[MOVED] I want real honest opinions

[Avniel]

Avniel,

I'd be upset if a policeman had no grounds to arrest me and arrested me in front of my kids, too. I can understand why you are frustrated, even if I haven't experienced what you have, and it is good to get your perspective on it.

I do think a course in schools on how to interact with the police, rolled into a civics course would be a good start. Memorizing certain facts about search and seizure, and learning to point it out in a not-overly-aggressive manner, along with learning to comply could be helpful for all citizens. I've seen some YouTube videos of people who were successful at having the cops stay within their legal limitations by pointing out their own rights. One white guy was walking down the street with a legal firearm. he asked, "Do you suspect me of a crime" and went through the legal rights of owning a firearm. Eventually, they backed off. One of the comments was that if the guy was black, he'd have been face down on the ground. But I saw another video where a black man with a firearm made a citizens arrest and called the police. The white policeman shook his hand or have him a high five when it was over. I thought that was an image more people in America needed to see.

As far as 'thug' culture goes, and the male pride you are talking about, a lot of white people don't realize how much of that is bluster. I had a friend who knew all kinds of martial arts and had some military-like training on top of his dad, who was a founding member of a special forces team, teaching him martial arts. He sold real estate and he said some black youths started threatening to tear down his sign. He knew it was male ego and bluster, and he walked up to them and said they weren't going to do that because them he'd have to come out there and kick their..... Then they said, "He's cool." and backed down. Most whites don't threaten each other like as much as people in African-American subcultures. If you put a white police officer raised in the suburbs in the inner city around youths like that, he might not deal with it as well as a black police officer who was raised there. And a man with a gun, who feels threatened, if he's got the power of the state behind him, can get rather aggressive. As far as solutions go, if there were high school aged programs directed at preparing black youth to become police officers and increase the numbers, I could see how that could help. No matter what the color of the policeman's skin, people in the community need to see the police as a part of the community, out there to protect them from people who doing crimes. More blacks getting involved in law (and eventually being put on the bench), like you are doing, can also help.

What we as black people call "trying" or "testing" they saw he did martial arts and wanted to see if he was "about that life" he was and the respected his realness. The thing white americans don't know is most black american kids don't act like this. Most white american kids don't act like this. There is a select few that behave in these manners, typically suburb kids or kids that really are trying to fit in with a group. Real thugs aren't acting like that, real thugs are with their older cousins learning the streets from a front row seat. Kids walking around talking about "I am going to knock down your sign" are kids bothering people...being brats and probably have no discipline.

The problem is when police interact with me like I am one of those children that are walking around asking people can I tear down their sign. I remember a police officer cut me off crazy in the bronx, I honked my horn and he rolled down the window and said "if you feel a way hop out of the car" so you know I hopped out. A man had a gun to my head and robbed me I told him pull the trigger, I am not going to back down from anybody it's not breed in my personality. So when you encounter me and you're professional and you act the way my tax dollars tell you to I am cool. However if you make me revert to the think of "oh you're trying to play me like im a punk" it's going to be a problem because I am not a criminal. That's the thug culture that's the thug mentality......I don't care what you're going through, where I am, who we are with if you play me I am not going to back down. He challenged me, if a guy on the street did that what I would have answered it the same way. The end all the police officer didn't want to fight, he asked me why I jumped out of the car and I told him because I wanted to fight. At that point he pushed me and I placed my guard up and an officer stepped in between us.......then drug him away I still wanted the fight he promised me when he asked me if I felt a way.

No matter if you have a school program or not it will not work unless you change the police officers professionalism. I don't care if it's a black police officer or a white police officer if you approach me like a man doing your job I am going to respect you like a man doing their job. However anyone approaches me as a little boy, I have children to play with, badge or no badge no matter what. I remember when I was 9 years old my father bought me a hat I was walking with someone fresh from jamaica stole it with a box cutter. My father told me I couldn't come home until I got my hat back. I found the kid, I found he couldn't fight, I got my hat back.

