My Bad Seed Challenge

[Robert Palase]

If they did, they might end up sending out missionaries, wouldn't they?

Is that why atheists are sending out missionaries in the US? not to convert but to de-convert.

 

[AV1611VET]

Is that why atheists are sending out missionaries in the US? not to convert but to de-convert.

Probably.

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 

[PsychoSarah]

It sounds like brain washing to say that: We choose life or death, blessing or curse, sickness or health, poverty or prosperity?

That's not what people have "control" over. Even if I thought that belief was a fully conscious choice, which I don't, that's what people would have control over. Not whether or not they would be rewarded. What if a person wanted to believe, but also go to hell without angering YHWH? Furthermore, we definitely cannot choose not to get sick, or have complete say in whether or not we live in poverty or prosperity. The decisions of people outside of ourselves often impact both of those, and we certainly cannot prevent ourselves from inheriting genetic diseases (although, we have some degree of control over whether our children do thanks to advances in medicine).

My son is graduating from High School. He worked VERY hard and he already has a years worth of college credits. He did not choose poverty his choice was prosperity and he is working hard for that.

And I am sure many of the impoverished families of the world would love to send their children to university, but they lack the resources to do so. Your son might pass or fail his classes based on his personal efforts, but it is entirely possible for people to be born into a situation that would make even attending a university impossible. Do you think Moses could have attended colleges before they existed? And job markets are highly competitive, so it is entirely possible that your son will still have a life of poverty in his future, no matter how well he does in his classes. If people could just choose to be wealthy directly, everyone would be. But that isn't how life works. I can choose to make the best of what situation I am born into, but that doesn't mean my life will ever be good, despite my efforts. A person can be 200X as good and worthy a person as your son, but be so hindered by the situation that they were born into that they never get past basic schooling; they could also die before that point.

Not only him but the kids he has been in school with all along. They have learned to choose life, blessing, health and prosperity.

Their efforts and benefits of being born in a developed nation will certainly increase their chances of being well-off, but nothing a person does will guarantee it.

Not everyone makes that choice. For example my wife knows a women from her job that got killed by a bullet in a drive by shooting. Someone got involved with the wrong people and someone did not choose life, health, prosperity and God's blessings. We are just trying to help people to make the right choice.

How nice of you to assume this woman was in with a bad crowd, rather than a random victim of a violent act. Even if you are right, and she was involved with some bad people (or even a bad person herself), that is not the case for every victim of violence. So many people born with HIV whose parents can't pay for the medications and die as children, so many people mistaken for someone else that take a bullet never intended for them, so many people walking down the wrong street at the wrong time, so many people that perish in a car wreak because their brakes failed and the vehicle was yet to be recalled... Bad things happen to good people all the time, completely independent of their choices. Sure, they chose to buy the car, but they didn't choose willfully to buy one with bad breaks.

 

[joshua 1 9]

That's not what people have "control" over.

My father served the community for over 50 years as a Pediatrician. That was exactly his attitude or belief that parents can not blame themselves when tragedy strikes their children. If you take a closer look at the Bible though the sins of the parents do pass onto the children. It is only in Christ that we are set free from that and children no longer have to suffer for the sins of the parents. Just as parents no longer have to suffer for the sins of their children.

 

[joshua 1 9]

How nice of you to assume this woman was in with a bad crowd

I never said that, you are the one that is making that assumption. Actually my assumption would be that her son did something to someone and they were trying to even the score. I do not know much about the hood or the getto or whatever you call those sort of poverty infested neighborhoods, but I have been told a little bit about what life is like there. Even as you are attempting to tell me about what life is like for these people.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Your son might pass or fail his classes based on his personal efforts, but it is entirely possible for people to be born into a situation that would make even attending a university impossible.

