More than 700 die during Hajj :(

[Fireinfolding]

Catherineanne,

You wrote (yours being bolded)

What a thoroughly distasteful post.

Which words exactly were so distasteful?

Treading upon one another =/= hundreds of innocent men, women and children being crushed to death in a crowd.

The living treading upon other living is what has made them dead (even as they are now) I agree with this.

Jesus was addressing the living multitude trampling on other living also.

In Mat 5:13 it speaks of being trampled upon also, and there it is concerning those who have lost their savour (in a whole other sense) saying, Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost (( his )) savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. (and in 2 Cr 2:14) shows its the savour of ((his )) knowledge, whereas Paul says, to the one (in this thing) we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And asks, who is sufficient for these things?

There are different contexts of treading underfoot shown.

Imo, treading upon = what you are doing to the dead in this post.

You are entitled to your opinion but you havent shown where I have tread upon dead people by mentioning what Jesus said about treading on others.

Where is the love? Without Christ's love, your words are just a discordant noise, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Which words exactly are you finding fault with and find to be without Christ's love, a discordant noise, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing?

Make no mistake, God loves the least person who died; the most sinful and insignificant of all, just as much as he loves either you or me.

No where in my post did I say God did not so love the world, or people, or that he has pleasure in the death of the wicked, so I dont see where there is a mistake

And it is he who decides their eternal fate, not me, not you, nor anyone else.

Which is why I quoted Jesus Christ's own words and your feathers became ruffled.

 

[AtWhatCost]

How morally bankrupt of you to say that it is more tragic that these people didn't believe as you do as opposed to how tragic it is that they lost their lives.

Why? Living life as long as possible, clinging to life, being ever fearful that life will end just isn't something Christians focus on. The goal is eternity worshiping God. We already started. There is no end to the worshiping, only an end to this corruptible. decaying body.

Far worse to end without knowing the true purpose of lief. (Again, in case you didn't catch it, the purpose is to worship God eternally.)

 

[Catherineanne]

We all have our own opinions Catherineanne, I saw nothing distasteful quoting the Lord Jesus Christ's words concerning treading upon others or Jesus saying ( even in the context of the tower of Siloam falling and killing the eighteen) " think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? And again, I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I find Jesus words to be loving

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

You will have to show me which words exactly are unloving

All of it. A thoroughly nasty post.

Without love, the gospel is meaningless noise.

 

[DogmaHunter]

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Quoting a bible verse doesn't change anything about the fact that the comment was as morally bankrupt as it gets.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Why?

If you have to ask, you are just as morally bankrupt.

WHY????

Because hundreds of people are DEAD. People with families. Fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, nephews.

And the best thing the dude could come up with in his comment was the "real tragedy" was that these dead people didn't believe as he did.

It's morally bankrupt in every possible way.

Living life as long as possible, clinging to life, being ever fearful that life will end just isn't something Christians focus on.

You mean fundamentalists. ISIS and al-qaida types don't focus on it either.

Far worse to end without knowing the true purpose of lief. (Again, in case you didn't catch it, the purpose is to worship God eternally.)

Whatever you say man.

Meanwhile, thousands are mourning these deaths and you are spitting on their graves.

Perhaps you can go the way of the Phelps and go picketting at their funerals or something.

 

[DogmaHunter]

From a Christian faith standpoint, the death of the soul and the eternal separation from Christ is FAR worse than physical death. It is not morally bankrupt to understand that to a Christian, the greater tragedy is that they died not knowing their savior.

Christianity IS based on faith. John 3:16 says that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. That is the gospel in a nutshell.

Please remember that you are on a Christian forum, and while you may not be a Christian yourself, and while you may disagree with what Christians believe, you are still expected to respect those beliefs. Saying we are morally bankrupt is a quick way to get the attention of staff members (such as myself).

I can not and will not respect the idea that what people believe on "faith" is more important then their safety, security, health and life. And I never will. And, by the way, neither does the constitution of the country that you live in.

Don't mistake not respecting an idea with not respecting people.

I never called "all christians" morally bankrupt. In fact, in this very thread, several christians have backed me up on this.

When someone expresses the idea that it was a "greater tragedy" that these people didn't believe as he did as opposed to that hundreds lost their lives, what other conclusions can I draw?

Please tell me.

Ban me for that if you must.
The horror, right? Thinking that hundreds of people losing their lives is a greater tragedy then the fact that they were muslims....

What about the respect for these people and the families they leave behind?

Let's apply this "logic" to another instance....
6 million jews died in the holocaust...
Was it also a greater "tragedy" that these people weren't christians?
Was that more traggic then the biggest mass murder in recorded history?

If the logic applies to these muslims, then the same must go for those 6 million jews, right?

 

[Fireinfolding]

All of it. A thoroughly nasty post.

Without love, the gospel is meaningless noise.

I dont believe Jesus was nasty saying that in the context of the tower falling on those eighteen to those who felt they were worse sinners

But people believe Jesus is nasty so it does not surprise me

 

[Fireinfolding]

Quoting a bible verse doesn't change anything about the fact that the comment was as morally bankrupt as it gets.