That's the attitude that get's people shot, there's a certain arrogance to that. Has nothing to do with if you are a criminal or not it's how submissive you can be with some of them. As a man I have a problem submitting to anybody, cultural as a jamaican american I have a problem submitting to another man when they are abusing the power of their authority.When you answer an aggressive police officer it takes away their power and places them on edge, the reality is it's a result of their own insecurities. The reality these police officers are scared the aggression is a defense, when ever I have a rude cop he's probably more scared of me than I am of him. However I ain't never been a punk. Imagine that mentality, having to be force to bow down to police officers a few times every two or three year every now and than 7 or 8 times per year for 3 years. You build up hatred for them, you pass that off to your children who then have their own run ins with the police..........that never resulted ever in an arrest( I have never been arrested).......

Your class would work if you had people that were willing to swallow their pride and be treated less than a person every now and than. You teaching students how to interact with the police is like teaching them how to respond to being oppressed. I don't want to learn how to deal with a irate police officer, particularly when I am not a criminal and have never been arrested. I want to tell him about his mother and what would happen if he didn't have a badge.

My grandfather told me don't let anyone push you around you have to be a man for your family you're entire family for back and present. I am a man, a human being, I need to be treated like that before I get slammed on the ground.

 

[Dave-W]

He said that a lot of black youths are disrespectful toward police officers and if they would go along with the policeman's instructions in a respectful manner, then these things wouldn't happen. One of the shootings allegedly happened when a very large 17-year-old who had recently robbed a store allegedly rushed a police officer, and the officer was following his training. For me, that's not worth rioting over.

As a white male, I do not really have a "dog in this fight" so to speak, but I do have an opinion. As a youth during the race riots of the late 1960s, I came to look on black police officers as traitors to their own home communities. (and there were VERY FEW black police back then)

Others said the lack of police officers of color was part of the problem. So in the following decades, Blacks were specifically recruited for police work (along with Hispanics and Asian Americans). Now that we have a fairly good racial balance in police forces, serious problems persist. I find myself going back to my original opinion that they are traitors.

 

[Avniel]

As a white male, I do not really have a "dog in this fight" so to speak, but I do have an opinion. As a youth during the race riots of the late 1960s, I came to look on black police officers as traitors to their own home communities. (and there were VERY FEW black police back then)

Others said the lack of police officers of color was part of the problem. So in the following decades, Blacks were specifically recruited for police work (along with Hispanics and Asian Americans). Now that we have a fairly good racial balance in police forces, serious problems persist. I find myself going back to my original opinion that they are traitors.

Black police officers are some of the more nasty officers when dealing with other blacks. I think they are traitors i won't shake a black police officers hand in church. In NYC a good deal of the Dominican police officers do let cultural accepted ideas leak into their job performance.

The issue is the black culture isn't respected. Blacks as a whole believe the police hate them, I mean sure there are probably some black men that care about the community in blue. A lot of black police officers either have a family history(good cops) or they have a personal history that developed a desire(bad). Black people in America have an issue with self hatred. It doesn't matter that there are black cops it matters what black cops you hire.


I hate when black cops pull me over its like they have to prove "I'm not black like you." Then they go all the way above and beyond to make sure you understand that.

Michael brown should have gotten beat up. A 16 year vs a police officer shouldn't result in a dead body when the 16 year old is unarmed.......that guy was scared of a 16 year old. He shouldn't be on the force, the old black cops from the 60s and 70s they are agreeing with this.

A black cop is more hated in the community than a black drug dealer.

 

[LinkH]

Avniel,

I'm thinking of a class that would teach people to cite Supreme Court decisions and state codes about search and seizure, pulling people over in unmarked vehicles, too.

