Discussion NAR when did it go wrong, what faults can you list?

[Si_monfaith]

Devil is shaking in his boots? How cud he do that when his head was crushed by Lord's death 2000yrs back?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Devil is shaking in his boots? How cud he do that when his head was crushed by Lord's death 2000yrs back?

 

[Blade]

Global Awakening holds yearly Voice of the Apostles and Voice of the Prophets conferences, and I like them. Ps Randy is head, and I wonder what faults people find with him.

15 years ago, Benny Hinn and Randy Clark were friends and in the blessings of God, but they disagree now, on Todd Bentley last I heard.

For me.. if people say and do things that are not written I do not listen to them any more. There are sites that have ALL kinds of belief under one roof.. and nothing gets said..hmm..

I once read a thread where they were going on and on about the late Oral Roberts. Now I was wise enough to know Oral was not there to say or defend himself so I said nothing. I didnt follow the man watch him.. seen him from time to time on TV..SOMETHING GOOD IS GOING.. anyway. Me being no one.. when to the man him self and asked him about what they were saying. WOW..it was NOTHING like they were going on and on about. See we cant just watch a video and then think we KNOW the person. Me.. I try to talk to them face to face.

My question is.. can't you ask the Father/Jesus about this? Well if Jesus is in the Father the Father in Jesus in YOU and then the Sweet sweet holy Spirit is where? IN YOU and then HE tells you ALL He hears.. ooh and then its written.. GOD is IN YOU to work and to? And Jesus said.. MY sheep..ok whos are you? Ok Jesus said.. oops...GOD said.. my sheep KNOW my voice and the voice of a stranger they will not follow. See if you ask MAN and there wisdom in this.. asking like this..yet so many times all you get back is just what they see and hear.. does not = what your Father sees and hears.

So make sure what is said by them is written. Dont get silly and well they never raised there hands or they fell down or one person started jumping around or no one did. Is the WORD being preached? When the PREACHER does says things that are not written.. I me..leave. Yet I would talk to them 1st. So pray.. ask Jesus.. dont wonder if HE hears you.. He does.. so KNOW He will tell you. It will have peace in it.. it will not talk evil or negative about anyone..will always bring Glory to HIM.

 

[AGTG]

It's interesting, as I was a part of this NAR movement and recently came out from the deception. As I did so, and was researching, I actually found out exactly where this mess started. And, of course, it's no surprise:

Benny Hinn!

 

[AGTG]

I have the gift of discernment, but the gift does not come with instructions.
You have to live and learn ...
the Lord Jesus has allowed me to make many mistakes in order to teach me a lesson.

I was delivered from Todd Bentley and all of his followers in the summer of 2008 ...
You shall know them by their fruit, no more phony revivals for me: http://www.revivalhotline.com/

Praise God for delivering you. And while there will be no more phoney revivals for you and I, it may be this movement is brewing up an ecumenical endtime false revival with none other than the Catholic Church. Here are some videos exposing this new development from the last 6 months. These NAR characters are beginning to really show their hand (likely because they have so many under their delusion by now):

Lou Engle kissing priest's feet

Todd White praying for unity with catholics:

Ihop university now has an "ecumenical" catholic track at their school:

 

[AGTG]

NAR very much exists

You're right, and after much research on the matter it's clear this is a well-coordinated and deceptive movement overtaking Christendom right now.

 

[AGTG]

Here are two quotes from wikipedia:

"The title New Apostolic Reformation is descriptive of a theological movement and is not an organization and therefore does not have formal membership."
..."informal and generally unadvertised far ranging governmental structure."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation

But it does have a structure, it's just it's only really recognized by those within the movement:

 

[AGTG]

For me.. if people say and do things that are not written I do not listen to them any more. There are sites that have ALL kinds of belief under one roof.. and nothing gets said..hmm..

lol Gee, what sites are you talking about?

Mass-media = mass-manipulation

Really, television, radio, the internet have proven themselves to be a playground for the devil to deceive people. Christians should be on their guard about doctrine and conduct more than ever now.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But it does have a structure, it's just it's only really recognized by those within the movement:

The ICA or International Coalition of Apostles is organized. They hide their membership sheets but old ones exist.

