Moving Forward with Catholic/Orthodox Relationship

[GregConstantine]

BTW, love is not love, bruh, love is God, and Jesus Christ is that Love incarnate. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and He established His Church which is His body, One, undivided, complete, and Apostolic.

Basic Christian theology, bruh.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

That there is only one true Church, and it is the Orthodox Church, is my right? Huh?

Sure, there are lots of ways we can all get along, so what?

Sincerely, I don't really want to go back and forth with you, G, if you are going to over-react in asserting what no one has said.

For as it is, the focus was on what the poster of the OP asked on marriage. And concerning your response, when one responds, they need to do so based on what was said. For no one said there was not One True Church and there's no comment mentioned at any point which can be quoted to mention that (and it was already noted multiple times last year when you brought up the same comment - as pointed out in #40). What was noted was that it is your right if you feel that Orthodox and Catholics should not marry - seeing that other Orthodox have long disagreed in the Church and have noted it for centuries. Reacting in false scenarios (or argument of emotion) does not deal with the facts, Bruh

BTW, love is not love, bruh, love is God, and Jesus Christ is that Love incarnate. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and He established His Church which is His body, One, undivided, complete, and Apostolic.

Basic Christian theology, bruh.

Seeing that the context was never about whether or not God is love (as that's a basic based on I John 4) or about what is the One/Undivided and Apostolic Church (as was already told to you in #40)), there is again never a need to bring in issues that have nothing to do with what others have said. Colloquialisms are a part of everyday conversations. People speaking to one another with the expression "Love is love" don't automatically mean that God is not the source of love - in the same way that saying "Billy is so on Fire right now!!!!!" (when expressing how someone is cool) doesn't mean that one forgets that God is an all-consuming fire according to Hebrews 12 and other passages.

That's basic in understanding of cultural phrases, Bruh - just as other Orthodox have done when noting the same phrase as well as not reacting in assuming someone's not saved because they are Catholic or warning against intermarriage with Catholics in the name of salvation.

And as said before, in light of the earlier comment made that made it as if salvation was in view with regards to their decision:

@GXG (G2)

No. Eastern Catholicism is exactly that, Roman Catholicism using the Byzantine liturgy. It is not a bridge to anywhere except to a body that is in schism from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. it would be of no avail to anyone and especially to their salvation to be told and encouraged to do such a thing.

If you feel as such, that is your view. It is not how all Orthodox have ever felt on the matter when it comes to Catholics - and there is never a need to spread fear on the issue if a Catholic or an Orthodox person wish to marry. If you have an issue with that, you can feel as you wish. But I'm not really focused on whether or not you have that. If you respond again, I'll address it once more and then leave it be since I don't want to distract from the issue in the OP.

 

[GregConstantine]

Did I say anyone who is Catholic is not saved? Please provide quotes, thank you!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hello. I am hoping to get some perspectives on a mixed relationship. I am a devout Roman Catholic and I have been dating a Russian Orthodox man for about 7 months now. We have a lot of fun together and he is very smart, handsome and funny.

We've started talking about marriage, but neither one of us is willing to convert. He talks about how he wouldn't pressure me to convert, but that would be ideal, and I quickly responded that it would be ideal for me if he were to convert, as well.

I took a comparative religion class in college and I have been very fortunate to be very well-versed in my Catholic faith. I know the differences between the two faiths and remain steadfast in my devotion to the Catholicism. He is not as educated in Orthodoxy as I am in Catholicism, and he doesn't know as much about Catholicism as I do about Orthodoxy, as just a shred of background information.

I'm primarily concerned about what happens when you bring kids into the picture (although knowing that we would have to get married in an Orthodox Church and forgo a Catholic Mass is already enough to break my heart). We would both take a vow to raise children as our respected religions. Not "I vow to raise children kind of ____." And that's the issue I have.

We both practice what we believe to be the truth. The thing about the truth is that it's uncompromising. That's what makes it truth. But it seems that no matter what, there is compromise to be made...

He says we wouldn't be the first to do this and promises that we will make it work. But I don't want my marriage and children's faith lives to be "something that works" I want these things to flourish and be sources of joy. I want to stay home and raise my kids and take them to daily Mass with me and celebrate Easter and teach them about saints that have influenced my life. How could I not?

