My Two Cents on the Necessity of God

[TimPetrosian]

I believe God only exists out of mankind's necessity for an entity such as God.

People want to live forever, so Christianity gives them eternal life in Heaven.
People want revenge, so Christianity gives them "divine retribution." No one wants to feel victimized while totally helpless.
People want security, so Christianity gives them a god that watches over them constantly.
People want to feel like they aren't wasting their time in a religion; they want to feel useful, and to feel that their efforts toward the religion aren't wasted. So, Christianity gives them the sense that they are a part of "God's plan".
People don't want to be plagued by doubt that they are wrong in this belief, so they create an infallible god, one that wields infinite power.
People don't want to watch over would-be criminals and prevent people from questioning their theology constantly, so they create a hell, to prevent the faithful from even thinking of commiting a crime. Or thinking at all.
People want to believe that their good deeds won't go unrewarded, so Christianity gives them a reward in heaven.
People want money, so Christianity sets up offerings to God; essentially collections of money sans the added question of where the money is going. Undoubtably, it will be used for "God's plan."
People want others to follow these imposed rules created by Christianity, so Christianity sets up eternal punishment for those who don't believe; something too horrible to risk nonbelief against.
Each of these things caters to a specific group. When combined, it would seem that there is hardly a group of people left that wouldn't want the security and community provided by the Christian church. After all, no one wants to be robbed as they roam the streets, or to be helpless within the enormity of the world and the universe with no one else to guide them in their troubles.

Which brings me to this point: It is convenient to believe in God. It is an easier alternative than having to deal with rotting in the ground after you take that fateful last breath. However, Christianity robs people of potentially life-saving techniques and forces people to live a life with children for whom they had no desire to have, on the basis of a constantly warping theology that can be interpreted a million different ways. I doubt Christians from two thousand, one thousand, or five hundred years in the past believed in a religion even remotely resembling the Christianity of today. The Church has been proven fallible in the past; once, clergymen sold absolution for money, a practice that would be looked upon as despicable in retrospect. Christianity's stubborn unwillingness to change now may be looked upon as being in the same vein.

I am not a proponent of another religion. I aim not to support a scientific theory, which are equally fallible as any religion. I am simply a skeptic, and the ideals behind Christianity, to me, seem highly suspect, catering to the individual rather than stemming from some kind of divine inspiration. I'm not here to convert anyone toward my beliefs.

 

[The Nihilist]

Pentecostal, huh?

 

[Bushido216]

This is new, original and very relevant.

 

[flatworm]

People want to live forever, so Christianity gives them eternal life in Heaven.
People want revenge, so Christianity gives them "divine retribution." No one wants to feel victimized while totally helpless.
People want security, so Christianity gives them a god that watches over them constantly.
People want to feel like they aren't wasting their time in a religion; they want to feel useful, and to feel that their efforts toward the religion aren't wasted. So, Christianity gives them the sense that they are a part of "God's plan".
People don't want to be plagued by doubt that they are wrong in this belief, so they create an infallible god, one that wields infinite power.
People don't want to watch over would-be criminals and prevent people from questioning their theology constantly, so they create a hell, to prevent the faithful from even thinking of commiting a crime. Or thinking at all.
People want to believe that their good deeds won't go unrewarded, so Christianity gives them a reward in heaven.
People want money, so Christianity sets up offerings to God; essentially collections of money sans the added question of where the money is going. Undoubtably, it will be used for "God's plan."
People want others to follow these imposed rules created by Christianity, so Christianity sets up eternal punishment for those who don't believe; something too horrible to risk nonbelief against.

I might point out that Christianity is not unique in this. Many of the same reasons apply for why humans at various points in various cultures have believed in any number of gods, evil spirits, tree spirits, wind spirits, ancestor ghosts, etc.