 

[jiminpa]

NVM

 

[ToBeLoved]

NVM

Nice to see you too bro

 

[Jason Sanders]

I'm going to stir the pot a bit here by pointing that word we read as "apostle" in the NT is, in the Greek, something more along the lines of "One who is sent", with the implicaton being that they are sent by God. So, technically speaking, wouldn't that make anyone and everyone ever sent by God anywhere, for anything, an apostle?

 

[AGTG]

I'm going to stir the pot a bit here by pointing that word we read as "apostle" in the NT is, in the Greek, something more along the lines of "One who is sent", with the implicaton being that they are sent by God. So, technically speaking, wouldn't that make anyone and everyone ever sent by God anywhere, for anything, an apostle?

Really, that's the crux of the idea. However, the NAR movement has built itself on its erroneous teachings around the 5 fold ministry giftings listed in Ephesians, their bad ideas about the laying on of hands and imparting things to others, and the notion that all of a sudden God is doing something special and different the last 20 years.

 

[AGTG]

<Staff Edit> what scripture does the NAR violate? I keep asking and I keep getting everything but scripture.

That's a fair enough question, and I have a well-reasoned, scriptural response. But first, do not presume I'm a cessationist. I'm not. That being said, the Spiritual gifts are not something that people can switch off and on like the NAR ministries teach. They manifest according to God's will as He deems necessary. That may not be as fun as telling a whole congregation to turn and prophesy over one another, though.

And the real issue is that doing such a thing is like erring like Saul did in the Old Testament when he refused to wait on Father God and instead went running after the Witch of Endor. He was able to get into some supernatural stuff, but his end should be a warning for us to be wiser than he.

Jesus Versus the New Apostolic Reformation
​

This movement opposes clear scripture on so many points it's astonishing:

Numbers 11:4-6 recounts how the Israelites grumbled and lamented having to eat the manna.

That manna, of course, was a foreshadow of Jesus Christ and the supernatural provision of God! Yet these people wanted something more, something exciting to their taste-buds, something that tickled their flesh. The simple, pure provision of God wasn't enough. Sound familiar?

Colossians 2:18-19 warns against people who indulge in sensuous, mystical experiences that puff up their minds and draw them away from obedience to Jesus.

Most of the notable ministries in this movement (Ihop KC, Fire School of Ministry, Morningstar Ministries, and Bethel, among others) have long histories that clearly show their ministries were, in fact, built upon such people and their experiences.

Mark 12:38-40 warns against leaders who devour widow's estates.

Many of these ministries are known for their aggressive fundraising, including encouraging followers to consider "estate planning" in offering their financial support.

Matthew 21:12-13 shows how ungodly it is to hawk goods in a place that has been dedicated to worship God.

Yet the leaders of this movement push their new books from the very pulpit! Then they encourage everyone to stop at the tables they set up to buy before they leave the building.

Matthew 23:15 is a rebuke to those eager to travel halfway across the world in order to make disciples which are nothing more than clones of themselves.

The ministry leaders in this movement globe-trot continually in order to heap up disciples unto themselves. The frequent flyer miles these people amass yearly would shock most people. Moreover, these people are so bent on making clones of themselves, their disciples literally walk, talk, pray, and act just like them!

This is no exaggeration. After watching countless hours of the Ihop KC prayer room web stream I could easily spot which leaders trained whom when they parade themselves through their prayer sessions.

1 Corinthians 3:16-20 plainly states that anyone who embraces the wisdom of the world is deceived and in opposition to God's wisdom.

Over and over again, you will find examples of this movement utilizing worldly reasoning and plans in the guise of working for the Kingdom of God. An example of this is the worldly pyramid scheme structure of the ministries themselves. Peter Wagner, himself, has clearly stated that he embraces worldly ideas as a means to effect ministry.

Dr. Michael L. Brown also pushes worldly models as a means to serving God. His book "Revolution in the Church" clearly points to the 60's counter-culture movement as a model for Christians to co-opt for ministry.

Acts 8:18-22 shows how wicked it is to even consider using the power of God for monetary gain.

Many of these ministries offer costly conferences or fundraising events which feature the opportunity to have them lay hands on you. Reinhard Bonnke and Daniel Kolenda of Christ for All Nations have literally marketed what they call an "Impartation Breakfast."