All my son did was he worked hard. Anyone in this state can work hard and graduate from high school with two years worth of college. The people that take advantage of the opportunity they have are not smarter they are just willing to work harder. In fact my wife comes from a third world nation and they had to sacrifice themselves quite a bit to get a good education and to come out of their poverty. Even she would ask for a candy bar and her dad told her that he could not afford to buy candy because he needed the money to buy school supplies for her.

Do you think Moses could have attended colleges before they existed?

Moses legal status was the son of a Pharaoh so he received a very good education. The best education you could get in his day and age. Of course a Pharaoh had lots and lots of wives and kids. Did you ever see the movie: "A King and I"? The was a movie about a English teacher that was hired by a king to teach his many children. One of those children, one of her students would someday be the king and he would have to have diplomatic relations with the English speaking world. This was why Moses could approach the Pharaoh when he did because the Pharaoh would have been his brother and this would give Moses the ability to go before the Pharaoh to present his request.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I never said that, you are the one that is making that assumption. Actually my assumption would be that her son did something to someone and they were trying to even the score. I do not know much about the hood or the getto or whatever you call those sort of poverty infested neighborhoods, but I have been told a little bit about what life is like there. Even as you are attempting to tell me about what life is like for these people.

You are still assuming something was done by someone to make this act of violence targeted towards this person. Why, in a world where it is so common for good people to be victims of this kind of crime, would you do that?

I said nothing of ghettos, or how life is like for people that live in them. People that live in poverty don't automatically live in ghettos -_- .

 

[PsychoSarah]

My father served the community for over 50 years as a Pediatrician. That was exactly his attitude or belief that parents can not blame themselves when tragedy strikes their children. If you take a closer look at the Bible though the sins of the parents do pass onto the children.

Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers or not?
Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9 and Deuteronomy 24:16, Ezekiel 18:20

1. Yes, they do.
   1. (Exodus 20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
   2. (Deuteronomy 5:9) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
   3. (Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
   4. (1 Cor. 15:22) - "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
2. No, they don't.
   1. (Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
   2. (Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

from https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/do-sons-bear-sins-fathers-or-not
The bible says both, and you should remember that from reading the bible ever so carefully, right? Furthermore, you're just going to create a string of blame, because guess what? Parents have parents too. You also call it sins, but a good portion of the time, it is bad luck. A farming family has consecutive bad farming years, and goes bankrupt. Whose sin was that? No ones. The world is cruel and unfair to a lot of people.

It is only in Christ that we are set free from that and children no longer have to suffer for the sins of the parents. Just as parents no longer have to suffer for the sins of their children.

Again with the sins. You do realize generations can be decent, hardworking people, and their offspring can still be impoverished despite their own efforts, right? Consider also the success of truly awful people. Do you honestly think the ruling family of North Korea has done less to insult YHWH than a poor rural farmer in Vietnam? Reminder that the North Korean leaders force the populace to worship them as deities.

 

[joshua 1 9]

You are still assuming something was done by someone to make this act of violence targeted towards this person. Why, in a world where it is so common for good people to be victims of this kind of crime, would you do that?

I said nothing of ghettos, or how life is like for people that live in them. People that live in poverty don't automatically live in ghettos -_- .

Ok fine sense you want to declare yourself and expert on drive by shooting then you tell me what is a drive by shooting all about. Why would someone pick on her house and decide to randomly shoot bullets into her home and kill her in the process? Just remember one thing, I went through Basic training in the army. So I know a little bit about guns and how to shoot them. In fact the Army tested me and awarded me the distinction of being a sharpshooter. I am pretty sure I was trained that you do not randomly shoot bullets into people's home when you do not have a reason to shoot and kill people. Of course I did not go through advanced infantry because my advanced training was as a medic so they were training me to pick the bloody pieces up off of the ground. So I am glad you understand all of this so well that you can explain why there is so much injustice in the world and why people hurt each other to the degree that they do. I mean I found the answer for all of that in the Bible. But you seem to feel you have an answer for why people do this sort of thing to each other so I would really like to know what your understanding of this injustice is.

