Mutations and Evolution

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
There seems to be confusion in other threads as to what a mutation is and how it relates to the process of biological evolution.

First, this is the definition that biologists use:

"In biology, a mutation is a permanent change of the nucleotide sequence of the genome of an organism, virus, or extrachromosomal DNA or other genetic elements. Mutations result from damage to DNA which is not repaired or to RNA genomes (typically caused by radiation or chemical mutagens), errors in the process of replication, or from the insertion or deletion of segments of DNA by mobile genetic elements.[1][2][3] Mutations may or may not produce discernible changes in the observable characteristics (phenotype) of an organism."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation

The first question I would like to ask the audience is this:

Humans and chimps look different. They have slightly different body shapes, slightly different physiology, etc. How do you explain these differences?

1. The physical differences (i.e. phenotypes) are due to differences in the DNA sequence of their genomes.

2. Other (include an explanation).
 

justlookinla

Regular Member
Mar 31, 2014
11,767
198
✟20,665.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There seems to be confusion in other threads as to what a mutation is and how it relates to the process of biological evolution.

First, this is the definition that biologists use:

"In biology, a mutation is a permanent change of the nucleotide sequence of the genome of an organism, virus, or extrachromosomal DNA or other genetic elements. Mutations result from damage to DNA which is not repaired or to RNA genomes (typically caused by radiation or chemical mutagens), errors in the process of replication, or from the insertion or deletion of segments of DNA by mobile genetic elements.[1][2][3] Mutations may or may not produce discernible changes in the observable characteristics (phenotype) of an organism."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation

The first question I would like to ask the audience is this:

Humans and chimps look different. They have slightly different body shapes, slightly different physiology, etc. How do you explain these differences?

1. The physical differences (i.e. phenotypes) are due to differences in the DNA sequence of their genomes.

2. Other (include an explanation).

Different designs....kinda like a 4 wheel drive vs. a corvette.
 
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,652
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟104,175.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Different designs....kinda like a 4 wheel drive vs. a corvette.

God would needed to have designed humans with telomeres located in the middle of chromosome 2, where they can serve no useful purpose.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
God would needed to have designed humans with telomeres located in the middle of chromosome 2, where they can serve no useful purpose.

The first question focuses more on the link between genotype and phenotype. I'm certainly not a moderator, but it might help if we discuss neutral mutations later in the thread.
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟143,395.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Different designs....kinda like a 4 wheel drive vs. a corvette.

So, does that mean that you disagree that there is a relation between phenotype and genotype?

If that is the case, then what role does DNA play in your view?

If that is not the case... then why didn't you just answer with option 1: the difference are due to different DNA sequences?
 
Upvote 0

justlookinla

Regular Member
Mar 31, 2014
11,767
198
✟20,665.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So, does that mean that you disagree that there is a relation between phenotype and genotype?

If that is the case, then what role does DNA play in your view?

If that is not the case... then why didn't you just answer with option 1: the difference are due to different DNA sequences?

Phenotype, genotype.....meaningless in the question concerning how humanity was created.
 
Upvote 0

Oncedeceived

Senior Veteran
Jul 11, 2003
21,214
629
✟66,670.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God would needed to have designed humans with telomeres located in the middle of chromosome 2, where they can serve no useful purpose.
Actually there is evidence that it does serve a useful purpose. It looks like it could be a promoter.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Zosimus

Non-Christian non-evolution believer
Oct 3, 2013
1,656
33
Lima, Peru
✟17,000.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
God would needed to have designed humans with telomeres located in the middle of chromosome 2, where they can serve no useful purpose.
So if I see a car with a smashed windshield that someone is still driving around, I must assume either that the designer of the car designed the car with a smashed windshield or that the car was not designed?
 
Upvote 0

Zosimus

Non-Christian non-evolution believer
Oct 3, 2013
1,656
33
Lima, Peru
✟17,000.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Does everyone agree that the physical differences between species is due to the DNA sequence differences between their genomes?
No. First of all, species is an undefined and meaningless term. Second, differences in appearance might be due to epigenetics.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
So if I see a car with a smashed windshield that someone is still driving around, I must assume either that the designer of the car designed the car with a smashed windshield or that the car was not designed?

You don't have to assume anything. There is this thing called evidence . . . oh wait, I forgot. You ignore evidence. Never mind.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
No. First of all, species is an undefined and meaningless term.

Species are defined by gene flow, and it has meaning for the topic at hand since population specific mutations will stay in those populations.

Second, differences in appearance might be due to epigenetics.

Might?

Can you give examples of mechanisms involved in epigenetics that can produce the differences seen between species such as humans and chimps over hundreds of thousands of years?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Zosimus

Non-Christian non-evolution believer
Oct 3, 2013
1,656
33
Lima, Peru
✟17,000.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
You don't have to assume anything. There is this thing called evidence . . . oh wait, I forgot. You ignore evidence. Never mind.
I don't ignore evidence. I simply deny that evidence can verify a theory true considering that there are infinite numbers of theories that are compatible with the evidence.
 
Upvote 0

Zosimus

Non-Christian non-evolution believer
Oct 3, 2013
1,656
33
Lima, Peru
✟17,000.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Species are defined by gene flow, and it has meaning for the topic at hand since population specific mutations will stay in those populations.



Might?

Can you give examples of mechanisms involved in epigenetics that can produce the differences seen between species such as humans and chimps over hundreds of thousands of years?
Your argument presupposes multiple unproved things.

At the very least, it presupposes that humans and chimps share a common ancestor and that the differences between the two are the result of thousands of years of mutations. Yet here in this forum there are people who will assure you that the world is no more than 6,000 years old. You have yet to refute their arguments.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
Your argument presupposes multiple unproved things.

At the very least, it presupposes that humans and chimps share a common ancestor and that the differences between the two are the result of thousands of years of mutations.

I assume no such thing. It is a conclusion supported by massive amounts of genetic evidence.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/creationist-arguments-against-ervs.7898737/

Yet here in this forum there are people who will assure you that the world is no more than 6,000 years old. You have yet to refute their arguments.

I refute them in the thread above.

Also, you avoided everything I posted, as usual. You try to distract with red herrings to avoid the evidence.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
I don't ignore evidence. I simply deny that evidence can verify a theory true considering that there are infinite numbers of theories that are compatible with the evidence.

Then go somewhere else. This is the science forum.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Zosimus

Non-Christian non-evolution believer
Oct 3, 2013
1,656
33
Lima, Peru
✟17,000.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0