That's an entertaining story about the cop that wanted to fight and hi partner separated you. I don't live where you do. People don't honk much around here. I think I've heard it a few times in the past five years, mostly from my own horn. I probably wouldn't have honked at a cop unless I felt like he was going to hit my car. I don't think I'd have gotten out of the car over that. If you wanted to preserve your pride, when he said that, you could have said, "Grow up!" out your window and left it at that. He was acting immature.

I think you ought to shake black policemen's hands at church. If we are to love one another as brethren, that includes the black cops. If you want a world where black cops treat black citizens with respect, and where all cops treat all citizens with respect, someone has to start making changes. You may not be able to change the whole society, but you can do your part and start building bridges. The Bible teaches us to forgive and not hold grudges.

 

[Avniel]

Avniel,

I'm thinking of a class that would teach people to cite Supreme Court decisions and state codes about search and seizure, pulling people over in unmarked vehicles, too.

That's an entertaining story about the cop that wanted to fight and hi partner separated you. I don't live where you do. People don't honk much around here. I think I've heard it a few times in the past five years, mostly from my own horn. I probably wouldn't have honked at a cop unless I felt like he was going to hit my car. I don't think I'd have gotten out of the car over that. If you wanted to preserve your pride, when he said that, you could have said, "Grow up!" out your window and left it at that. He was acting immature.

I think you ought to shake black policemen's hands at church. If we are to love one another as brethren, that includes the black cops. If you want a world where black cops treat black citizens with respect, and where all cops treat all citizens with respect, someone has to start making changes. You may not be able to change the whole society, but you can do your part and start building bridges. The Bible teaches us to forgive and not hold grudges.

Of course my father had his times where he went off on police officers as he became older he became more mellow. I'm a father now so I tend to turn away not because I have to but because my pride isn't worth my daughter growing up without a father. However my pride at 23 certainly was.

When you do know the law you have to be careful if you lack court power. Police officer can become increasingly irate when you do not resist but you don't give them promision. That phrase will get you beat up.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes, true however the general incident. You have an entire group of people saying charge the officer. In Zimmerman's situation why are people talking about police brutality?

There is a certain nasty interaction there 6 times out of 10. People are tired of that interaction. The lady that hung herself, she probably did but we automatically blamed the police officer because as we as black people recognize "theeeeeeey do the most." A lot of the time it's illegal, I've heard of police sneaking into people's home.

How much of the problem do you think relates to your own perception? What about the perception you were raised with?

Is it accurate? Or has it skewed how you see things?

 

[Dave-W]

I am not sure why this thread is in the Marriage forum, but whatever.

Did you read the story about the white detective that refused to pull his gun on an unarmed black man he pulled over for a routine traffic deal? The man got out of the car, grabbed the detective's gun and pistol whipped him to unconsciousness. There was an audience who took phone pics of the incident which went up on fb and twit.

"Pistol whipped his a** to sleep," wrote one bystander. Another one offered the officer milk and cookies for his "nap time."

Is this what we want? It certainly seems to be so.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/13/us/alabama-birmingham-police-detective-pistol-whipped/

 

[Dave-W]

In Zimmerman's situation why are people talking about police brutality?

Zimmerman was a "neighborhood watch" guard and was acting in that capacity. To many people that is the same thing as police. A "rent-a-cop" as it were.

And IMO the outpouring of reactions really have little to do with the specifics of each incident. It is more a shared outrage for years and decades of unjust treatment. The specific incidents are just "the straw that broke the camel's back."

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

...he said that what you are seeing in the media is not really an accurate reflection of the reality there. You are only seeing what media wants you to see, and that is often one-sided. Before you come to any conclusions of race issues there, make sure you have all the facts from all sides of a situation.

Exactly. Because of the case with Zimmerman, it has made blacks feel more cautious about every black death. The media certainly skews things because thats the point of them. They report on stories and skewing stories helps boost their ratings. So when another black man gets killed by a cop, it makes news for them. Men (whether white, black, latino...etc) are killed all the time by cops. But they don't make the news because right now the media is focused on white cop on black deaths. Does this mean all black deaths by cops are intentional? Of course not. Sometimes they were innocent, other times they were guilty. Just as with whites that are killed. Bad cops do exist, but 99% of cops are not bad. If not for the media with the Zimmerman case, odds are there wouldn't be racial tensions starting up to begin with.