 

[joshua 1 9]

The bible says both

I made it very clear there is an old and a new covenant. When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior then we enter into a Covenant with him. This is a Covenant that is not available to non believers that are still under the law. This is why we work so hard to try to explain to people what is available to them and the sort of relationship they can have with the God that created them.

 

[PsychoSarah]

All my son did was he worked hard. Anyone in this state can work hard and graduate from high school with two years worth of college.

Incorrect. I bet you all the money I will collectively make in my lifetime that a person with Angelman syndrome will never get a 2 year degree. Or did you forget it's possible to be born with mental defects? Yeah, I wonder how much effort is going to work to make the life of a person born with anencephaly have a productive life? Seems rather improbable, considering they're missing significant portions of their brain.

The people that take advantage of the opportunity they have are not smarter they are just willing to work harder. In fact my wife comes from a third world nation and they had to sacrifice themselves quite a bit to get a good education and to come out of their poverty.

Just because her family could do it, doesn't mean all people can. 1 case does not a pattern make.

Even she would ask for a candy bar and her dad told her that he could not afford to buy candy because he needed the money to buy school supplies for her.

And I should care why? By your logic, her family was just not working hard enough to give their daughter both, or some crime of an ancestor was inhibiting them. FYI, if that logic was sound, Australia should definitely be a third-world country. Oh wait, the country in which a good portion of the population was descended from recognized criminals is a developed country? Good luck reconciling that one.

Moses legal status was the son of a Pharaoh so he received a very good education.

For the time period. By modern standards, his education was sub par.

The best education you could get in his day and age.

Which, by a modern standard, isn't saying much. Again, the circumstance of Moses's birth limited him more than your son in terms of education, and you cannot deny that.

Of course a Pharaoh had lots and lots of wives and kids. Did you ever see the movie: "A King and I"? The was a movie about a English teacher that was hired by a king to teach his many children. One of those children, one of her students would someday be the king and he would have to have diplomatic relations with the English speaking world. This was why Moses could approach the Pharaoh when he did because the Pharaoh would have been his brother and this would give Moses the ability to go before the Pharaoh to present his request.

The King and I is a play to most people that would appreciate it, and that play is based off of a novel of questionable validity. It has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I don't care if Moses was the most educated man of his time, he'd still be less educated than your average 13 year old that had attended school since the age of 5 in a modern setting. He still would be more limited than your son.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Ok fine sense you want to declare yourself and expert on drive by shooting then you tell me what is a drive by shooting all about. Why would someone pick on her house and decide to randomly shoot bullets into her home and kill her in the process?

Simple: she wasn't targeted because of who she was, but where she happened to be. It's a common gang initiation to kill someone, and if not a member of a rival gang, then a random person on the street (yes, I know you said she was in her house, you get the point). Gang leader points to a house, and tells the potential new members to kill anyone inside, and they do.

It could also be a case of mistaken identity. She wasn't the target, but rather, her neighbor was, and the shooters accidentally shot up her house instead.

I'm not an expert, but I have been interested in the subject of gang violence, so I have put time into studying it a bit. Have you? You know, I don't need expert status to have more authority on a topic than you do.

Just remember one thing, I went through Basic training in the army. So I know a little bit about guns and how to shoot them. In fact the Army tested me and awarded me the distinction of being a sharpshooter. I am pretty sure I was trained that you do not randomly shoot bullets into people's home when you do not have a reason to shoot and kill people.

Military training and gang violence are not really related to each other. And I never said there wasn't a reason, just that the reason could be unrelated to anything done by the woman's family or herself.

Of course I did not go through advanced infantry because my advanced training was as a medic so they were training me to pick the bloody pieces up off of the ground. So I am glad you understand all of this so well that you can explain why there is so much injustice in the world and why people hurt each other to the degree that they do. I mean I found the answer for all of that in the Bible. But you seem to feel you have an answer for why people do this sort of thing to each other so I would really like to know what your understanding of this injustice is.