I sometimes wonder whether monotheism didn't gain its popularity for the purpose of war. After all, if you believe in many gods, particularly if every city-state has its patron god, then you have to worry about your enemy's god beating your own. Surely, the priests will have told you theirs is no match, but you could still have doubts. Monotheism eliminates that little problem- there is only one God, all-powerful and all-knowing- and he is on your side.

Is there an anthropologist in the house?

 

[TimPetrosian]

Pentecostal, huh?

Kinda clicked through the registration process there.

As for flatworm's post, that sounds like a plausible development for monotheism; unification under a common lord. It certainly makes it easier to fight for a common cause. I also believe that favor toward a few gods and less interest in other minor or unnecessary ones, combined with the combination of multiple gods over time into one and/or the extension of power or abilities of a pre-existing god, had something to do with it.

 

[RevCowboy]

I believe God only exists out of mankind's necessity for an entity such as God.

Howdy Tim, welcome!

These are fantastic points you make and should be addressed. Perhaps, if I could make some distinctions between what people want and what Christianity actually teaches.

People want to live forever, so Christianity gives them eternal life in Heaven.

Indeed. Christians do talk about eternal life, however, I know there are many Christians who would still be Christians without this promise, including me. Sadly, many more would jump ship quite quickly.

People want revenge, so Christianity gives them "divine retribution." No one wants to feel victimized while totally helpless.

You don't have to look much farther than Dubya (am I allowed to call him that as a Canadian?) for this belief. However, I would strongly argue that Christianity does not offer this but quite the opposite. Turn the other cheek so to speak.

People want security, so Christianity gives them a god that watches over them constantly.

Again turn on any Televangelist and you too can buy a green prayer cloth that will do just as you have suggested. However, again the Bible actually says that the cost of discipleship will be persecution and rejection (and I am no talking about "evolutionists" persecuting "creationists" but actual persecution)

People want to feel like they aren't wasting their time in a religion; they want to feel useful, and to feel that their efforts toward the religion aren't wasted. So, Christianity gives them the sense that they are a part of "God's plan".

Indeed the search for meaning is integral to Christians. However, I am often frustrated by how often "God"s plan" is bandied about and applied inappropriately. I sincerely doubt that God planned for the US to attack Iraq and much as God planned a parking spot for me this morning. God's plan is often used as justification for doing ungodly things. I think that God's actual plan is no more complicated than loving your neighbour.

People don't want to be plagued by doubt that they are wrong in this belief, so they create an infallible god, one that wields infinite power.

True again, however, I think questioning belief should be a daily exercise. The Bible does not say that faith is lisence to turn your brain off.

People don't want to watch over would-be criminals and prevent people from questioning their theology constantly, so they create a hell, to prevent the faithful from even thinking of commiting a crime. Or thinking at all.

Hell is actually not biblical or Christian, rather it was mostly invented by John Milton.

People want to believe that their good deeds won't go unrewarded, so Christianity gives them a reward in heaven.

Actually, Christianity is based on the belief that no one can get themselves into heaven, rather this is up to the mercy of God

People want money, so Christianity sets up offerings to God; essentially collections of money sans the added question of where the money is going. Undoubtably, it will be used for "God's plan."

This was actually the point that made me want to respond to this post in the first place. While there are preachers and churches that have shady money dealings, the vast majority report every cent to the government just like everyone else. Most money that given goes toward NGOs doing aid work around the world (not missionaries, but actual aid workers). The rest is given to clergy to live on, which for most pastors is not a lot. I will probably make the least of all professions that require a professional or masters degree.

And yes clergy do get a break on taxes for their housing. However, it is not truly a break for us, but for the congregation. Since the congregation only pays us enough to get by on, the housing allowance lets congregations give less. If there wasn't a housing allowance, congregations would have to make up the difference in taxes.

People want others to follow these imposed rules created by Christianity, so Christianity sets up eternal punishment for those who don't believe; something too horrible to risk nonbelief against.

While there are Christians who proclaim this, it is not true. The Bible only promises salvation, it does not promise hell to unbelievers.

