Discussion NAR when did it go wrong, what faults can you list?

GoldenKingGaze

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Looking at the New Apostolic Reformation, or NAR, when and how did it go wrong? Can you list faults and false teachers? Can it come good? What damage does it do? What good things remain in it?

So I am asking the critics and adherents.
 

Biblicist

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Why do Spirit Filled, Born Again Christians focus on the bad of people and organizations? Is there a command somewhere to be a fault finder?
When we consider that the NARzie movement has probably undoubtedly become a cancer within the Body of Christ then people definitely need to be educated with this movement so that they can make their own judgment calls.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Global Awakening holds yearly Voice of the Apostles and Voice of the Prophets conferences, and I like them. Ps Randy is head, and I wonder what faults people find with him.

15 years ago, Benny Hinn and Randy Clark were friends and in the blessings of God, but they disagree now, on Todd Bentley last I heard.
 
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AGTG

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Are you suggesting that the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) does not exist!!

There is no formal organization known as "NAR," though people seem to speak as such. It seems misleading to me to propose there is, when, in fact, there is no formal organization with such a title. Especially since the acronym was taken from a single quote from a single person.
 
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AGTG

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Global Awakening holds yearly Voice of the Apostles and Voice of the Prophets conferences, and I like them. Ps Randy is head, and I wonder what faults people find with him.

15 years ago, Benny Hinn and Randy Clark were friends and in the blessings of God, but they disagree now, on Todd Bentley last I heard.

If the contention is a theological one related to whether or not the fivefold giftings from Jesus as He ascended are still functioning, it would serve those who oppose the belief to simply state their contention rather than using a nebulous, blanket title of "NAR" to label a group of people who may or may not even be connected.

My point being it does a disservice to the Body of Christ as a whole when people are filled with fear of listening to, reading from, or considering teachings from a person because they've been stamped with a blanket negative label over a point of theology that is not related to salvation.
 
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AGTG

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I will give you a perfect example: 7 years ago, I came to a saving knowledge of God (brokeness, repentance, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost). Having faced great spiritual battles in my workplace for years, I found myself struggling in my battle against the enemy despite my new-found faith in God's mercy and grace.

Someone shared a teaching from a guy by the name of Graham Cooke. The video spoke so directly to my situation, and was so loaded with supernatural power to encourage and build me up to face such mountainous battles, I was strengthened to persevere and overcome (which I did, by God's grace because Jesus used Cooke to share that teaching).

Not long after watching the teaching, a handful of people came into the thread to discredit Mr. Cooke and cast fear upon anyone who would consider sitting under such teachings as deceived and thereby a spiritual pariah who should likewise be scrutinized with such disdain.

Because I trusted the people who cast these nebulous fears based upon unfounded, second-hand testimony related to loose affiliations Graham Cooke had with others in the Body of Christ, I rejected Graham Cooke and the rest of his teachings out of hand.

Years later, when I became much stronger in the Lord, and had developed a deep, daily intimacy with Jesus, He showed me those people were wrong, and to look back into some of the teachings Mr. Cooke has to help me understand Father God's heart for me and my ministry calling.

Does that mean I agree with everything Graham Cooke believes or teaches? No! Frankly, I have yet to encounter any preacher or teacher that I agree with every point of "their" theology. Why would I? May God be true, and every man proven to be a liar!

Just the same, God has indeed appointed people to teach on His truths, and He does so despite man, not because of man.

I regret rejecting those teachings, as it hindered God's plan of growth for me. Moreover, because our time on earth is finite, that means missing those teachings those years meant missing God's will in my ministry in some measure, too, and isn't that a shame?

When people use blanket terms over others in the Body of Christ that they disagree with on points not related to salvation, they are encouraging unfounded fear to grip their hearts. I mean, if you're going to swath a portion of the Body with such a title, you had better have a solid reason with first-hand experience and recognize your experience may not be generalized beyond the church/ministry you dealt with.

When it's all said and done, the charismatic/pentecostal church in America does indeed have some problems. They won't be solved by marginalizing members of the Body of Christ based upon blanket labels to fill newborns in Christ with fear of approaching a person's teachings or ministry work.

In short, if you're reading this thread and are unsure about what this is all about, don't worry too much about what's said on the internet. Draw near to Jesus in deep intimacy, as His Word promises that the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. And if He will guide us into all truth, surely He will show us what does not line up with His truth.

As much as I used to hate the saying, because the purity of God is such a beautiful thing, Christians should indeed "eat the meat and spit out the bones" when it comes to teachings they find because no man is pure. It's God's mercy and grace that bring forth this partnership on earth between Him and mankind, not man's ability to be righteous or right. And for that, we should all be thankful for.
 