He said that we could both find good people of our own religions to be with, but he would like us to be together. But I don't see how. He has talked about going to each other's services on Sunday, but I don't see the use. Neither of us has expressed any interest or openness to conversion. And I can't imagine how hard it would be on kids to watch their parents practice separate religions. That seems like it adds a ton of difficulty on the faith formation process.

If I may say..

There is actually an excellent review on the matter which may be of benefit to you that was recommended by another EO. It's from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, as seen here and here. The book is entitled "When You Intermarry: A Resource for Inter-Christian, Intercultural Couples, Parents and Families" by Father Charles Joanides

​

I was very thankful for what Father Joanides wrote since it is among the most practical and understandable insights I've seen on the issue of marriage.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

As an EC - I'm really concerned that, from what we have been told - admittedly limited - there's no real dialogue about this between them . Conversion has been mentioned - but it's been of the ' you should come to join my Church ' variety.

If conversion is to happen it has to be because the one 'moving' is utterly convinced that the other Church is the true Church .

Both these people have a lot to learn about each other and each other's Church.

I've also picked up [ could be wrong of course - I often am ] that he , the Orthodox member is possibly more of a cultural Orthodox than a regularly attending and well catechised Orthodox - and this is often the case on BOTH sides .

It may well be too early to be talking about marriage - but I really feel that both people need to talk with their priests - separately and together and each should be talking, on their own, with the priest of the opposite Church, so they can ask questions without the other person being present as it can be uncomfortable opening up about matters they consider very personal and private, as well.

Good wisdom to consider

 

[GregConstantine]

Greek Orthodox intermarrying is leading to a decline in numbers of Orthodox attending services and a decline in their children attending services. Someone earlier posted an excellent article here with the statistics to back this up, I don't remember the name of it, perhaps someone else does and can repost it.

The Greeks are big on this because for them, their Orthodoxy is a part of their culture, so I wouldn't go to anyone who encourages anyone to intermarry. Please don't come on this Orthodox site and do the same, thank you.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Greek Orthodox intermarrying is leading to a decline in numbers of Orthodox attending services and a decline in their children attending services. Someone earlier posted an excellent article here with the statistics to back this up, I don't remember the name of it, perhaps someone else does and can repost it.

The Greeks are big on this because for them, their Orthodoxy is a part of their culture,

If one has issue with the Greek Orthodox Church (or Greeks) one can do battle with the Greek Orthodox - or the Eastern Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox and a couple of others who do the same. Anyone can bring up stereotypes or myths when it comes to claiming things about the Greek Orthodox - just as there are statistics saying that Orthodoxy leads to atheism or that Russian Orthodox all support the Communist regime. It doesn't do anything, really. There are are many who never intermarried or came from intermarriage backgrounds and yet they left Orthodox Churches and ceased attending services as well. No one says, of course, that the Orthodox Church was the cause of their own personal choices nor do we argue that being Russian Orthodox leads to people not wishing to go to services - and thus, there's no need doing the same with those who are Greek Orthodox in Intermarriage families.

so I wouldn't go to anyone who encourages anyone to intermarry. Please don't come on this Orthodox site and do the same, thank you.

Like I said, one has the right to disagree with what they wish if it comes to their own sentiments on marriage being not reflected.

As said before, it doesn't change the fact that it is upon the couple - not you - on what they wish to do and other Orthodox have noted this. And whether encouraged by the Greek Orthodox Church or several others, it doesn't cease being "Orthodox" because it disagrees with your experience of such. Life moves on...

 

[GregConstantine]

Did I tell the couple to not get married?

1st you say I said all Catholics are not saved, I did not say that and you have yet to provide quotes to back that up, then, now you are saying that I told the couple not to get married. Really? Did you even read what I originally posted? Are you equating stating the teachings of the Church to be the equavalent of damning people to hell or telling people not to get married? My goodness! Provide the quotes, othewise, please stop.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Did I tell the couple to not get married?

1st you say I said all Catholics are not saved, I did not say that and you have yet to provide quotes to back that up, then, now you are saying that I told the couple not to get married. Really? Did you even read what I originally posted? Are you equating stating the teachings of the Church to be the equavalent of damning people to hell or telling people not to get married? My goodness! Provide the quotes, othewise, please stop.

