Moving Forward with Catholic/Orthodox Relationship

[gurneyhalleck1]

Very wise, Katherine. I'm with you.

It's better than sugar-coating it. Maybe people need to see the truth of a mixed-faith marriage and at least make an informed decision as to whether they would be happy in the marriage. If they decide that it wouldn't work for them, it is probably better that they didn't go through with the marriage and make a big mistake. If they decide to get married, at least they know what they may ( or will) be dealing with. I had a friend who was engaged to an extremely jealous man and wasn't sure if she should marry him. She knew my mother had the same problem in her first marriage. She asked me to ask my mother for advice. My mom didn't usually give advice but she said that my friend had to realize that she wasn't going to change him and had to think long and hard about whether she could live with the jealousy. My friend ended up breaking off the relationship. Is pointing out the reality of a mixed-religion relationship really bad or is it telling them the truth so that they can make an informed decision as to whether they can live with and be happy with what they may have to live with if they get married?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don't think anyone is alienating anybody. I think people are just being honest like the OP asked them to do. The OP is Roman Catholic. Imagine if she marries this guy and goes against her faith and then is miserable. OR, imagine if she marries this guy and then the religious stuff is a point of contention and they divorce! She is Catholic, so she can't remarry! There is a host of problems that come along with this situation. The die isn't necessarily cast yet, but if they do marry, we all wish them well and hope the OP can find peace. it's just a tough situation and the majority of posters are advising caution, not alienation.

It seems like a great way to alienate people is to strongly recommend to somebody interested in intermarriage that they not do intermarriage and tell them what a terrible idea it is. At that point, they may intermarry and you've already told them it is horrible. Fantastic. It's better to recognize, if the die is already cast, that you should suggest ways that make intermarriage work better and maximize the chance of continued adherence to the religion. Marriage of an Orthodox Christian to another sincere Christian who appreciates Orthodoxy is a much better outcome than many other common ones we are presented with.

 

[Hoankan]

Mod Hat On

As this topic is a sensitive one, please remember to keep things civil and on topic. Arguing with each other or making accusations will not help.
​

 

[LectioDivina]

Update:
We have both read the When You Intermarry Book-- he read it first and I just finished it. Obviously being written by an Orthodox priest with couples in an Orthodox parish, I expected some one-sidedness. And in the entire book, there's one sentence where an Othodox woman went to her husband's church with him because he was far more religious. Anyone mentioned that had children ended up raising any children Orthodox. But the book talks about the reasons why the kids were raised Orthodox-- the Orthodox partner was more religious, the Orthodox partner was the mother who would spend more time raising the kids so it made sense for them to share her faith, etc. And with all of these scenarios and encouraging words of discussing things together and making decisions on the kids' faith together, I believed that these would be discussions where I would have some weight and input.

But last night my boyfriend said that if the kids aren't baptized Orthodox, that he'll be excommunicated. Is this the case? In 150 pages of text, there's one sentence on page 126 that alludes to decisions about the children's upbringing into their partner's faith potentially jeopardizing their standing in the Orthodox faith. Which, it would seems to me, contradicts the "decide and discuss what's best together" message. After I expressed my confusion, he admitted that maybe he was wrong.

If you have any insight on this, please let me know. I just want to know the conditions of my situation without any further, preventable surprises.

Thank you.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Just subscribing.

I have heard somewhere that in a mixed marriage, the couple must be married in an Orthodox Church and must agree to baptize and raise their children Orthodox, but please let someone else verify that. It's not a situation that applies to me, so I did not verify the source. I'm also still a catechumen.

I know a married Orthodox catechumen who is converting from Catholicism, and his wife is not converting with him. It does cause distress and tension. Their children are divided on which Church they (the children) want to attend. In-law problems are also something you want to test the waters on. However, being that he is converting, his priest is not giving him any trouble at all whichever way the parents or children decide and is only offering support/help either way.

Those are all of the possible surprises I know of. You may want to familiarize yourself also with the Orthodox sacrament of marriage and the intent of marriage, etc. But that part I find quite beautiful. (Unfortunately, my husband is not converting with me either - but neither of us are Catholic so my experience is probably not helpful.)