For every black person that says "#BlackLivesMatter" I see another black person saying something else like that black lives don't matter until we (blacks) stop killing each other first. Or that shouldn't all lives matter. Or some that say the black culture sometimes can fit the stereotypes that they are given. Such as listening to rap about "blasting" people, gangs, fights, sex...etc. My mothers friend who was born in Alabama can't stand what she sees today on the news because she said where she lived blacks (like her) tended to always keep on passing down a false reality of how things were between blacks and whites. So you are raised thinking the white world is out to get you. She said thankfully her parents were not like that. So she did great in school, started a real estate buisness...etc because she never lived a life of thinking anyone was trying to suppress her. Again, it doens't mean there are not whites that don't like blacks (and visa versa).

Me? I notice those that have these "worlds out to get me" feelings seem to do it the more close they live to urban environments (aka inner city). So maybe that plays a role in it. Alot of times I noticed intercity people tend to live more poor lives (white or black). So its why I never want to live in a inner city.

 

[dysert]

Lately on the news I just notice more and more black men dying. Truthfully it's either by the police or it's by the brother that looks just like you. I feel like to a degree in America either you stay who you are, who you were raised to be, the person you love or you conform and become a different person. Even then you are still subjected to occasional police interactions that are demoralizing and horrible. At the very least unprofessional and emasculating typically.

A great deal of my friends have started taking a good deal of international jobs. A good deal of them mentioned some countries more racist some countries far less racist.

It's not just that, I look at the images the media project to these black boys and girls to be. Manipulating a culture to gain dollars but destroying the people's entire self image. Confirming the slavish mentalities passed from ancestor to ancestor. I don't want that for my children.

Opinions? Questions? I'm really thinking about this the deeper I get into my studies

You want real honest opinions? Here's one. Racism is real and it's not going away. People "like" others who are most like themselves, and they "dislike" others who are least like themselves. Unfortunately, I think that's human nature and will not change.

As for what the media represents, ignore them. They're in business to sensationalize so they'll always hype up the conflicts.

The solution to your particular situation, I think, would be to get out of the environment you live in and try living in a more racially diverse setting where people are used to seeing others who are not so much like themselves. The more we live with unlike people and realize they're basically the same as we are, the better off we all are.

 

[Dave-W]

Racism is real and it's not going away. People "like" others who are most like themselves, and they "dislike" others who are least like themselves. Unfortunately, I think that's human nature and will not change.

That was a survival trait when we all lived a tribal existence several thousand years ago. Villages were pretty much genetically homogeneous and if someone looked different, they were there to steal your possessions, your land or your people.

Instincts do not change when social situations change.

 

[Avniel]

I am not sure why this thread is in the Marriage forum, but whatever.

Did you read the story about the white detective that refused to pull his gun on an unarmed black man he pulled over for a routine traffic deal? The man got out of the car, grabbed the detective's gun and pistol whipped him to unconsciousness. There was an audience who took phone pics of the incident which went up on fb and twit.

"Pistol whipped his a** to sleep," wrote one bystander. Another one offered the officer milk and cookies for his "nap time."

Is this what we want? It certainly seems to be so.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/13/us/alabama-birmingham-police-detective-pistol-whipped/

It's on marriage forum because it's about raising my family in an enviorment more conducive for the growth of the black family.

I think the reality is that was a bad situation but at the same time when you interact with me like that i don't care about your fear because now you're affecting me.

Let's be honest the police department is poorly trained. How are you a police officer and you allow another man to take your gun? How are you a police officer and you're scared to fight teenagers? You should not be a police officer.