We're an aggressive and territorial species. Much like how meerkat groups will challenge each other and even kill for territory, our ancestors did the same. We haven't be out of that stage of existence long enough for selective pressures to even begin to start removing it, and one might argue we are still in it, considering all the wars. Plus, a lot of bad things are outside of our control. We can't stop a hurricane, or an earthquake, or a tornado. At most, we can mitigate their damage as much as possible by altering architecture or having planned evacuations. Those sorts of things cover a lot.

But hey, given that I don't believe in a benign, all powerful creator deity watching over the universe, why would I ever think it was odd that injustice exists? It would be weirder if I thought the world was supposed to be fair.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I made it very clear there is an old and a new covenant. When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior then we enter into a Covenant with him. This is a Covenant that is not available to non believers that are still under the law. This is why we work so hard to try to explain to people what is available to them and the sort of relationship they can have with the God that created them.

Even if I agreed with your personal interpretation, which I have no obligation to do and no overt reason to, you are literally implying that Christians can do whatever they want and be forgiven. But forbid a nonbeliever have a single lustful thought, because they gonna burn like the buns whenever my mom is cooking.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Even if I agreed with your personal interpretation

There is NO personal interpretation. This is the first knowledge. We need to know this first.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

1. to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
   
   1. to become known
      
2. to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
   
   1. to understand
      
      
   2. to know
      
3. Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
   
   
4. to become acquainted with, to know
   

 

[joshua 1 9]

you are literally implying that Christians can do whatever they want and be forgiven

Not at all. I am implying the opposite. It is actually my wife that was the Methodist but John Wesley's teaching was very much Holiness teaching. What some people call sinless perfection. Jesus came to fufill the law, not FOR US, He came to fulfill the Law IN us and THROUGH us. That is why we are a new creation in Christ. We are to be born again. ALL the old passes away and everything is new. My wife is a very soft spoken, loving and easy going person. But the standards she sets for herself and her family are VERY high. There is no middle ground for her in this regard.

2Cor5:17
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

 

[PsychoSarah]

There is NO personal interpretation. This is the first knowledge. We need to know this first.

Any understanding you glean from a text will inevitably be your personal interpretation. Unless you are basing it off of someone else's, then it will be your interpretation of their interpretation. I have no idea why you are reacting this way, other than you want your personal interpretation to be above everyone else's... which it can be while still being your personal interpretation. Also, if that was the part of the bible people needed to know first, then why isn't it the first thing addressed in chronological order?

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

That's for prophecies, not general rules of cause and effect. The "sins of the father" thing doesn't really apply here. Also, I wonder how many times the phrase "knowing this first" is used in the bible, or equivalent statements.

1. to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
   

   1. to become known

   [*]to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
   

   1. to understand
      
      
   2. to know

   [*]Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
   
   
   [*]to become acquainted with, to know

XD Just imagine reading the bible applying only the 3rd definition of "know" the whole way. It might have 2% more sexual oddness in it XD XD XD (because the bible has a lot of sex references already).

 

[PsychoSarah]

Not at all. I am implying the opposite. It is actually my wife that was the Methodist but John Wesley's teaching was very much Holiness teaching. What some people call sinless perfection. Jesus came to fufill the law, not FOR US, He came to fulfill the Law IN us and THROUGH us. That is why we are a new creation in Christ. We are to be born again. ALL the old passes away and everything is new. My wife is a very soft spoken, loving and easy going person. But the standards she sets for herself and her family are VERY high. There is no middle ground for her in this regard.

Morals are so arbitrary, that to say someone has a high moral standard just means that they follow their morals very closely without deviation, not that their personal morality is particularly good.

2Cor5:17
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Then why do nonbelievers burn for "sins", but Christians don't? You cannot deny this, because if you do, then Jesus isn't washing away your sins.