You have my prayers.

 

[buzuxi02]

Interfaith marriage needs to be thought out very well if both sides are serious about there faith.

If they aren't, then it doesn't make a difference. The GOARCH unfortunately fosters an attitude which I really don't think they take the sacrament seriously. My friend is married to a roman catholic and they raiser their kids Orthodox. She attends Orthodox services and even volunteered to help out with coordinating the little girls who pay the myhr bearing women on Great Friday. I don't think anyone ever asked her if she wants to convert. Before they are married and met with the priest, my friend told his fiance that the Orthodox church is strict and she will be grilled. The only thing priest asked her was something about her baptismal certificate and what date they want to schedule for the wedding.


In NY, intermarriage between Greeks and Jews is rampant, and honestly I don't think there is any canonical impediment being enforced for the laity by the GOA. Infact I think the late archbishop Iakovos even confirmed it when they asked whether michael Dukakis was in good standing for having married a Jewish women. Whether it was Telly Savalas or its Jamie Dimon intermarriage with Jews amongst greeks is high, and yes there kids will simply grow up with no religion at all. And I know this first hand.

 

[buzuxi02]

Interfaith marriage needs to be thought out very well if both sides are serious about there faith.

If they aren't, then it doesn't make a difference. The GOARCH unfortunately fosters an attitude which I really don't think they take the sacrament seriously. My friend is married to a roman catholic and they raise their kids Orthodox. She attends Orthodox services and even volunteered to help out with coordinating the little girls who represent the myhr bearing women on Great Friday. I don't think anyone ever even thought to ask her if she wants to convert. Before they were married and met with the priest, my friend told his fiance that the Orthodox church is strict and she will be grilled. The only thing the priest asked her was something about her baptismal certificate and what date they want to schedule for the wedding.


In NY, intermarriage between Greeks and Jews is rampant, and honestly I don't think there is any canonical impediment being enforced for the laity that marry outside the faith by the GOA. Infact I think the late archbishop Iakovos even confirmed it when they asked whether michael Dukakis was in good standing for having married a Jewish women. Whether it was Telly Savalas or its Jamie Dimon intermarriage with Jews amongst greeks is high, and yes there kids will simply grow up with no religion at all. And I know this first hand.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't know about excommunicated (although that may be the case), but I do know that the Orthodox person must raise the kids Orthodox. I know of some families that are split and one spouse does commune though.

Lord have mercy on you

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Honestly I think something just has to give. One of you needs to convert, or just forget it. If religion is this divergent a sticking point and it's going to cause this kind of strife when you folks aren't even married yet, imagine the issues it'll cause down the road! You're so much better off being married to a like-minded Christian. This can really backfire.

 

[LectioDivina]

Just subscribing.

I have heard somewhere that in a mixed marriage, the couple must be married in an Orthodox Church and must agree to baptize and raise their children Orthodox, but please let someone else verify that. It's not a situation that applies to me, so I did not verify the source. I'm also still a catechumen.

I know a married Orthodox catechumen who is converting from Catholicism, and his wife is not converting with him. It does cause distress and tension. Their children are divided on which Church they (the children) want to attend. In-law problems are also something you want to test the waters on. However, being that he is converting, his priest is not giving him any trouble at all whichever way the parents or children decide and is only offering support/help either way.

Those are all of the possible surprises I know of. You may want to familiarize yourself also with the Orthodox sacrament of marriage and the intent of marriage, etc. But that part I find quite beautiful. (Unfortunately, my husband is not converting with me either - but neither of us are Catholic so my experience is probably not helpful.)

You have my prayers.

Thank you for your prayers and insight. I knew that we couldn't get married in the Catholic Church. Even though it is permitted by the Catholic Church if I receive a dispensation, I also have to vow to raise my children Catholic.

Interfaith marriage needs to be thought out very well if both sides are serious about there faith.

