Moving Forward with Catholic/Orthodox Relationship

[gurneyhalleck1]

Precisely what I keep thinking, knee-v! LOL

It's funny how many Orthodox I meet who used to be Catholic (I happen to be one!), but I have NEVER (even though I am sure there are some) met a Catholic who used to be Orthodox. These days, people who leave the CC for our communion stay! I think after living through the Vatican II mess, sex scandals, looking at the really bad theology behind the filioque and the weak papal arguments coupled with liturgical abuse and legalism, Orthodoxy is the ultimate breath of fresh air!

Or... you could always just become Orthodox.

 

[gzt]

I would just say that I know of many "mixed" marriages, and while they may have their difficulties, they can turn out quite well. I would also say that, generally, a Catholic and an Orthodox have an easier time than some other combinations and it's generally the case that the Catholic church is willing to have the children be raised Orthodox. The Orthodox doesn't like for the kids to be raised Catholic. But you must check with the local ordinary to confirm.

Mixed marriages between Catholic and Orthodox have their difficulties, but what's harder is mixing with Protestants or, worse, nominal believers or, worst of all, non-believers.

Anyway, I hope and pray for all the best for you two.

 

[E.C.]

Welcome to TAW!


As a realist/cynic of relationships don't you think that marriage is an early topic for only dating seven months? Granted, I don't know either one of you beyond another screen name on the Internet, but whenever I hear people talking about marriage with a relationship less than a year old I do get a bit cynical. Unless it is one of those known each other for years and years as friends situations; then it is a bit different.

That being said, I knew of one couple that was a mixed RC/EO marriage. The wife was Orthodox, the husband Roman Catholic and for decades they went to the RC mass on Saturday evening followed by Orthodox Vespers and then went to Orthodox Divine Liturgy on Sunday. This went on for decades until the husband decided to become Orthodox. I think what made their situation "easier" is the fact that they did not have children.

Pray. Pray. And Pray.

 

[Dorothea]

I have some blanket advice for this type of issue. Of course, I'm just a dude on the interwebs who really doesn't know you or your fella. That said, my advice is this: don't.

Yes, that is basically what I said above.

 

[RileyG]

I'm going to chime in, if it's ok. I hope this isn't borderline breaking the rules. I'm just giving my perspective on this. I hate to say this, but this sounds like a very messy situation...

[From a Catholic's perspective]
As a Catholic you must receive permission from your bishop to marry outside the Church and raise your children Catholic, otherwise you may not receive the Blessed Sacrament. Just my two cents.

I'm not sure what else to tell you- I would speak with your confessor about this.

 

[katherine2001]

It's pretty much the same for Orthodox. If he marries outside the Orthodox Church, he has excommunicated himself. I think we're as strict about the children being baptized and raised Orthodox.

You also have the fasting that is done in the Orthodox Church. We have 40 day fasting periods for Nativity and Lent (and then Holy Week which ends up being 7 days more), plus two other shorter fasting periods + Wednesdays and Fridays. For the Orthodox, that usually means no meat and no dairy. That can be hard for non-Orthodox to adjust to.

 

[RileyG]

It's pretty much the same for Orthodox. If he marries outside the Orthodox Church, he has excommunicated himself. I think we're as strict about the children being baptized and raised Orthodox.

You also have the fasting that is done in the Orthodox Church. We have 40 day fasting periods for Nativity and Lent (and then Holy Week which ends up being 7 days more), plus two other shorter fasting periods + Wednesdays and Fridays. For the Orthodox, that usually means no meat and no dairy. That can be hard for non-Orthodox to adjust to.

Thank You for your response!

I would add that the Catholic fast is very, very lenient, so someone who is a Catholic would not adjust well to an Orthodox fast.

 

[LectioDivina]

Welcome to TAW!