You believed the other persons comments were morally bankrupt and I do not, and even the words of Jesus Christ I posted, I dont believe Jesus would change his words to suit others unbelief , but again, others believe he would

You are entitled to your opinion.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

This seems to be an ongoing issue. To many people in to small of a space. My thoughts to those who have lost loved ones in this tragedy.

I think it's more about management (including crowd control).

This is horrendous. First the crane collapse, now this. The authorities responsible for organising Hajj have some serious questions to answer. It's not like they didn't know how many people were going to come this year. There clearly needs to be better measures in place to prevent this kind of tragedy.

Exactly this.

And they died not knowing Christ.

But in our perspective, they did know him and his fundamental, true message.

Why do all muslims who go on the hajj go at the same time? Is there a requirement for this?

Hajj can only be done on certain days of a certain month (i.e. the 8th-12th days of the month of Dhul Hijjah).

Maybe a more possible solution is to limit the number of times people can go on Hajj.

They have a quota system in place already.

I wonder how much money the Saudi's make from the millions of pilgrims that do it every year.

"Economists have estimated the Kingdom’s revenues from Haj and Umrah services in 2012 at more than SR 62 billion ($ 16.5 billion), 10 percent up from 2011 figures. They also said that Haj revenue accounted for three percent of the country’s gross domestic product (GDP)."

Revenue from pilgrims make 3% of Saudi GDP

...See, wouldn't you think that the prophet of an almighty god would see something like this coming and say, "Requiring every Muslim in the world to touch this stone once in their lifetime is a bad idea, let's find something else"? Seems kinda silly if you ask me. It's sort of like requiring that once a year, every member of your religion has to fit into a certain chapel - boy, if your religion ever gets big, you're in trouble.

It is not required to touch the stone. It is required to make the pilgrimage once in your life if you're able to (i.e. have the money to, are healthy enough, etc.).

I had always felt it was strange considering Saudi Arabia's, main sect, wahhabist anti-idolatry stance. Doesn't that stone borderline that?

Nope.

 

[AtWhatCost]

If you have to ask, you are just as morally bankrupt.

WHY????

Because hundreds of people are DEAD. People with families. Fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, nephews.

And the best thing the dude could come up with in his comment was the "real tragedy" was that these dead people didn't believe as he did.

It's morally bankrupt in every possible way.




You mean fundamentalists. ISIS and al-qaida types don't focus on it either.



Whatever you say man.

Meanwhile, thousands are mourning these deaths and you are spitting on their graves.

Perhaps you can go the way of the Phelps and go picketting at their funerals or something.

If you don't want to understand Christianity, why are you on a Christian site? I'm not much into quantum physics, so I don't got to quantum physic sites to pretend I'm holier than thou. Just seems reasonable.

 

[DogmaHunter]

If you don't want to understand Christianity, why are you on a Christian site? I'm not much into quantum physics, so I don't got to quantum physic sites to pretend I'm holier than thou. Just seems reasonable.

Plenty of christians show some respect for the dead. Some of them in this thread.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

Isn't it possible to make a hajj to Medina instead? It might help things to encourage folks to go there instead?

No, we can only do Hajj in Makkah.

What's the stance of Islam on the matter? Do they count as martyrs?

I don't know if they'll necessarily be counted as martyrs but those who die during Hajj will wake up on the Day of Judgement saying, "Here I am at your service, O Allaah, here I am. Here I am at Your service, You have no partner, here I am. Verily all praises, blessings, and sovereignty belong to You. You have no partner."

Hajj also expiates all of a person's past sins so God-willing those who died met their Lord without a single sin to their names.

They have used their "no idolatry" stance by destroying plenty of historical buildings in saudi arabia. I don't know if they did it, but they were in some hot water when they tried to knock down their prophet's home to build a palace for themselves on top of it a couple years ago.

The Prophet's (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) house is in Masjid an-Nabawi in Madinah because Prophets are buried where they die (and his house was originally close/connected to the masjid). As this masjid expanded, it ended up including the grave of the Prophet's which is the issue since the Prophet said not to make our mosques like graves and not to be like those disbelievers who made the graves of their prophets into places of worship (also brings up the issue of people trying to pray to the Prophet which is unIslaamic).

While Saudi Arabia has a lot of bad points, I don't think they'd try to demolish something of the Prophet's to build a palace for themselves.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

The Prophet's (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) house is in Masjid an-Nabawi in Madinah because Prophets are buried where they die (and his house was originally close/connected to the masjid). As this masjid expanded, it ended up including the grave of the Prophet's which is the issue since the Prophet said not to make our mosques like graves and not to be like those disbelievers who made the graves of their prophets into places of worship (also brings up the issue of people trying to pray to the Prophet which is unIslaamic).

While Saudi Arabia has a lot of bad points, I don't think they'd try to demolish something of the Prophet's to build a palace for themselves.

Ah ok Here is where I read it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-Prophets-home-make-way-imams-residence.html

I do not know how accurate daily mail is. so..

http://www.crescent-online.net/2014...e-prophets-house-in-makkah-4729-articles.html

That was last November, and I haven't seen any follow up articles so I guess they stopped their plans?

 

[Tallguy88]

ADMIN HAT ON

Just a reminder that this thread is not in the Theology area of the site, so discussions of theology will be considered off topic. Stick to the news and human aspect of this story please.