If they aren't, then it doesn't make a difference. The GOARCH unfortunately fosters an attitude which I really don't think they take the sacrament seriously. My friend is married to a roman catholic and they raiser their kids Orthodox. She attends Orthodox services and even volunteered to help out with coordinating the little girls who pay the myhr bearing women on Great Friday. I don't think anyone ever asked her if she wants to convert. Before they are married and met with the priest, my friend told his fiance that the Orthodox church is strict and she will be grilled. The only thing priest asked her was something about her baptismal certificate and what date they want to schedule for the wedding.


In NY, intermarriage between Greeks and Jews is rampant, and honestly I don't think there is any canonical impediment being enforced for the laity by the GOA. Infact I think the late archbishop Iakovos even confirmed it when they asked whether michael Dukakis was in good standing for having married a Jewish women. Whether it was Telly Savalas or its Jamie Dimon intermarriage with Jews amongst greeks is high, and yes there kids will simply grow up with no religion at all. And I know this first hand.

This is all good insight. We are both strong-willed about retaining our religions (although our level of adherence is more variable than I wish it were). And I don't want to have kids with a weak faith of any sort. Living a devout Christian life, regardless of the sect, is difficult with a solid foundation. It's impossible without one, in my opinion.

I don't know about excommunicated (although that may be the case), but I do know that the Orthodox person must raise the kids Orthodox. I know of some families that are split and one spouse does commune though.

Lord have mercy on you

And the Catholic ones must raise them Catholic. Either these kids can't be the same people, or someone has to bend, like gurneyhalleck1 said.

Honestly I think something just has to give. One of you needs to convert, or just forget it. If religion is this divergent a sticking point and it's going to cause this kind of strife when you folks aren't even married yet, imagine the issues it'll cause down the road! You're so much better off being married to a like-minded Christian. This can really backfire.

Religion isn't a sticking point at this time in our relationship unless he wants more physical intimacy than is permitted or he wants to get me out of my parents house and into an apartment with him.

My frustration arose after I spent time reading a book that was recommended and that he gave me, based on Orthodox, Christian interfaith marriages, and said children's faith lives were an important topic for discussion that had the potential for variable outcomes. Then be just blurted out (admittedly in an already heated situation) that that wasn't the case. Those are mixed messages. If he wanted me to come away with the message "Orthodox or bust," he could have saved himself the money spent purchasing the book, and both us the time spent reading it by printing out a business card with these words. I just felt very misled by those two, very different sentiments.

But he admitted that he doesn't actually know, so I'm just trying to learn. Like you've said, I don't get to remarry if we were to have an unsuccessful marriage. I want to know everything I can upfront, and he doesn't have the answers to many questions. I agree that we need to decide if this is something that is feasible or if we need to break it off.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Maybe you should consider meeting with both an Orthodox and a Catholic priest, to get more direct answers?

What I fear you may find is that either the children must be raised Orthodox, or else your fiancé is going to have to be pretty "nominal", possibly to the point of excommunicating himself from his Church.

I feel for you. My very first impulse was this was do-able, but you are wise to look into the ramifications and decide if you can live with them. Whether I was right on that count or not, it am starting to wonder if commitment to faith might not be the more important issue.

My husband and I were of slightly different opinion when we married, but I admired his steadfast commitment. As it happens, I have changed Church since then (pretty radically) so we are not on the same page anymore anyway. But a lukewarm faith presents all of its own problems. Of course, that is subject to change as well, but one of the things I appreciate about the Orthodox view of marriage is something I think they really got right (meaning I appreciate all of the faith, but this one is especially wonderfully stated, IMO) ... And that is that a married person's responsibility is to do the best thing for the sake of the salvation of their spouse over all other considerations. Truly beautiful, and truly laying down one's life in sacrificial fashion, showing forth the mystery of Christ as Bridegroom and the Church as His Bride in a way nothing else does.

That alone makes me think being married to an Orthodox person would be ideal.

But you being Catholic, he being possibly lukewarm, have other things to consider as well. May God bless and guide you. Lord have mercy.

 

[gzt]

Seriously: contact the bishops (both the Catholic and the Orthodox) in question to get the diocesan policy and clarification. The whole thing may have to hinge on, alas, some casuistry.