1 Timothy 5:22 states Christian leaders should not be hasty in the laying on of hands.

These movements are so far off the mark on this point it is shameful. They stumble into any opportunity to lay hands on others or have others lay hands on them. Bethel church's notorious fire tunnel practice is widespread, and I witnessed and participated in many myself at Fire School of Ministry.

1 Samuel 24:11 says not to "touch" the LORD's anointed.

This movement has pushed this idea to such an extreme that they suggest you can't even question or rebuke someone who is off the rails doctrinally, even though David clearly meant physical harm because in the two times David says it he clearly rebukes Saul for his ungodly, out of bounds behaviors.

1 Corinthian 13:8 clearly shows that love is way more important to God than operating in any demonstration of power.

These ministries are absolutely obsessed with supernatural power and religious authority, and completely devoid of genuine love. The truest test is how they treat those who question or oppose their ideas.

I really hate to have to state such a thing, but after a number of years participating in various churches connected to this movement, I was faced with one of two conclusions: Either Christianity is a very, very nasty business, or something is very, very wrong with this movement.

Hebrews 9:22 and 11:4 show two things: that without the shedding of blood there can be no atonement for sin, and Abel's sacrifice was based upon faith in God.

Multiple times, I've heard preached that Cain's offering was not acceptable because it wasn't his "first-fruit" offering. In other words, congregants had better give ministries the first cut of their income.

Meanwhile, that scripture is meant to support the foreshadow of Christ's blood sacrifice in Abel's offering! Cain's offering was unacceptable not because it wasn't his first-fruit offering, but because it lacked blood and was not motivated by faith in God.

2 Corinthians 9:7 shows God's heart for those who give: He wants us to give cheerfully, and not under compulsion.

Overwhelmingly, this movement demands 10% from their followers. They compel people using Old Testament scriptures which do not apply to New Covenant believers, but will draw people into legalism and a very deep level of submission.

Matthew 6:5 warns against making a show of prayer in public.

Mike Bickle has built his current ministry on literally making a show of prayer in public with Ihop KC's 24/7 web stream of their prayer room. Moreover, most leaders in the New Apostolic Reformation pride themselves on how "prayerful" they are as a so-called "prophetic" movement.

John 13:10 plainly states that those who believe and follow Jesus are clean in His eyes.

This movement demands Christians to participate in deliverance ministry suggesting they are demon infested and need to be cleansed. Why do they do this? Because it draws people who agree with them to a deep level of submission and a deep deception.

John 13:35 states that Christians will be known by their love for one another.

The prophetic teachings of this movement push a very nasty idea that anyone who has a prophetic calling will be readily abused and rejected by authorities and brethren. How many people within these churches are under the delusion that the abuse they're facing is simply because they are so "prophetic" and God has appointed them to such treatment?

Ephesians 5:1 says to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

This movement believes that means to submit out of reverence for Christ within other men, meanwhile the Old Testament is full of God's warnings to treat people right out of fear (reverence) of Him. You can bet Paul was referencing those scriptures and that any model of submission and authority between people should reflect that fact.

Matthew 16:6 warns people to beware of false teachers and their bad ideas which will change the way you look at God's truth.

This movement encourages people to embrace false teachers by suggesting we should "Eat the meat and spit out the bone."

Jesus used the metaphor of leaven when warning against such teachers because their bad ideas will permeate the rest of their teachings. You cannot eat around the leaven in a slice of bread, you will end up eating the leaven. We should just stay away from such teachers completely.

Matthew 16:39 warns that it's wicked and adulterous to seek after a sign.

This movement, of course, is all about seeking after signs and wonders.

Matthew 7:22 says some interesting things. Jesus said, "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

This is very interesting knowing what these ministries are like. First, they prided themselves in their prophetic ministry. Next, it's clear they liked to push deliverance ministry upon people. Finally, Jesus says these people will declare how miraculous and supernatural their ministries were. All of it done in the name of Jesus. Sound familiar?

Jesus' response to such people should make the participants of the New Apostolic Reformation shudder:

"I never knew you. Away from Me, you evildoers!"

 

[ToBeLoved]

But it does have a structure, it's just it's only really recognized by those within the movement:

The structure is way deeper than this. Throw in the World Prayer Center, Elijah's List, Rick Joyner, Dominion Theology/Kingdom Now, New Life Church, Ted Haggard and the National Association for Evangelicals.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The structure is way deeper than this. Throw in the World Prayer Center, Elijah's List, Rick Joyner, Dominion Theology/Kingdom Now, New Life Church, Ted Haggard and the National Association for Evangelicals.