Respectfully, as said before, there's no need responding past what others already said - specifically if it seems you are choosing to read into comments and assume what others were never advocating. There's never a need for that to occur (Proverbs 17:19 ) and I am not going to respond to it if you choose to do so. It's not respecting the author of the OP in what the focus was (marriage consideration) - and again, if you want to go back and forth, you'll have to do so on your own.

Truthfully, it seems you're really arguing with yourself and the perceptions you may be reading into what others said. And it's going to be ignored if it persists. I don't want to go on a tangent pursuing the things you brought up since it really doesn't deal with the OP subject, as you and you alone chose to focus on what others said in #37 when I simply noted agreement with shanethetheologian in his suggestion (though I wasn't addressing you). But again, out of respect for her, it's going to be ignored so as to not take things off track if you continue with the false assertions. Blessings

 

[GregConstantine]

Have you ever heard of Projection? You are accusing me of the very same things you are doing! Unbelievable!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hello. I am hoping to get some perspectives on a mixed relationship. I am a devout Roman Catholic and I have been dating a Russian Orthodox man for about 7 months now. We have a lot of fun together and he is very smart, handsome and funny.

We've started talking about marriage, but neither one of us is willing to convert. He talks about how he wouldn't pressure me to convert, but that would be ideal, and I quickly responded that it would be ideal for me if he were to convert, as well.

I took a comparative religion class in college and I have been very fortunate to be very well-versed in my Catholic faith. I know the differences between the two faiths and remain steadfast in my devotion to the Catholicism. He is not as educated in Orthodoxy as I am in Catholicism, and he doesn't know as much about Catholicism as I do about Orthodoxy, as just a shred of background information.

I'm primarily concerned about what happens when you bring kids into the picture (although knowing that we would have to get married in an Orthodox Church and forgo a Catholic Mass is already enough to break my heart). We would both take a vow to raise children as our respected religions. Not "I vow to raise children kind of ____." And that's the issue I have.

We both practice what we believe to be the truth. The thing about the truth is that it's uncompromising. That's what makes it truth. But it seems that no matter what, there is compromise to be made...

He says we wouldn't be the first to do this and promises that we will make it work. But I don't want my marriage and children's faith lives to be "something that works" I want these things to flourish and be sources of joy. I want to stay home and raise my kids and take them to daily Mass with me and celebrate Easter and teach them about saints that have influenced my life. How could I not?

He said that we could both find good people of our own religions to be with, but he would like us to be together. But I don't see how. He has talked about going to each other's services on Sunday, but I don't see the use. Neither of us has expressed any interest or openness to conversion. And I can't imagine how hard it would be on kids to watch their parents practice separate religions. That seems like it adds a ton of difficulty on the faith formation process.

I am planning on taking your insights seriously and passing them along to him, too. I don't have a strict request for your responses. Just anything that you would like to share or weigh in on with either/both of us would be greatly appreciated.

Father Charles Joanides of the Greek Orthodox Church did a good presentation in regards to intermarried couples that may be of benefit when it comes to considering the struggles that can be faced by such. One should never rush into marriage situations without considering all of the factors involved and the presentation did a good job of covering that as much as possible, IMHO.

Reaching Distantly Connected Intermarried Persons, Couples, and Their Families - YouTube

And of course, outside of that, you can go to the main hub where they have a lot of resources that can help you on your journey:

• Welcome to the Interfaith Marriage Website - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese Church of America

• Greek Orthodox intermarriage in the USA - Orthodoxy and the Word - Russian Orthodox Church Website

As Fr. Aris Metrakos noted in Fr. Aris Metrakos -- The Real Mixed Marriage Problem, "Marrying someone who is not Orthodox threatens only the faith of the faithless."

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

"bruh"

BTW, love is not love, bruh, love is God, and Jesus Christ is that Love incarnate. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and He established His Church which is His body, One, undivided, complete, and Apostolic.

Basic Christian theology, bruh.

 

[gzt]

It seems like a great way to alienate people is to strongly recommend to somebody interested in intermarriage that they not do intermarriage and tell them what a terrible idea it is. At that point, they may intermarry and you've already told them it is horrible. Fantastic. It's better to recognize, if the die is already cast, that you should suggest ways that make intermarriage work better and maximize the chance of continued adherence to the religion. Marriage of an Orthodox Christian to another sincere Christian who appreciates Orthodoxy is a much better outcome than many other common ones we are presented with.