At least in America, on the Catholic end, this is what the USCCB has said:

In marriages in which our two churches are involved, decisions, including the initial one of the children's church membership, rest with both husband and wife. The decisions should take into account the good of the children, the strength of the religious convictions of the parents and other relatives, the demands of parents' consciences, the unity and stability of the family, and other specific contexts. In some cases, when it appears highly probable that only one of the partners will fulfill his or her responsibility, it seems desirable that children should be raised in that partner's church. In other cases, the children's spiritual formation may include a fuller participation in the life and traditions of both churches, respecting always each church's canonical order. In these cases, the decision regarding the children's church membership is more difficult to make. Yet we are convinced that it is possible to make this decision in good conscience because of the proximity of our churches' doctrine and practice which enables each, to a high degree, to see the other precisely as Church, as the locus for the communion of the faithful with God and with each other through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit.

The specific directive int he OCA clergy guidelines is

In a mixed marriage, the Orthodox partner should not consent to have children of the union
baptized outside the Orthodox Church as a pre-marriage agreement.

There is some room for wiggling. But talk to the ordinary. But I would just note that the Orthodox bishop has no authority over the Catholic party and the Catholic bishop has no authority over the Orthodox party, so, eg, the Catholic party should not have to make any assurances to the Orthodox church.

Speculation on the part of uninvolved parties, especially those with little experience in Orthodoxy (sorry, Kylissa) should nto be encouraged.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Sound thinking. But keep in mind there was a time when I thought it was IMPOSSIBLE for me to leave the Catholic Church and the papacy, and I was 100% sold on the idea of Matthew 16:18 equating to the Pope, that the Orthodox were heterodox rebels, that the Holy Father is the universal infallible teacher and pastor over all the world, purgatory, legalism, indulgences (I used to pray from the handbook of indulgences from the Vatican!), EWTN, Scott Hahn, super mega anti-contraception, everything outside of the papacy is dangerous and wobbly, you name it. Catholicism did more damage to my marriage than anything. My wife and I were able to regain our faith, our moral compass, our theological sanity, and order in our lives when we got OUT of Catholicism. You're in the place I was about 7 years ago....the thought of leaving Catholicism is like the thought of me moving to Iran back then! If you'd have told me I'd convert to Orthodoxy circa 2005, I'd bet you $1 million you're full of it and it'd NEVER happen!

Thank you for your prayers and insight. I knew that we couldn't get married in the Catholic Church. Even though it is permitted by the Catholic Church if I receive a dispensation, I also have to vow to raise my children Catholic.



This is all good insight. We are both strong-willed about retaining our religions (although our level of adherence is more variable than I wish it were). And I don't want to have kids with a weak faith of any sort. Living a devout Christian life, regardless of the sect, is difficult with a solid foundation. It's impossible without one, in my opinion.



And the Catholic ones must raise them Catholic. Either these kids can't be the same people, or someone has to bend, like gurneyhalleck1 said.



Religion isn't a sticking point at this time in our relationship unless he wants more physical intimacy than is permitted or he wants to get me out of my parents house and into an apartment with him.

My frustration arose after I spent time reading a book that was recommended and that he gave me, based on Orthodox, Christian interfaith marriages, and said children's faith lives were an important topic for discussion that had the potential for variable outcomes. Then be just blurted out (admittedly in an already heated situation) that that wasn't the case. Those are mixed messages. If he wanted me to come away with the message "Orthodox or bust," he could have saved himself the money spent purchasing the book, and both us the time spent reading it by printing out a business card with these words. I just felt very misled by those two, very different sentiments.

But he admitted that he doesn't actually know, so I'm just trying to learn. Like you've said, I don't get to remarry if we were to have an unsuccessful marriage. I want to know everything I can upfront, and he doesn't have the answers to many questions. I agree that we need to decide if this is something that is feasible or if we need to break it off.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Seriously: contact the bishops (both the Catholic and the Orthodox) in question to get the diocesan policy and clarification. The whole thing may have to hinge on, alas, some casuistry.

