More on that flag controversy

[WarriorAngel]

Im from the North and i dont see it as anything but a flag.

 

[Red Fox]

Here are some thoughts I have on the flag debate. The KKK also waves the American flag. So should that be banned, too? Or does this photo of a KKK member look any less racist without the confederate flag? What's the likelihood that the guy in the photo would see the light and give up his racism if the confederate flag gets banned?

In my eyes, the American rag is no different to me than the confederate rag. Both represent hatred, racism, oppression, and slavery.

The only difference that I see between the two rags is that the American rag also represents genocide and massive destruction of my people and culture.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Despite my ancestry in America - i see the flag as always learning from the past but standing together as a united people today.

 

[Tallguy88]

Well, in my opinion, and based on my experiences dealing with discrimination as a Native American, that rag most definitely represents hatred and racism to me.

You've said that about the American flag too, if I recall correctly. At least you are honest enough to be consistent about it. Most refuse to see any similarity.

 

[Lavendar Frog]

The Dixiecrats loved that flag

This Christian was born in the north in one of the so called slave states. Half my family are from the south and that half happen to b native tribal people. I love that flag. And just because people say it means what they need it to mean when they say it's racist, doesn't make it true.

Though there is something to be said for it being racist to want to eradicate a historic states flag because it means something to white people and colored people who proudly fought beneath its furl.

 

[topcare]

It doesn't represent hatred.

Agreed. A symbol represents what people want it to. People who want to hate will choose any symbol to say it represents hate

 

[mark46]

Agreed. A symbol represents what people want it to. People who want to hate will choose any symbol to say it represents hate

The "reason" for flags is that they DO stand for something. When the battle flag is taken from the museums and cemeteries in order to be the flag of segregation in the 1960's, it was because the flag meant something to the governors and others who used the flag as their symbol.

It is downright silly to believe that I should carry and wave any symbol and its meaning is only what it means to be personally. The issue is communication.

As someone pointed out, he once raised the Soviet flag to honor those tens of millions of Russians that died so that we might be free. He STOPPED when he realized that this was NOT the message that he was conveying.

 

[kit]

Here are some thoughts I have on the flag debate. The KKK also waves the American flag. So should that be banned, too? Or does this photo of a KKK member look any less racist without the confederate flag? What's the likelihood that the guy in the photo would see the light and give up his racism if the confederate flag gets banned?

Or what about the blacks who support the confederate flag?

I don't know much about the confederate flag since I'm not from the South. I'm just asking some questions.

And, because I don't know much about it, I haven't formed a solid opinion on it one way or the other.

Hitler was a 1/4 Jewish

Finding a token doesn't disprove the rule.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Hitler was a 1/4 Jewish

Finding a token doesn't disprove the rule.

That doesn't answer the questions that I asked in my post.

 

[MikeK]

Here are some thoughts I have on the flag debate. The KKK also waves the American flag. So should that be banned, too? Or does this photo of a KKK member look any less racist without the confederate flag? What's the likelihood that the guy in the photo would see the light and give up his racism if the confederate flag gets banned?

Or what about the blacks who support the confederate flag?

I don't know much about the confederate flag since I'm not from the South. I'm just asking some questions.

And, because I don't know much about it, I haven't formed a solid opinion on it one way or the other.

I'm not calling for any flags to be banned, not even the flags of racist traitors.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I'm not calling for any flags to be banned, not even the flags of racist traitors.

I don't think you should generalize like that about everyone who has a confederate flag since if you are wrong about even just one person it is bearing false witness. I'm sure you know that being a traitor is considered a very serious crime that is punishable by death, so it's like you are saying that they deserve death. And if simply owning a confederate flag makes someone a traitor then anyone who owns a British flag would be a traitor, too.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I'm pleased that you're allowing me to remain free, Mark. Many thanks! smh. Of course I'm free to believe what I want, though I'm sure with time that will change as well. The thought police are doing overtime.

I'm not saying what will decide an election. All I know is that I'm a Christian. I want to live in a nation guided by Judeo-Christian principles just as this great country has always had until recent times when your party and the secular humanists have become a morality juggernaut using the media and lobbyists and activists to overturn the traditions of this land.

If you think murdering babies, encouraging sodomy as "marriage," spending countless hours peeing one's drawers over a confederate flag, allowing ISIS to overrun an entire region and make Al-Queda look like amateurs, a disastrous Obamacare socialized health care debacle continue to bleed, "I'm ok, you're ok" morality reign supreme, well I don't know what to tell ya. I want a country with morals. I want a country that honors its ancestors (including confederates!). I want a nation that doesn't jettison babies and sell their parts like O'Reilly Auto Parts! I want a nation that values its 2nd Amendment rights. I want a country that forbids two men from "marrying" and mocking the very meaning of the institution. I want a country that follows your Catholic Church's morality. What I find bizarre with liberal Catholics is how little they fight for the morality of their faith to return to a once-great country. We're in big trouble. And all the tax increases, government programs, LGBT lobbyists, abortionists, commies, and nutters aren't going to make it better.

Regarding stopping another war, if you've watched CNN, MSNBC, and the media in general, it was confederate flags for weeks, not war prevention. The hysterics over a rebel battle flag went on and on and on and still are going on! You don't hear a lot of war worries.

ISIS means business. Christians are being wiped out in whole communities. The War on Terror isn't over. We can bury our heads in the sand, or we can fight. This milquetoast wimp president needs to get his head out of his southern orifice and put ISIS on the run instead of sucking up to Iran giving them nuclear power and billions of dollars in incentives with vague, pitiful oversight and low expectations. We can do better.