 

[Dorothea]

Welcome to TAW!


As a realist/cynic of relationships don't you think that marriage is an early topic for only dating seven months? Granted, I don't know either one of you beyond another screen name on the Internet, but whenever I hear people talking about marriage with a relationship less than a year old I do get a bit cynical. Unless it is one of those known each other for years and years as friends situations; then it is a bit differently.

Hubby and I married after 11 months of dating and we didn't know each other before the initial meeting a few days before the dating came about. It was very odd, but it was obvious to us, God's hand was in it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hubby and I married after 11 months of dating.

I have a friend who was engaged before she was baptized, and that was less than a year as well.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hubby and I married after 11 months of dating and we didn't know each other before the initial meeting a few days before the dating came about. It was very odd, but it was obvious to us, God's hand was in it.

Love is love....can't stop it - some folks would say you all had a rather quick time of tying the knot. Glad God connected you together in Him

But indeed, there are many who were no where near the level others may deem acceptable when they got married. Some, as others have mentioned, weren't even baptized when they got married while the other person was deep into where they were - and some people change rather quick after marriage, as Sinbad the comedian once said before:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_a7fPNvOEw

 

[Dorothea]

I have a friend who was engaged before she was baptized, and that was less than a year as well.

Yes, it just depends on the people and what's going on in their lives, spiritually and otherwise, I think.

And to respond also to Gxg, instead of quoting and posting another post, when answering on this thread to the OP, I was speaking, of course, of my perspective and opinion. If at least one of the two people involved is willing to compromise, then the mixed marriage would work. My concern is the raising of children. If both spouses are set on baptizing and raising them in their respective faiths, I don't see where the compromise would happen.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

And to respond also to Gxg, instead of quoting and posting another post, when answering on this thread to the OP, I was speaking, of course, of my perspective and opinion..

To be clear, I don't think I missed where you were sharing your perspective. Did it come off like I said otherwise? If so, my apologies..

If at least one of the two people involved is willing to compromise, then the mixed marriage would work. My concern is the raising of children. If both spouses are set on baptizing and raising them in their respective faiths, I don't see where the compromise would happen

I think what often seems to be a focus is what the kids want respectively - as many want their kids to own their faith at some point....and even if one is willing to allow the other to have their kid raised in a faith not of their own, they know that at some point kids will make their own decisions.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It seems like a great way to alienate people is to strongly recommend to somebody interested in intermarriage that they not do intermarriage and tell them what a terrible idea it is. At that point, they may intermarry and you've already told them it is horrible. Fantastic. It's better to recognize, if the die is already cast, that you should suggest ways that make intermarriage work better and maximize the chance of continued adherence to the religion. Marriage of an Orthodox Christian to another sincere Christian who appreciates Orthodoxy is a much better outcome than many other common ones we are presented with.

That's true...

 

[katherine2001]

It seems like a great way to alienate people is to strongly recommend to somebody interested in intermarriage that they not do intermarriage and tell them what a terrible idea it is. At that point, they may intermarry and you've already told them it is horrible. Fantastic. It's better to recognize, if the die is already cast, that you should suggest ways that make intermarriage work better and maximize the chance of continued adherence to the religion. Marriage of an Orthodox Christian to another sincere Christian who appreciates Orthodoxy is a much better outcome than many other common ones we are presented with.

It's better than sugar-coating it. Maybe people need to see the truth of a mixed-faith marriage and at least make an informed decision as to whether they would be happy in the marriage. If they decide that it wouldn't work for them, it is probably better that they didn't go through with the marriage and make a big mistake. If they decide to get married, at least they know what they may ( or will) be dealing with. I had a friend who was engaged to an extremely jealous man and wasn't sure if she should marry him. She knew my mother had the same problem in her first marriage. She asked me to ask my mother for advice. My mom didn't usually give advice but she said that my friend had to realize that she wasn't going to change him and had to think long and hard about whether she could live with the jealousy. My friend ended up breaking off the relationship. Is pointing out the reality of a mixed-religion relationship really bad or is it telling them the truth so that they can make an informed decision as to whether they can live with and be happy with what they may have to live with if they get married?