its own "Never Again" motivated volition.

That when God once more starts up Israel's last days countdown, He will make use of Israel being back in the land does not mean He put them there in the land they once more occupy anymore than He raised up fallen Gentile governments against Israel. Rather, as Jesus informed Pilate, God allowed his [Pilate's] government to come into its own, and then used them to punish Israel by withdrawing His Hand from Israel for their disobediance, but also, that the land have its Sabbaths - which it certainly is presently not having, as Israel is there in disobediance!

Of course, all that is from my Mid-Acts Perspective - which understands an amazing destiny yet awaits Israel - just not what is presently taking place, as, again, Israel is in Uncircumcision during this Mystery age - just another Uncircumcision nation during this age; in need of "the gospel of the Uncircumcision," thus Paul's going to those of his beloved, heartbreaking nation, in hopes that some might get saved through his distinct "my gospel."

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zeek

I think when the evidence of prophecy is being revealed in these times, then perhaps we need to adjust our thinking according to Scripture and forsake some long cherished theologies. Supporting the nation of Israel is vastly different from believing that this present nation is the zenith of G-ds intentions...but it is blindingly obvious that the return of the Jewish people to their historic homeland, the revival of Hebrew and the redemption of the land is probably the biggest miracle the world has ever seen...and even though many of the people who led the Jewish people to form a nation were Atheists and Agnostics behind it all lies a divine structure that IMO is unfathomable.
​

You might consider which is it we should go by, what you have referred to as "the evidence of prophecy," or "adjust our thinking according to Scripture"?

For, per Acts 7:51, in light of Matt. 12:30-32, and Rom. 2:26, 27 and 11:25-29, and Acts 28, Israel is in Uncircumcision, Lo Ammi, the signs accompanying its prophetic clock, are, together with that clock, on hold "till the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Thus, the state of Israel is there of its own "Never Again" motivated volition.

Hi Danoh (been busy sorry for late reply).

I think what you have written sums up for me the strange phenomena that pervades so much Christian thinking, and is almost identical with the sort of thinking many in the Jewish community had when Jesus walked the earth...namely they used Scripture itself to try and work against what was staring them in the face....for example John 7:52, although there are numerous examples where the learned scholars and Rabbis would attempt to refute Jesus.

In the instance of Israel, many Christians either take what might loosely be called the 'Replacement Theology' stance: where they believe the Church has replaced Israel, or become part of Israel or even become Israel and that natural Israel no longer figures in the plans of G-d or some such.
Or they know G-d has not finished with Israel but blind themselves with Scripture to what is taking place before their very eyes.

Many accounts in Scripture; especially those incorporating prophetic events, are painted with broad brush-strokes and the fuller picture lies hidden or dormant until the Holy Spirit activates peoples understanding and our eyes are opened...however I have observed so many people who claim to have in depth understanding of these things and yet their speculations all vary enormously.

Personally I believe that G-d initiated the rebirth of present day Israel and set a series of events in place that would cause His people to return to the land of their forefathers in the most miraculous of ways....and the fact that this tiny nation is now one of the top five strong nations in the world is not just down to the IDF or IAF or the determination to never let something as terrible as the Holocaust ever again decimate them.

That when God once more starts up Israel's last days countdown, He will make use of Israel being back in the land does not mean He put them there in the land they once more occupy anymore than He raised up fallen Gentile governments against Israel. Rather, as Jesus informed Pilate, God allowed his [Pilate's] government to come into its own, and then used them to punish Israel by withdrawing His Hand from Israel for their disobediance, but also, that the land have its Sabbaths - which it certainly is presently not having, as Israel is there in disobediance!

I believe we are seeing an ongoing process where G-d is still bringing His people back to the land....last year for the first time in nearly 2,000 years there were more Jewish people in Israel than in any single area on earth.
Yes as a nation they are still in disobedience, but Ezekiel 36 makes it clear that He doesn't bring them back to the land because they are suddenly less stubborn, more faithful, and no longer disobedient but He brings them back for His own Name's sake, and will clean them up in the land.

Of course, all that is from my Mid-Acts Perspective - which understands an amazing destiny yet awaits Israel - just not what is presently taking place, as, again, Israel is in Uncircumcision during this Mystery age - just another Uncircumcision nation during this age; in need of "the gospel of the Uncircumcision," thus Paul's going to those of his beloved, heartbreaking nation, in hopes that some might get saved through his distinct "my gospel."

Israel is not 'just another nation in uncircumcision' they are now and always have been 'Beloved', 'Chosen', 'Set Apart' and the 'Apple of G-ds Eye'....even though collectively and spiritually they are in uncircumcision.

In many ways it appears that G-d has caused Israel to come to the fore, even in her present State...to test the nations, and to test how Christians react to His people Israel. Much of what I have witnessed from different Christian groups is appalling as I see so many actually siding with the enemies of Israel and indirectly aligning themselves with Islam and those that hate G-ds people...or else they use and promote Israel for their own theological ends.

 

[Danoh]

Zeek, I will respectfully have to disagree that God is testing the nations as to their treatment of Israel, as this is an AGE of His offer of Grace and Peace in Son to all DIRECTLY without distinction. That He will test the nations as to whether or not they gave Israel a cup of cold water during the trying of her faith in the AGE TO COME, is when that will be the case, Matthew 24; 25, in light of Romans 11.

The way to God during this present age is in Uncircumcision, which began with Paul as that was his and his beloved nation's status when God stopped him dead in the Uncircumcision of his blaspheming heart - saving him by His Grace - "the gospel of the grace of God" per "the Mystery" in contrast to "the gospel of the kingdom" prophesied in Daniel.

The very Tribulation is according to the Law, Daniel 9 [at this point I shall simply ignore those who gainsay Pre-Trib, as they fail to distinguish between Israel's PROPHESIED Destiny, and the Body's [KEPT SECRET til Paul].

Paul was saved in Uncircumcision "FOR A PATTERN TO THEM WHICH SHOULD HEREAFTER BELIEVE," 1 Tim. 1.

 

[Zeek]

Zeek, I will respectfully have to disagree that God is testing the nations as to their treatment of Israel, as this is an AGE of His offer of Grace and Peace in Son to all DIRECTLY without distinction. That He will test the nations as to whether or not they gave Israel a cup of cold water during the trying of her faith in the AGE TO COME, is when that will be the case, Matthew 24; 25, in light of Romans 11.

That's ok, but all the evidence I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears indicates that this nation of Israel has become a test to the nations in general, and a test to all who name the Name of Jesus in particular...a sort of role reversal of Judges 3:1-4.

 

[SolomonVII]

The very title of this thread damns orthodox Christianity forever.

Does God hate?