As a realist/cynic of relationships don't you think that marriage is an early topic for only dating seven months? Granted, I don't know either one of you beyond another screen name on the Internet, but whenever I hear people talking about marriage with a relationship less than a year old I do get a bit cynical. Unless it is one of those known each other for years and years as friends situations; then it is a bit different.

That being said, I knew of one couple that was a mixed RC/EO marriage. The wife was Orthodox, the husband Roman Catholic and for decades they went to the RC mass on Saturday evening followed by Orthodox Vespers and then went to Orthodox Divine Liturgy on Sunday. This went on for decades until the husband decided to become Orthodox. I think what made their situation "easier" is the fact that they did not have children.

Pray. Pray. And Pray.

1.) We're not trying to get married right now, but I think it's valuable to talk about whether or not it's feasible before we get attached enough to want to be married. I approach it from this angle: would it be easier for us to discuss our thoughts and positions one another now and walk away if we deem our differences to be irreconcilable 7-8 months in, or should we invest more time into this relationship, spend 8 more months together, decide we want to be married, and then have to have the conversation with the same outcome? I think the latter is more difficult. You have more heartache, and 8 months fewer that you could have spent bettering your future in other ways. IF that is the outcome, of course.

It's pretty much the same for Orthodox. If he marries outside the Orthodox Church, he has excommunicated himself. I think we're as strict about the children being baptized and raised Orthodox.

You also have the fasting that is done in the Orthodox Church. We have 40 day fasting periods for Nativity and Lent (and then Holy Week which ends up being 7 days more), plus two other shorter fasting periods + Wednesdays and Fridays. For the Orthodox, that usually means no meat and no dairy. That can be hard for non-Orthodox to adjust to.

Thank You for your response!

I would add that the Catholic fast is very, very lenient, so someone who is a Catholic would not adjust well to an Orthodox fast.

I am not a "lenient faster." I do my own fasting (I'm doing one in prayer against the Black Mass in Ohio later this month ) and take it very seriously. His fasting honestly baffles me a little bit. I do fasting and abstinence, which essentially means 2 small meals that equal one full meal and no snacking. I don't do meats, sweets, or alcohol either. He and his family don't do meat, eggs, or dairy when they fast, but they talk about all the ways they keep themselves full with breads, pastries and other foods. And there's no limit to the wine consumed. If I'm not hungry and wanting, I couldn't consider myself fasting...

 

[Anhelyna]

You really have a lot to learn about the Eastern Fasts - sadly I'll agree talking about the food we are not having does happen - we are all guilty of it.

Do you actually realise just how much of the year is during fast periods ?

Fasting by the way - well - we know what is the ideal , and not all can attain that. Our Spiritual Father / priest talks about fasting with us and makes suggestions as to what we should do. A great part of it is also not judging how others Fast . How we keep the fast is between God and us [ and of course our Spiritual Father].

 

[LectioDivina]

You really have a lot to learn about the Eastern Fasts - sadly I'll agree talking about the food we are not having does happen - we are all guilty of it.

Do you actually realise just how much of the year is during fast periods ?

Fasting by the way - well - we know what is the ideal , and not all can attain that. Our Spiritual Father / priest talks about fasting with us and makes suggestions as to what we should do. A great part of it is also not judging how others Fast . How we keep the fast is between God and us [ and of course our Spiritual Father].

That may very well be true that I have more to learn. My only exposure to Eastern fasting has been through his family and himself, which is also the primary contact I will continue to have if this relationship continues. To clarify, I'm not judging anyone's fast, and I'm not saying that talking about the food you can't have is necessarily wrong. I'm saying that our fasts just differ and that I am very capable of fasting. I just don't want there to be some sentiment that a RC couldn't possibly handle an Eastern fast or lax in their approach to fasting in general. Some are, but there are those in Eastern rites and in any faith that don't adhere to their principles as they should in any number of ways. I'm not lukewarm in any part of my faith, and that's how I came to seek advice for this relationship issue to begin with.

