My faith is draining away (moved)

Thewonderer

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Hi

I am a new member and have a couple of questions (open to anybody)

I was raised Christian in the Uk, My mother and father were both Christian but did not fully explain the religion they basically forced on me.

I did all the Sunday school thing up until the age of about nine or ten,
and attended church regularly with them.

Over the years my faith has been chipped away by my own thoughts,
I question the morality in the bible and question whether children should be exposed to the sometimes gruesome stories in it.

So my first question would be, Is it ethical to indoctrinate young people into any religion?
And my second is, What does the bible teach us about morals and ethics?
 

PapaZoom

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Indoctrination is a loaded word. Training is more accurate. If I believe God to be real and the author of the brutally honest Bible, teaching my children the truth of God's word is not indoctrination. Training is a better term.

If the Bible is true and you neglect to teach this truth to your children, that amounts to child neglect. So the argument works both ways.

People need to make up their own minds about these things. If you think it indoctrination, fine. But that doesn't make it so.

Here's a Bible I would recommend for children (and adults as there is an adult version). You can view it on Amazon and decide for yourself if it's worth a peek.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hi

I am a new member and have a couple of questions (open to anybody)

I was raised Christian in the Uk, My mother and father were both Christian but did not fully explain the religion they basically forced on me.

I did all the Sunday school thing up until the age of about nine or ten,
and attended church regularly with them.

Over the years my faith has been chipped away by my own thoughts,
I question the morality in the bible and question whether children should be exposed to the sometimes gruesome stories in it.

So my first question would be, Is it ethical to indoctrinate young people into any religion?
And my second is, What does the bible teach us about morals and ethics?


Answer 1) Sure, it's very ethical--which is why I do it almost every day. Not only that, but I've been leading my family through the book of Deuteronomy ... there's some great eye-brow raisers in there by which to stir up conversation. ;)

Answer 2) It teaches us to love God and other people through acts of service and compassion; it also teaches us to overcome evil by leading good and holy lives.

:cool:

2PhiloVoid
 
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farout

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Hi

I am a new member and have a couple of questions (open to anybody)

I was raised Christian in the Uk, My mother and father were both Christian but did not fully explain the religion they basically forced on me.

I did all the Sunday school thing up until the age of about nine or ten,
and attended church regularly with them.

Over the years my faith has been chipped away by my own thoughts,
I question the morality in the bible and question whether children should be exposed to the sometimes gruesome stories in it.

So my first question would be, Is it ethical to indoctrinate young people into any religion?
And my second is, What does the bible teach us about morals and ethics?


By doing nothing you are indeed giving them a religion Agnostic. It's really sad your were not trained in Christianity. The key is trained, and explained about Jesus Christ. You have suffered not knowing about faith. Faith development is as important as your education and or personality development, it's all about the formation of you becoming who you are. You are missing the training of your soul and mind. I am really sad that you missed so much.

Do you think you really want to take the journey to know about a part of you that you know so little about? Discovering Jesus Christ, the SON, the Father and the Holy Spirit is so awesome. When you close your eyes and think that is who your are your a soul that has a body. When you die your soul moves your body dies. Hebrews 9:29 after death comes judgement. You will be asked something like this "why should I allow you in my presents?" Depending on your answer as you have lived life, will determine where you will reside for ever and ever without end. Unless you have been a FOLLOWER, a genuine Born again, Saved, Believer trusting in Jesus Christ, that is if you rejected Jesus Christ and His offer to save you from punishment for your sinful life on Earth, that rejection God will grant your desire to be away from Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. You will spend forever in a place away from God. In a place he has made for those who want no part of Him. that place is called hell, torment, seclusion, and great pain beyond description. The place for those who accept Jesus Christ payment for their sins, and so appreciate the Love extended by Jesus to pay such a terrible price for our redemption, we willingly become FOLLOWERS of Him and His commands on how we are to live, because He loved us first, we now Love Him. This is the very basic of becoming a Christ like person a Christian.

I hope I have given you some serious things to think about. Merry Christmas.
 
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MorkandMindy

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By doing nothing you are indeed giving them a religion Agnostic. It's really sad your were not trained in Christianity. The key is trained, and explained about Jesus Christ. You have suffered not knowing about faith. Faith development is as important as your education and or personality development, it's all about the formation of you becoming who you are. You are missing the training of your soul and mind. I am really sad that you missed so much.


Most important is to read the Bible, and these are core truths so many just plain miss:

Gen 7 21 Every creature took its last breath: the things crawling on the ground, birds, livestock, wild animals, everything swarming on the ground, and every human being. 22 Everything on dry land with life’s breath in its nostrils died. 23 God wiped away every living thing that was on the fertile land—from human beings to livestock to crawling things to birds in the sky. They were wiped off the earth. Only Noah and those with him in the ark were left. 24 The waters rose over the earth for one hundred fifty days.