I wouldn't have jumped in, I probably wouldn't have broken it up. Those comments come from a place of hatred for the police department. The more I travel, the more I interact with other blacks, the technology exposes what I know to be my truth I understand it's true for most of the community. There is an officer in my area called butt man, we've called him butt man for years since he was a blue and white......we call him butt man.......no gloves............on the street............then when I see new stories about women having this done at a parking lot. It validates my hatred even more for the police department. If you went to my neighborhood and you saw that I doubt people would stop them.

 

[Pink Spider]

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[Dave-W]

The solution to your particular situation, I think, would be to get out of the environment you live in and try living in a more racially diverse setting where people are used to seeing others who are not so much like themselves. The more we live with unlike people and realize they're basically the same as we are, the better off we all are.

In general - yes. But at the same time by living in a more culturally diverse situation, we DIMINISH that very diversity. Let us take paints for example. You can have a brilliant red and a stark white and they can be striking when next to each other in a painting or on a wall. But if you start to mix them, you eventually get a bland pink that carries none of the boldness of either.

How do we get to diverse groups with different music, language, viewpoints, and skin tones to honor and respect and even embrace each other without diluting their uniqueness? After all, all God-created distinctions are for MUTUAL BLESSING. Dilute the distinction, and eliminate the blessing.

 

[Dave-W]

Let's be honest the police department is poorly trained. How are you a police officer and you allow another man to take your gun?

Good point.

How are you a police officer and you're scared to fight teenagers? You should not be a police officer.

Probably the same way you can be an Israeli soldier and scared of being pelted by rocks from a group of teen and pre-teen Palestinians and under orders to not interfere with them in any way. The rocks they hurl can break bones or cause internal injuries.

 

[Cearbhall]

A great deal of my friends have started taking a good deal of international jobs. A good deal of them mentioned some countries more racist some countries far less racist.

I've read a few interesting pieces about how more and more families in certain parts of Europe are adopting African American babies because they have better odds of success there and face less discrimination. We always think of ourselves as a country that saves children from problems in other countries, but sometimes it's the other way around. Here's one.

 

[nightflight]

Michael brown should have gotten beat up. A 16 year vs a police officer shouldn't result in a dead body when the 16 year old is unarmed.......that guy was scared of a 16 year old. He shouldn't be on the force, the old black cops from the 60s and 70s they are agreeing with this.

Seriously?

 

[trunks2k]

Lately on the news I just notice more and more black men dying.

I question this premise. While yes, black men are killed at a higher rate - given the constant drop in violent crime since the 90's, I question that "more and more" are dying. Especially when compared to the 90s.

 

[Avniel]

Zimmerman was a "neighborhood watch" guard and was acting in that capacity. To many people that is the same thing as police. A "rent-a-cop" as it were.

And IMO the outpouring of reactions really have little to do with the specifics of each incident. It is more a shared outrage for years and decades of unjust treatment. The specific incidents are just "the straw that broke the camel's back."

Right when you dig deeper into the outrage its personal.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Remember too media is more common now thanks to technology. So 50 years ago odds are you wouldn't hear/see a cop shooting someone on tv/online (well online wasn't around) really. But in todays word cameras are everywhere. So our minds forget that in the real world people are killed all the time, and we only notice that "Hey another video of a black man being killed by a cop! This is bad!" because of the internet especially. Though as stated whites and everyone else is killed by a cop many times a day. But those don't make the news because the media like when thinks look worse then they are because people will watch them more. AKA showing videos of a black man being shot by cops is far more views for them then showing a white man being killed by a cop. Because that would make things sound more even (despite the fact that no one should be shot/killed by a cop unless need be).

That aside for every video someone records of a black man being shot by a cop, I can post links to 100 videos of a black man fighting and often times killing another black man. There are even some sites made by black men that promote showing your best videos you can record of blacks beating each other up. Again not saying whites don't kill each other, asians don't kill each other...etc. Just stating the main death of blacks is usually related to another black man. Which is why I will be against the BLM movement until they realize lives won't matter until they fix the lives being lost withing their own communities by each other.