Each of these things caters to a specific group. When combined, it would seem that there is hardly a group of people left that wouldn't want the security and community provided by the Christian church. After all, no one wants to be robbed as they roam the streets, or to be helpless within the enormity of the world and the universe with no one else to guide them in their troubles.

I am wonder what you mean by this. Do you live in place where Christians have more security than others? If so, I am truly interested to hear more!

Which brings me to this point: It is convenient to believe in God. It is an easier alternative than having to deal with rotting in the ground after you take that fateful last breath.

I don't know how many funerals you have been to lately, but I attend more than the average person. And it is not easy dealing with death as a believer or non-believer.

However, Christianity robs people of potentially life-saving techniques and forces people to live a life with children for whom they had no desire to have, on the basis of a constantly warping theology that can be interpreted a million different ways.

I agree completely! If the Pope would tell Africans to use condoms, it could be an immediate curb to the Aids crisis. This myopic view almost makes we weep... I would shake the Pope if I saw him today!

I doubt Christians from two thousand, one thousand, or five hundred years in the past believed in a religion even remotely resembling the Christianity of today. The Church has been proven fallible in the past; once, clergymen sold absolution for money, a practice that would be looked upon as despicable in retrospect. Christianity's stubborn unwillingness to change now may be looked upon as being in the same vein.

While its true Evangelical Christianity does not look like any form of past Christianity, mainline denominations are remarkably similar. The fact that I am a man who wears a long white dress each Sunday morning that is based on the garments worn in Rome in the 1st century should be enough reason to believe that we have been somewhat consistant But seriously, Christianity in its doctrines and tradition has remained quite consistent while hopefully reforming those doctrines and practices that were not helpful, such as the selling of indulgences.

I am not a proponent of another religion. I aim not to support a scientific theory, which are equally fallible as any religion. I am simply a skeptic, and the ideals behind Christianity, to me, seem highly suspect, catering to the individual rather than stemming from some kind of divine inspiration. I'm not here to convert anyone toward my beliefs.

I am not trying to convert you either, just simply trying to respond and hopefully share, perhaps, a different perspective.

Pax Vobiscum

 

[TimPetrosian]

Granted, I may have been a bit quick to jump to generalizations about the entirety of the Christian faith based on a bunch of examples. I may also have been frustrated by these arguments failing against a few Christians I met before because they had license to refute every claim plainly based on "because God said so." I can't take that as an excuse for poor arguments, and I definitely can't take that as an excuse not to answer my points. So thanks for that.

What I meant by the "security presented by Christianity" is the fact that Christianity provides mental security, a feeling that someone will always be there to protect you. What if, let's say, that isn't true, and someone loses faith in God? The person would totally lose the safety and solace in God that had protected him for so long against the harsh reality of being alone. This, of course, is no problem per se, but coupled with the other reasons why I am skeptic about Christianity, it poses a more significant problem. Which leads me to think that Christianity intended this, that no one can easily leave it behind without suffering some kind of damage.

I find the ideal of "hell" unjust, because I cannot believe an omnibenevolent God can damn everyone preliminarily, regardless of their actions, based on their lack of faith. And hell is mentioned a few times in the Bible, as a place where "the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched". Maybe this isn't a direct reference to hell; however, there is an analogue between sinners being thrown into punishment while believers receive a reward. The severity of the punishment can be put to debate, of course. Many people don't know that there can be a debate on the existence of hell and take it at face value, thus creating a powerful incentive to do everything for God in a desperate attempt to avoid an untimely fate, and I believe that Christian teachings, or some of it, has to do with this widespread belief.

 

[Risu]

As I have heard before from my father*, "Organized religion is a crutch for those who need it to function." In other words, religion gives a sense of security for those who cannot live comfortably without having some idea of how the universe works; something simple and soothing with a happy ending.