Exodus 12
29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

Josh 6 21 (Jericho)
And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

Josh 10
8 And the Lord said unto Joshua, Fear them not: for I have delivered them into thine hand; there shall not a man of them stand before thee.

9 Joshua therefore came unto them suddenly, and went up from Gilgal all night.

10 And the Lord discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.

11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the Lord cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.


It is important to read what is there and not just think of Christianity as another form of Humanism.
 
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Albion

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So my first question would be, Is it ethical to indoctrinate young people into any religion?
If we were to consider that wrong, we'd also have to ask if it's wrong to "indoctrinate" our children into all the proper social etiquette that we do and consider important to do--table manners, "thank you" and "please," what to wear when in public, how do deal with bullies, what attitude to bring to your schooling, and so on. We'd logically have to just let them grow up as though they'd been raised by wolves. ;) So, no, we have an obligation to instill in them all that we consider important for them to know.

And of course it's the case that teaching them nothing about religion amounts to teaching them agnosticism or atheism, and I see nothing that's more moral -- or impartial -- about that. It's certainly to indoctrinate them into a certain mindset.

And my second is, What does the bible teach us about morals and ethics?
Plenty. But I don't think that subject can be covered adequately in a discussion board post.
 
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Thewonderer

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If we were to consider that wrong, we'd also have to ask if it's wrong to "indoctrinate" our children into all the proper social etiquette that we do and consider important to do--table manners, "thank you" and "please," what to wear when in public, how do deal with bullies, what attitude to bring to your schooling, and so on. We'd logically have to just let them grow up as though they'd been raised by wolves. ;) So, no, we have an obligation to instill in them all that we consider important for them to know.

And of course it's the case that teaching them nothing about religion amounts to teaching them agnosticism or atheism, and I see nothing that's more moral -- or impartial -- about that. It's certainly to indoctrinate them into a certain mindset.


Plenty. But I don't think that subject can be covered adequately in a discussion board post.
Of course I have tried to bring up my children to the best of my ability, but for me that does not include putting fears into them for no logical reason, this to me seems cruel and pointless.
 
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Albion

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Of course I have tried to bring up my children to the best of my ability, but for me that does not include putting fears into them for no logical reason, this to me seems cruel and pointless.
Why does teaching religion require "putting fears into them for no logical reason?" I know many families that raise their children to believe in God/Jesus/Mary as loving and protective of us and do not at all instill in them a fear of the Devil or something like that.
 
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Thewonderer

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Why does teaching religion require "putting fears into them for no logical reason?" I know many families that raise their children to believe in God/Jesus/Mary as loving and protective of us and do not at all instill in them a fear of the Devil or something like that.
So at what point do we introduce them to idea of hell and eternal torture for those who do not believe?
 
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Albion

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So at what point do we introduce them to idea of hell and eternal torture for those who do not believe?
It seems to me that the issue here concerns the WAY we teach religion to our children, not that we do. To that extent, it's hardly any different from the way we teach our kids to relate to other races. We can either teach that each person, regardless of race or ethnicity, is like ourselves OR we can teach them that they're all dangerous and inferior. It's not that we ought to say nothing about the subject, but how we teach our values.
 
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Thewonderer

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It seems to me that the issue here concerns the WAY we teach religion to our children, not that we do. To that extent, it's hardly any different from the way we teach our kids to relate to other races. We can either teach that each person, regardless of race or ethnicity, is like ourselves OR we can teach them that they're all dangerous and inferior. It's not that we ought to say nothing about the subject, but how we teach our values.
Yes but, your opinion is a lot milder than some people I have spoken to about this, all I am saying is that I personally think that it's wrong to threaten anybody let alone children with something that in reality we have no proof of.
 
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Albion

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Yes but, your opinion is a lot milder than some people I have spoken to about this, all I am saying is that I personally think that it's wrong to threaten anybody let alone children with something that in reality we have no proof of.
If this is so (that I'm not like them), then it seems to me to verify what I've said--that it's not wrong to instill religion in one's children, but it might be wrong to do it badly. ;) That would be little different from instilling in them most of the rest of the values we teach. In other words, it's not that teaching religion in itself is harmful or unfair. I'd agree that it's wrong to threaten any child with any such idea, including religion or climate change or partisan political bias, etc.
 
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PapaZoom

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It's not a big if to me. And it's not forcing. It's training up a child in the way you think right. That's exactly what you are doing. But you claim you aren't forcing your ideas on your children. That's nonsense. We influence our kids because they watch everything we do. If you want to call what Christians are doing by teaching about God as "forcing" then you are forcing your ideas on your kids too.

There will be plenty of time later in life for kids to examine the things they were taught as children (a natural rite of passage) and they will learn to make decisions for themselves. But until that time, it's my responsibility to teach my kids what I think important about life. When they are ready for critical thinking challenges, those lessons will happen as well.
 