 

[gzt]

If people have been dating 7 months and they aren't starting to think about issues that could come up in marriage, they're doing themselves a disservice. I'm not at all saying they should immediately marry or anything like that, but that's definitely a point where you need to consider things that might matter.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I still enjoy the Orthodox Liturgy and I have been studying the theology and am drawn to it. I can't make the plunge. Maybe I am just lazy.

I was a faithful catholic for over 40 years of my life. And I don't mean just the externals. It was real…then. It just isn't there anymore. I've lived through too many changes and too many things I was taught are no longer teachings. It's just that it is embedded in me. I don't know how to let go. That's my personality. I hang on even when (maybe) I shouldn't?

well, I don't think we are talking about letting go, as much as finding the fullness. Orthodoxy, as many can attest, is the only Church that is truly Catholic.

anyways, just some thoughts. carry on.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

I am Orthodox, married to an Opus Dei Roman Catholic. It is very hard. Our faiths are really quite different and you should recognise that.

I believe that God has placed me where I am. Glory to Him. Potential marriage partners always have differences. If you marry an Othodox man, you will have one more difference--a big one. But God is gracious and it can work. I love my heterodox, RC wife.

Bottom line: avoid it if you can. If not, become Orthodox (yea!). If not, trust God.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Joseph Hazen, another poster on here, and I, have spoken on many occasions about how when we were considering leaving the Catholic Church, we thought we were leaving a treasure behind and thought it'd be so hard. Then we went to Orthodoxy and, holy smoke (literally! LOL), we found there was just way, way, way more to it. It's like being unwilling to leave the local used bookshop for the Library of Alexandria!

well, I don't think we are talking about letting go, as much as finding the fullness. Orthodoxy, as many can attest, is the only Church that is truly Catholic.

anyways, just some thoughts. carry on.

 

[GregConstantine]

"Joseph Hazen, another poster on here, and I, have spoken on many occasions about how when we were considering leaving the Catholic Church, we thought we were leaving a treasure behind and thought it'd be so hard. Then we went to Orthodoxy and, holy smoke (literally! LOL), we found there was just way, way, way more to it. It's like being unwilling to leave the local used bookshop for the Library of Alexandria!"

If you are saying this to try to convince the OP to changer her mind about Roman Catholicism and become Orthodox, I don't think it is very helpful to say it in that way. It doesn't really have anything to do with the topic anyways.

Generally what we've been saying is that while mixed marriages might work, and sometimes do, the best situation we should aim for is to avoid mixed marriages. As similar as RC and Orthodoxy might appear to some on the surface, if one looks deeper, one will find very significant differences. What I would suggest would be for both of you to learn as much as you can about each other's faiths before making any serious decisions about marriage. For example, both of you together could take an inquirer's class at a local Orthodox parish and take a catechumen class at a local RC parish. I would also encourage both of you to meet with a priest from both traditions on a regular basis. Perhaps both of you can set some time aside for this endeavor. For example, both of you could decide to set aside the next X number of months to seek out and learn about both traditions, and then when that time set aside is over, then you might be in a better place to make a decision.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Perhaps you both could study Eastern Catholicism. It might bridge the divide in your faiths and possibly even lead you to a consensus one way or another. I suspect this whole issue may be more serious for you than for him.

That's something I've seen work for others as well when it comes to finding common ground (something one can study themselves so that there is a least conversation points) - I have had friends and family in similar circumstances and I can relate to others coming from a mixed background, especially those who have Orthodox and Catholics in the family. One of the people I GREATLY respect/identify with is Jewish - her husband being Byzantine Catholic while she herself is Russian Orthodox (more shared here ) - and again, I've had friends and family who had the same experience. I myself grew up with it (as mentioned before) - and part of what has made the difference is knowing where you can let the Lord work on the other in time while still being faithful in knowing you can still have topics of discussion...