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Biblicist

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There is no formal organization known as "NAR," though people seem to speak as such. It seems misleading to me to propose there is, when, in fact, there is no formal organization with such a title. Especially since the acronym was taken from a single quote from a single person.
To argue that the New Apostolic Reformation does not exist would be the same as saying that there are no formal organisations for those who are Arminian or Reformed but we all realise that both of these theological constructs are well established within the worldwide Church. For that matter, it could be argued that there is no Pentecostal organisation but there are of course many denominations that are Pentecostal or who may even include 'Pentecostal' as a part of their name.

As for the godfather of the NARzie movement, which is only a rehash of the older Latter-Rain movement, this would undoubtedly be Peter C. Wagner who himself coined the term the New Apostolic Reformation which has been widely embraced by numerous Pentecostal and charismatic leaders. It does seem that you need to do a bit more reading up on the subject as the principles of the NARzie mindset are found everywhere where the following link to a CharismaNews article might be a good start.
 
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Biblicist

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If the contention is a theological one related to whether or not the fivefold giftings from Jesus as He ascended are still functioning, it would serve those who oppose the belief to simply state their contention rather than using a nebulous, blanket title of "NAR" to label a group of people who may or may not even be connected.
No Pentecostal who is worth his salt would dare minimise the importance of the five roles mentioned in Eph 4:11 but the way in which NARzie ideology has twisted Eph 4:11 to suit their agenda is nothing less than horrendous. It should be pointed out that NARzie ideology is not about restoring the Five roles but more with that of the apostle and prophet; in reality the prophet is miniminsed where the sole objective is to try and establish the apostle as being the kingpin. It should be pointed out that the NARzie celebrities are not trying to establish themselves as apostles but as Apostles-of-Christ where they see themselves as being on the same level of the Twelve and with Paul.
 
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jiminpa

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I find no fault in the vast majority of those who are often being slandered by the likes of johnymac under the label of NAR, so they have only gone wrong in the sense that they are offending pseudo-Christian unbelievers, but that is not really wrong. Personally, I think that the way they are being lied about by so many false Christians is a testament to their loyalty to the Truth.

This subject was already argued to death once here, and the only criticism was that too many respected, but not Biblical, leaders have issues with them. Leaders whose own doctrines are explicitly opposed to scripture don't like those associated with the NAR.
 
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jiminpa

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NAR is a blanket term that is being thrown at organizations like Mike Bickle's IHOP, Bethel Church in Reading CA, but also Todd Bentley and anyone else that can be lumped in to make the rest of them seem out of bounds. The normal criticisms range from those in the movement following what the Bible actually says too much, to who can remotely be associated with them, (Bentley), to how many marginal and fake Christians don't like them.
 
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AGTG

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No Pentecostal who is worth his salt would dare minimise the importance of the five roles mentioned in Eph 4:11 but the way in which NARzie ideology has twisted Eph 4:11 to suit their agenda is nothing less than horrendous. It should be pointed out that NARzie ideology is not about restoring the Five roles but more with that of the apostle and prophet; in reality the prophet is miniminsed where the sole objective is to try and establish the apostle as being the kingpin. It should be pointed out that the NARzie celebrities are not trying to establish themselves as apostles but as Apostles-of-Christ where they see themselves as being on the same level of the Twelve and with Paul.

Well I would say this: God knows how to handle His people when they get out of bounds. I won't go into details, but I've seen leadership that lost the plot, so to speak, get righted by the divine intervention of God. It wasn't pretty, but better to be corrected than adrift rudderless.

The fivefold ministry, as far as I can tell, should be a team that reflects facets of Jesus' ministry on earth where people functioning in one role or another defer to one another out of reverence to Christ as the Book of Acts clearly shows they did in the 1st century.

Also, to suggest the 1st century apostles were special men is not Biblical. The Book of Hebrews calls the prophet Elijah "a man with a nature like our own." The Biblical standard is for God to take unremarkable men and do extraordinary things through them.
 
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Biblicist

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Also, to suggest the 1st century apostles were special men is not Biblical. The Book of Hebrews calls the prophet Elijah "a man with a nature like our own." The Biblical standard is for God to take unremarkable men and do extraordinary things through them.
Whoah!!! Where in the world are coming from with this . . . no offence, but your remarks are nothing less than . . . I don't know what I can say . . . you really need to go back and read through your Bible . . . I'm absolutely stunned!!
 
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CGL1023

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I searched for NAR on the internet and I am surprised by the volume of material available but even moreso the influence the movement purportedly has. Below is an clip lifted from a website. This topic suddenly has my curiosity and I will attempt to get current on the subject.

"But NAR leaders teach that God began restoring the office of prophet to the church in the 1980s and the office of apostle in the 1990s. C. Peter Wagner — one of the movement’s most influential U.S. apostles — teaches that 2001 A.D. marked the beginning of the “Second Apostolic Age,” when the proper church government — headed by living apostles and prophets — was finally restored." http://www.apologeticsindex.org/2977-new-apostolic-reformation-overview
 
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