At least in America, on the Catholic end, this is what the USCCB has said:

The specific directive int he OCA clergy guidelines is There is some room for wiggling. But talk to the ordinary. But I would just note that the Orthodox bishop has no authority over the Catholic party and the Catholic bishop has no authority over the Orthodox party, so, eg, the Catholic party should not have to make any assurances to the Orthodox church.

Speculation on the part of uninvolved parties, especially those with little experience in Orthodoxy (sorry, Kylissa) should nto be encouraged.

No need to apologize, gzt, although I don't see that what I suggested in either of my posts (which I identified as speculation) was any different from what you suggested, including the suggestion that she speak to clergy, except that I suggested the priest and you suggested the bishop.

 

[Anhelyna]

It seems to me that right at the beginning I suggested that both the OP and the other person involved should talk separately and together with the priests from both sides.

I know that in the RC Church the children of any marriage between Latin Catholics and Byzantine Catholics take their Rite from the father. This is very important in case any sons do become candidates for Ordination which has to be in the correct Rite [ there have been cases where this has not been known and Ordination has had to be delayed until there is either a Canonical Change of enrolment or an EC Bishop can ordain the Candidate.

 

[Dylan Michael]

It seems to me that right at the beginning I suggested that both the OP and the other person involved should talk separately and together with the priests from both sides.

I know that in the RC Church the children of any marriage between Latin Catholics and Byzantine Catholics take their Rite from the father. This is very important in case any sons do become candidates for Ordination which has to be in the correct Rite [ there have been cases where this has not been known and Ordination has had to be delayed until there is either a Canonical Change of enrolment or an EC Bishop can ordain the Candidate.

Yes, I know of a (former) seminarian who was baptised Chaldean (He's from Iraq). He was studying for the Latin-Rite diocese and he had to write letters to both the Latin and Chaldean bishop requesting formal change.

 

[LectioDivina]

Seriously: contact the bishops (both the Catholic and the Orthodox) in question to get the diocesan policy and clarification. The whole thing may have to hinge on, alas, some casuistry.

The specific directive int he OCA clergy guidelines is There is some room for wiggling. But talk to the ordinary. But I would just note that the Orthodox bishop has no authority over the Catholic party and the Catholic bishop has no authority over the Orthodox party, so, eg, the Catholic party should not have to make any assurances to the Orthodox church.

Thank you, this has been very helpful, and I appreciate it.

It seems to me that right at the beginning I suggested that both the OP and the other person involved should talk separately and together with the priests from both sides.

We have appointments to go meet with both priests, but after the latest outburst, I wanted to have an idea of what I would be getting myself into. I don't want to be taken completely by surprise during the meeting with his priest, and I wouldn't want to do that to my boyfriend either. For example, gurneyhalleck1's last post just reminded me that, even though we wouldn't be married in the Catholic Church, we would still have to take the NFP classes together. I've already explained that contraception has no place in my life, but I didn't think of the classes until I read his post. But I know that, so I am going to tell him so that he can hear it and be aware going in so that he can be as comfortable as possible going in. I was just seeking the same.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

Lectio Divina, I read this thread through once but a thought just occurred to me if I'm remembering my Roman Catholic Canon Law correctly (and I think I am), so sorry if this has been mentioned before.

At a marriage between two Roman Catholics of different Rites, (Say, a Roman Catholic and a Greek Catholic) one of the spouses is allowed to switch Rites to that of the other in order to make it easier for the couple. Now, if you're open to it (and you may not be, for a variety of valid reasons) you might be able to request to switching to the Sui Iuris church that corresponds to your husband's Orthodox Church (or to one like it if he just cares that he's Orthodox). Maybe not because it's not an exactly analogous situation, but it's close? Then your practices of both your faiths would be very, very similar, but your theologies would remain true to Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy. The switch might not take as long for you because you're possibly using the (from what I've heard) readily accepted "Marriage switch" reason for changing Rites.

There could be other reasons why this might now work (for example, there is very, very bad blood between some of the Eastern Catholics and their Orthodox cousins, or you might decide this would be even more confusing for any future kids because it's so similar) but it is another option.