*(I cannot give this quote a proper source, because the name of the man who originally said it escapes me; if someone could provide it I'd be grateful. I believe he was a governor of a US state (maybe Montana?) as well as a wrestler at some point.)

 

[RevCowboy]

Granted, I may have been a bit quick to jump to generalizations about the entirety of the Christian faith based on a bunch of examples. I may also have been frustrated by these arguments failing against a few Christians I met before because they had license to refute every claim plainly based on "because God said so." I can't take that as an excuse for poor arguments, and I definitely can't take that as an excuse not to answer my points. So thanks for that.

No problem. I find those Christians frustrating as well, I can't stand them.

What I meant by the "security presented by Christianity" is the fact that Christianity provides mental security, a feeling that someone will always be there to protect you. What if, let's say, that isn't true, and someone loses faith in God? The person would totally lose the safety and solace in God that had protected him for so long against the harsh reality of being alone. This, of course, is no problem per se, but coupled with the other reasons why I am skeptic about Christianity, it poses a more significant problem. Which leads me to think that Christianity intended this, that no one can easily leave it behind without suffering some kind of damage.

I am not totally sure of what you are getting, but I will try to respond.

Well, I think the only answer that I could give to this would be a faith one... and that is even if we lose faith, God promises not to leave us.

That probably sounds unsatisfactory, but I don't know exactly what you mean.

I find the ideal of "hell" unjust, because I cannot believe an omnibenevolent God can damn everyone preliminarily, regardless of their actions, based on their lack of faith. And hell is mentioned a few times in the Bible, as a place where "the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched". Maybe this isn't a direct reference to hell; however, there is an analogue between sinners being thrown into punishment while believers receive a reward. The severity of the punishment can be put to debate, of course. Many people don't know that there can be a debate on the existence of hell and take it at face value, thus creating a powerful incentive to do everything for God in a desperate attempt to avoid an untimely fate, and I believe that Christian teachings, or some of it, has to do with this widespread belief.

Hell has translated from the Greek word Gehenna in the New Testament.

γέεννα : Gehenna, the valley of Hinnom (the name of a ravine south of Jerusalem where in the OT children were burned in cult worship)

Like I said before, Hell is actually myth of Medieval society meant to frighten people. Our English language understanding is primarily based on John Milton's Paradise Lost. In fact it was even added to the Apostle's Creed when it was not originally there. And hell does not appear in the Nicene Creed, which is the document that outlines orthodox Christian doctrine.

Actually, Martin Luther had exactly the same problem that you have. He couldn't believe that that God would damn people to hell. What he discovered was that this notion of Hell was being used by a corrupt Papacy to get the poor to purchase indulgences (get out hell free card) which was funding the construction of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. Luther found instead in the New Testament that God is merciful and loving, not a a wrathful judge waiting for us to screw up.

Now this doesn't mean that this bad theology isn't still around today. I wish we could have gotten over it by now, but as most fundies seem to show, it is convenient to hold on to a bad theology like hell than to actually read the bible and discover what it says.

 

[AV1611VET]

I believe God only exists out of mankind's necessity for an entity such as God.

Tim, just out of curiosity, and way off the record, but are you by chance related to Tigran Petrosian?

 

[Bushido216]

Kinda clicked through the registration process there.

I sense a spy.

 

[futzman]

I believe God only exists out of mankind's necessity for an entity such as God.

People want to live forever, so Christianity gives them eternal life in Heaven.

Indeed. I've often challenged people to consider this -- if you knew you were immortal would you still need god? I think if you're honest the answer is "no".

 

[consol]

I believe God only exists out of mankind's necessity for an entity such as God.