And of course, if nothing else, keeping LAUGHTER important is a big deal - if you cannot laugh or cry together, then that's when a lot of danger comes in. And I've seen a lot of couples who were vastly different and yet what made them best friends was knowing they both supported each other and could be laid back.

 

[GregConstantine]

@GXG (G2)

No. Eastern Catholicism is exactly that, Roman Catholicism using the Byzantine liturgy. It is not a bridge to anywhere except to a body that is in schism from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. it would be of no avail to anyone and especially to their salvation to be told and encouraged to do such a thing. The common ground for all of us is the revealed Truth who is the Person of Jesus Christ, and His Body which is one, holy, complete, and undivided, which for convenience sakes we call it "Orthodox". This is why I am encouraging this couple to seek out the truth for themselves by studying each tradition together as a couple and to come to that Truth in that way, not to go to some false sense of commonality.

 

[Anhelyna]

As an EC - I'm really concerned that, from what we have been told - admittedly limited - there's no real dialogue about this between them . Conversion has been mentioned - but it's been of the ' you should come to join my Church ' variety.

If conversion is to happen it has to be because the one 'moving' is utterly convinced that the other Church is the true Church .

Both these people have a lot to learn about each other and each other's Church.

I've also picked up [ could be wrong of course - I often am ] that he , the Orthodox member is possibly more of a cultural Orthodox than a regularly attending and well catechised Orthodox - and this is often the case on BOTH sides .

It may well be too early to be talking about marriage - but I really feel that both people need to talk with their priests - separately and together and each should be talking, on their own, with the priest of the opposite Church, so they can ask questions without the other person being present as it can be uncomfortable opening up about matters they consider very personal and private, as well.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

@GXG (G2)

No. Eastern Catholicism is exactly that, Roman Catholicism using the Byzantine liturgy. It is not a bridge to anywhere except to a body that is in schism from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Not really certain as to why this is being brought up for my agreeing with shanethetheologian on the issue - or why you chose to only focus on what I said rather than all others noting it.

Regardless, we already know what Eastern Catholicism is. It has never been just Roman Catholicism with Byzantine Liturgy and plenty of Eastern Catholics (as well as Eastern Orthodox) have noted that stereotype before when it comes to what actually goes down (more shared before here and here).

it would be of no avail to anyone and especially to their salvation to be told and encouraged to do such a thing. The common ground for all of us is the revealed Truth who is the Person of Jesus Christ, and His Body which is one, holy, complete, and undivided, which for convenience sakes we call it "Orthodox". This is why I am encouraging this couple to seek out the truth for themselves by studying each tradition together as a couple and to come to that Truth in that way, not to go to some false sense of commonality.

That is your right if you feel as such, Bruh.

Nonetheless, there're way too many marriages between Catholics and Orthodox to go with the mindset that relationship does not work - and that can also go for marriages where both began Catholic and one went Orthodox later on or ones where both were Orthodox and one later became Catholic. It can be difficult - but it is not insurmountable. How you approach the issue is what makes the difference.

People have weathered far worse situations than that (i.e. battles in marital faithfulness, diseases, poverty, etc.) and still glorified the Lord. As it is, no one said that the couple should not study together each tradition and thus there is no need to argue against what was never said. What has been noted is that every couple is different. Every relationship is different. And others have come together in time doing things differently rather than demanding that both either be Orthodox or both be Catholic before marriage. It's not a new reality and it's not going to change any time soon. But God has everyone on their own journey.

Love is love, Bruh. And love conquers all things (I Corinthians 13) - it is not as if one is marrying an unbeliever when they marry someone who is a Catholic, just as it's not the case that someone is automatically "saved" simply because they are Orthodox. Thus, to bring salvation into the issue early on is a bit of a false scenario and one that really has no right to be imposed on the couple since it's between the couple and God at the end of the day.

 

[GregConstantine]

That there is only one true Church, and it is the Orthodox Church, is my right? Huh?

Sure, there are lots of ways we can all get along, so what?