And you are concerned with a literal obedience to Moses' law and with church dominion in government?

 

[StanJ]

Looking at the New Apostolic Reformation, or NAR, when and how did it go wrong? Can you list faults and false teachers? Can it come good? What damage does it do? What good things remain in it?
So I am asking the critics and adherents.

It would take far too long to list where and how this movement has gone wrong but in my opinion it was never anything of God in the first place. Any movement that counts among its members Todd Bentley, is dead before it starts. Firstly there is no New Apostolic age. The last Apostolic age died out when John the Apostle died after writing Revelation. Revelation is the last Revelation the church ever received and it was the last Revelation that Jesus Christ ever gave. It depicts what will happen with the church and tribulation and closes up with Jesus' Millennial reign and the establishment of the new Heaven and new earth and New Jerusalem. There is no new revelation after that because the Book of Revelation contains all the body of Christ needs to know. I have been a Pentecostal believe her for over 45 years and I am increasingly annoyed and perturbed by all the false teachers that our faith continues to attract.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/newapostolic.html

 

[Biblicist]

It would take far too long to list where and how this movement has gone wrong but in my opinion it was never anything of God in the first place. Any movement that counts among its members Todd Bentley, is dead before it starts. Firstly there is no New Apostolic age. The last Apostolic age died out when John the Apostle died after writing Revelation. Revelation is the last Revelation the church ever received and it was the last Revelation that Jesus Christ ever gave. It depicts what will happen with the church and tribulation and closes up with Jesus' Millennial reign and the establishment of the new Heaven and new earth and New Jerusalem. There is no new revelation after that because the Book of Revelation contains all the body of Christ needs to know. I have been a Pentecostal believe her for over 45 years and I am increasingly annoyed and perturbed by all the false teachers that our faith continues to attract.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/newapostolic.html

That was a well thought out post but I would have to add in at least one qualification, in that the Father still speaks to the Church and to his children today through prayer and through the Holy Spirit in prophecy. This does not mean that anything can be added to or taken away from the Scriptures which is something that the various NARzie celebrities have a habit of doing.

 

[Biblicist]

. . . . . . .

Leaders Commission Todd Bentley
1:56AM EDT 6/24/2008 Charisma
The special service was billed by leaders as one of the greatest moments in revival history

[06.24.08] . . . . .

Wagner said to Bentley on the platform: “This commissioning represents a powerful spiritual transaction taking place in the invisible world. With this in mind, I take the apostolic authority that God has given me and I decree to Todd Bentley, your power will increase, your authority will increase, your favor will increase, your influence will increase, your revelation will increase.

“I also decree that a new supernatural strength will flow through this ministry. A new life force will penetrate this move of God. Government will be established to set things in their proper order. God will pour out a higher level of discernment to distinguish truth from error. New relationships will surface to open the gates to the future.”

As Wagner and his cohorts represented the pinnacle of the NARzie celebrity scene, his words are why any prudent Believer who is involved (even if unwittingly so) with their antics, should see this as enough reason for them to move to better pastures.

Edit: Typo

 

[geetrue]

As Wagner and his cohorts represented the pinnacle of the NARzie celebrity scene, hiw words are why any prudent Believer who is involved (even if unwittingly so) with their antics, should see this as enough reason for them to move to better pastures.

I saw that show live via God TV (remember that now long gone channel) I was feeling some kind of spiritual high every night from April till July when I finally saw through the whole sham. Todd Bentley couldn't prove to ABC nightline that at least 15 people had been healed of anything. He gave them three people and all they could say was that they felt better.

In hindsight I could see them with no fruit ... so where did the tingles come from? Where did the counterfeit anointing come from?

From my own desire for this to be a major move of God on the earth?

I am a better person now ... thank you Todd for the mistakes you made and I made will keep me out of the reaches of other devil's disciples sent to mis-represent our Lord Jesus.

We all should realize that surely these lessons learned are for the chosen ... NAR is a trap for the unsaved.
If we judge them we sin ... there is only one judge and one law maker leaves discern and learn.