People want to live forever, so Christianity gives them eternal life in Heaven.
People want revenge, so Christianity gives them "divine retribution." No one wants to feel victimized while totally helpless.
People want security, so Christianity gives them a god that watches over them constantly.
People want to feel like they aren't wasting their time in a religion; they want to feel useful, and to feel that their efforts toward the religion aren't wasted. So, Christianity gives them the sense that they are a part of "God's plan".
People don't want to be plagued by doubt that they are wrong in this belief, so they create an infallible god, one that wields infinite power.
People don't want to watch over would-be criminals and prevent people from questioning their theology constantly, so they create a hell, to prevent the faithful from even thinking of commiting a crime. Or thinking at all.
People want to believe that their good deeds won't go unrewarded, so Christianity gives them a reward in heaven.
People want money, so Christianity sets up offerings to God; essentially collections of money sans the added question of where the money is going. Undoubtably, it will be used for "God's plan."
People want others to follow these imposed rules created by Christianity, so Christianity sets up eternal punishment for those who don't believe; something too horrible to risk nonbelief against.
Each of these things caters to a specific group. When combined, it would seem that there is hardly a group of people left that wouldn't want the security and community provided by the Christian church. After all, no one wants to be robbed as they roam the streets, or to be helpless within the enormity of the world and the universe with no one else to guide them in their troubles.

Which brings me to this point: It is convenient to believe in God. It is an easier alternative than having to deal with rotting in the ground after you take that fateful last breath. However, Christianity robs people of potentially life-saving techniques and forces people to live a life with children for whom they had no desire to have, on the basis of a constantly warping theology that can be interpreted a million different ways. I doubt Christians from two thousand, one thousand, or five hundred years in the past believed in a religion even remotely resembling the Christianity of today. The Church has been proven fallible in the past; once, clergymen sold absolution for money, a practice that would be looked upon as despicable in retrospect. Christianity's stubborn unwillingness to change now may be looked upon as being in the same vein.

This has been told to creationists from the beginning, what you and many others fail to realize is,
while it may be true for some, they think it does not apply to them, just as they have not been indoctrinated,
not one of the creationists on this forum will admit they have the same religion as their parents,
they were definitely not influenced by their parents, they found their God and their religion all on their own,
some even say that had they been brought up to be Muslims, they would still have found their way to Christianity,
nothing anyone can say will get through to them, nothing.

If they start reading something that looks as if it goes against what they believe, they stop reading,
they work on the principle, what they don't know won't hurt them, if they only read how good creationism is,
that's all they know, yes it's sad, but they like it, and if they only hurt themselves no one would mind,
but they are out to convert as many others as they can, I think creationism should be reclassified as a contagious disease.

 

[AV1611VET]

...I think creationism should be reclassified as a contagious disease.

And then what?

Quarantine us at Dachau until a final solution can be mustard? (I mean ... "mustered")

 

[consol]

And then what?

Quarantine us at Dachau until a final solution can be mustard? (I mean ... "mustered")

No, just stay away from them, as you would stay away from anyone with a contagious disease.

 

[Gracchus]

And then what?

Quarantine us at Dachau until a final solution can be mustard? (I mean ... "mustered")

Actually, creationism is only a symptom. The disease is religious faith, believing contradictory nonsense. It is not required of us.

NRS Micah 6:8 "He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?"

Oops! Sorry, AV1611VET, I wasn't trying to lead you into heresy. Just for you:

KJV Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

We are not required to slaughter animals, pay priests or preachers, or profess beliefs that outrage reason. Nor should anyone need the input of bronze-age goat herders to figure out the decent thing to do. Even monkeys understand fairness.

 

[AV1611VET]

We are not required to slaughter animals...

Get the door --- it's PETA. I would surmise that atheists kill more animals today than any "bronze-age goat herder" ever did --- and do it as a requirement.

 

[AV1611VET]

No, just stay away from them, as you would stay away from anyone with a contagious disease.

What's the cure for them then?

 

[One name]

Timothy 4New International Version (NIV)
4 The Spirit clearly says that in later timessome will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales;rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[AV1611VET]

Timothy 4New International Version (NIV)

Well, I asked ... didn't I?