You act as if nonbelievers are never good people. Maybe you never got to know any that were, or weren't aware that some of the good people you do know are nonbelievers. But unless you want to say the majority of the Swedish population is morally garbage, and have evidence to back it, neither of us have a basis for thinking that nonbelievers can't be just as good in their actions as believers. Inevitable comment: "but Christians do it for the glory of god, and not for the hubris of man like nonbelievers do". Counter to this: disregarding the nonbelievers in your specific deity that worship other gods and perform acts for them, people don't usually give to charity or generally be good to get praise and rewards from others, and doing it for that reason is not exclusive to nonbelievers. Actually, if you are only being good for the glory of god, that kinda means that the only reason you are being a good person is because of some reward you're going to get after you die.

I know from your perspective, improving the lives we live on earth is ultimately meaningless when contrasted with an eternal afterlife. However, to a person that doesn't believe in an afterlife, using up time that could be dedicated to personal fulfillment for the sake of other people is sacrifice even Jesus wouldn't be able to understand. To me, people only get this one life, and that I would cease to reap the benefits of my own for a period of time so that others may do it instead, when my time is limited, is a big deal. To you, this charity is nothing, just what you're supposed to do to please a deity before you have eternal pleasure. To me, such acts are foregoing my own limited enjoyment for the sake of the happiness of other people (because I do not get any pleasure out of charity work, because some people you clean up after will "spit in your face" for doing them a service). But, for me to be unhappy, even if it would only make 2 other people happy, would make it worth it. Even if those people would never thank me, heck, some even hate me, for doing it. I'm not duty bound to help strangers like you, but I've still done it. Does this perplex you, does this confuse you? If it does, I don't understand how common kindness and generosity could be incomprehensible.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Ok fine sense you want to declare yourself and expert on drive by shooting then you tell me what is a drive by shooting all about. Why would someone pick on her house and decide to randomly shoot bullets into her home and kill her in the process? Just remember one thing, I went through Basic training in the army. So I know a little bit about guns and how to shoot them. In fact the Army tested me and awarded me the distinction of being a sharpshooter. I am pretty sure I was trained that you do not randomly shoot bullets into people's home when you do not have a reason to shoot and kill people. Of course I did not go through advanced infantry because my advanced training was as a medic so they were training me to pick the bloody pieces up off of the ground. So I am glad you understand all of this so well that you can explain why there is so much injustice in the world and why people hurt each other to the degree that they do. I mean I found the answer for all of that in the Bible. But you seem to feel you have an answer for why people do this sort of thing to each other so I would really like to know what your understanding of this injustice is.

Now, now, Joshua.... don't get snippy just because the more obvious holes in your argument were exposed...

 

[joshua 1 9]

Now, now, Joshua.... don't get snippy just because the more obvious holes in your argument were exposed...

Is this a pun synonym: "holes in your argument" and holes in your front door that leaves a friend and colleague dead? We literally wrote the book on that sort of dark humor so I can play that tune. The best way to get even with your family is NOT to leave a will. That way you can have the pleasure of thinking about all the fighting that will go on over the stuff that you leave behind.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Then why do nonbelievers burn for "sins", but Christians don't?

I never got away with anything. Christians pay for their sins here, now in this life. Usually when they have made a completion of sin. Jesus tells us the FEW find their way to eternal life. As Christians we are to repent and turn away from sin, we are not to die in our sin the way the world does. Perhaps this is difficult for you to understand. That is why we need the Holy Spirit of God to guide us into the truth. We need to be filled with the Spirit.This is what Pentacost was all about when the Spirit was poured out on the Church. This is the Holy Spirit dispensation, the church age.

"But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death".

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it". matt 7 14

"If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that." 1 John 5:16

"29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 Now if we judged ourselves properly, we would not come under judgment.…" 1 cor 11

We are to set a proper example for others.