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Dre Khipov

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Hi

I am a new member and have a couple of questions (open to anybody)

I was raised Christian in the Uk, My mother and father were both Christian but did not fully explain the religion they basically forced on me.

I did all the Sunday school thing up until the age of about nine or ten,
and attended church regularly with them.

Over the years my faith has been chipped away by my own thoughts,
I question the morality in the bible and question whether children should be exposed to the sometimes gruesome stories in it.

So my first question would be, Is it ethical to indoctrinate young people into any religion?
And my second is, What does the bible teach us about morals and ethics?

I would say that your situation isn't isolated, but more of a rule of thumb. The general issue with religious indoctrination is that it's generally maintained in a bubble that shields from cognitive dissonance of obvious ideas. Once that bubble is lifted, the indoctrination tends to break down. It happens in cult environments all the time.

I would say... don't get discouraged. It's not a terrible thing. Likewise, don't lose your relationship with your parents or relatives over it. The questions of "grand philosophical scale" shouldn't overshadow a more pragmatic things of here and now.

Religion, no matter how false it is, has its time and place in human history and society. I don't think we can pragmatically judge the benefits on condition of how true the claim is. What matters really is the consequences of any given belief.

Recently a Star Wars 7 came out, and it's a film that millions of people worldwide spend tremendous efforts to be involved in. In reality it doesn't in any way correlate to the anything in reality beyond loose metaphors. Essentially, that's the goal of religion IMO... organizing people around certain ideals based on their view of reality.

There plenty of people here would would hammer "No... we must live by the truth and truth only", but the truth doesn't take precedent over ideals in our lives. In fact, few of us would really like to live in the world where the truth of the matter would be constantly drilled into us based on pure scientific empiricism. Well... there wouldn't be Star Wars for sure :)
 
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OldWiseGuy

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So at what point do we introduce them to idea of hell and eternal torture for those who do not believe?

Eternal torment is a 'devilish' idea, not at all biblical. :preach:
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Hi

I am a new member and have a couple of questions (open to anybody)

I was raised Christian in the Uk, My mother and father were both Christian but did not fully explain the religion they basically forced on me.

I did all the Sunday school thing up until the age of about nine or ten,
and attended church regularly with them.

Over the years my faith has been chipped away by my own thoughts,
I question the morality in the bible and question whether children should be exposed to the sometimes gruesome stories in it.

So my first question would be, Is it ethical to indoctrinate young people into any religion?
And my second is, What does the bible teach us about morals and ethics?

Parents do have the right to drag their kids to church with them, however, insisting on belief is usually inappropriate. This is neither the fault of God or Christ, although the ministry is often guilty of forcing 'belief' through intimidation. These of course are false teachers who toss everyone into the deep end of the pool declaring "sink or swim", when the 'little ones' should be left in the shallow end.

Children should be shown a good example by parents, and if curious should be educated without being pressured. Apart from answering questions
the very best thing a parent can tell their children regarding Christianity is that "If God wants you, he'll call you", and leave it at that.

Regarding gruesome stories, we can get more 'gruesome' from the news than from the bible. Gruesome is a fact of life, and kids learn it very early in life without the bible. One of the most gruesome acts I ever witnessed was a bunch of five or six year olds that had chopped up a large garter snake on the sidewalk and were parading around with bloody pieces impaled on sticks. It was sickening to see. Kids can be bloody little devils.
 
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zippy2006

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So my first question would be, Is it ethical to indoctrinate young people into any religion?

Dictionary.com defines indoctrinate as "to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., especially to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view."

Should people be indoctrinated? No.

Is raising a child Christian indoctrination? No.

And my second is, What does the bible teach us about morals and ethics?

Have you ever read the Bible? In my experience it is only the people who haven't actually read the Bible who speak the way you do. And making such judgments about a book one has never read smells of ...indoctrination.
 
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Thewonderer

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Dictionary.com defines indoctrinate as "to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., especially to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view."

Should people be indoctrinated? No.

Is raising a child Christian indoctrination? No.



Have you ever read the Bible? In my experience it is only the people who haven't actually read the Bible who speak the way you do. And making such judgments about a book one has never read smells of ...indoctrination.
Yes of course I have in my distant past, these days I prefer nonfiction.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It teaches kids to 'love' out of fear.
It doesn't have to. In fact, it didn't for me, and in reading and relaying the contents of the bible to my family, I don't press the idea of consequences--they speak for themselves, as do the benefits of faith.

By the way, how much indoctrination could I be foisting if I sit with my child and watch atheists' videos, among offering many other diverse, academic, secular sources for learning?

And only ONE god. Very risky odds you're running. If the true god isn't yours (and it almost certainly isn't - do the math), she may well be angered by your mistake.
Which odds and which math are you referring to, specifically? Bayesian?

2PhiloVoid
 
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