Taking down the confederate flag at our statehouses is not the first priority, not even for those in Charleston. The first priority is to prevent another decade long war with hundreds of thousands of men and women fighting on foreign shores. I have lived through three. That is quite enough.

And yes, you are free to believe that the issues you mention should decide the next election.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Old Glory is the flag of invaders, people who have dropped nukes on foreign lands, people who have created the Trail of Tears, folks who invaded the Philippines and Iraq and Afghanistan. It is the flag of the Tuskegee experiments, Jim Crow laws, the Vietnam War, permissive abortion laws, homosexual "marriage." It is the flag of a country that has tortured people.

It is naive to the nth degree to use hyperbole in trying to shame people for pride in their heritage. For every racist traitor comment you can cook up to make the rebel confederate battle flag meaningless, I can provide ten for you with the American stars and stripes. If you expect a flag to have a spotless history in order to be flown, there won't be a flag on this Earth that will meet your standards, Mike, and you know it. So drop the hyperbolic nonsense. I have ancestors who fought in the North AND South, and I resent you calling my ancestors traitors. Shame on you!

I'm not calling for any flags to be banned, not even the flags of racist traitors.

 

[Red Fox]

a nation guided by Judeo-Christian principles just as this great country has always had until recent times when your party and the secular humanists have become a morality juggernaut using the media and lobbyists and activists to overturn the traditions of this land.

Okay, that's where you lost me. Strange to hear about Christian values in a nation that was originally founded and built on racism, white supremacy, white privilege, white nationalism, not to mention on the genocide of Native Americans and the enslavement of African slaves. The only biblical aspects that can honestly be attributed to this country is the genocide and slavery that took place on its stolen tribal lands committed by God fearing Americans. So much for freedom or liberty and justice for all. And let's not forget the cultural genocide many Christians once committed against my ancestors, attempting to strip them entirely of their culture, their traditions, their way of life, their spirituality, and their humanity. Oh, let's certainly not forget all the thousands of Indian children who were stolen away from their families and placed into Indian Residential Schools where they were to be forcibly assimilated and Christianized. Well, cultural genocide against Native Americans is one tradition this country has kept up very well over the centuries since before its inception, and so is racism and oppression of its Indigenous and minority people too. I'd say so much for being a Christian nation.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hyperbolic language is beneath you, Kit, a smart person. And if you study the history of the Confederate flag, you'll see many things you say here are way off.

It's interesting how Abraham Lincoln, after the surrender, asked that "Dixie" be played for the Southern troops in honor of their gallant courage in war. He also made it clear that he wanted to permit them to continue to use the Confederate Rebel battle flag! Funny how you would probably call "Dixie" a "traitor tune" or "scumbag rebel seditious ditty" when Abraham Lincoln himself said it was moving and worth keeping as well as that flag.

It was used as a symbol of racism by SOME, but for most it is a piece of a proud heritage, one you obviously are not a part of, don't understand, and insult with hyperbolic rants.

The first Confederate flag resembled Old Glory too much in the minds of many confederates, and it was quite unpopular. It looked like this:

Like I said, they didn't like it overall as a nation, so they dumped it and went to the second flag which looked like this:

The third looked like this:

So when you say that it never had the stars and bars, that only the Virginians used it, that's inaccurate. It was contained in this flag.

If you're saying a strictly stars and bars flag, then yes that was indeed the battle flag. And that being a battle flag makes it even more harmless and less racist!

Some people sleep at night better attaching their hatred, paranoia, loathing, guilt, and hostility toward some object. That is why you'll see wackadoodle Muslims in huge groups burning Uncle Sam in effigy. You'll see people in Middle Eastern countries trampling Old Glory and setting it on fire or burning Bush or Obama in effigy somehow to channel their hatred and frustration and paranoid thinking. It just makes them feel better. Banning a flag is white guilt on the part of liberals and Southerners with a hatred for their ancestors or some kind of weird misplaced guilty conscience.

I for one AM QUITE GLAD that the North won! I'm glad the slaves were freed! I'm thrilled that they are equal to me, a white guy! I'd have it NO OTHER WAY! I'm glad Lincoln triumphed, and I agree with the aims of abolitionism! I thank God we have racial equality now. But I am 100% NOT going to trample the memory of the good folks who fought in that war. Along with the racist rednecks you had good, honest, hard-working, religious, caring, thoughtful, brave warriors who were fighting just to defend their state. They fought for the cause of states rights mostly and defending their homes and way of life. I can be opposed to slavery, glad the Yankees triumphed, but also willing to honor the memory of the other side! I can say they were Americans who deserve dignity. I don't have to defame an entire people with broad brush strokes of Middle Eastern-style paranoid hyperbolic effigy channeling.

I wish at some point people would realize history is complex just as the people in conflicts were mixed and with different backgrounds, goals, hopes, dreams, and outcomes.

If Franklin Roosevelt, a famous liberal Democratic President, could honor the Civil War veterans of his day with the stars and bars and Dixie played, talking of their heroism and courage, then it's good enough for me.

It is not as if someone is inventing a new meaning. The rag in question had no presence in public life for a century after the Civil War. It was created as a symbol for the segregationist cause just over 50 years ago. It was added to Southern states' flags at that time. It was brought forth as a symbol of racism. That is its purpose.

When it was a battle flag it in no way represented the whole of the Confederates. It was a battle banner of the Viriginian army. Very few soldiers of most other states didn't serve under that symbol. The mythology of the proponents of that rag have strayed quite far from facts.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It's simpler than it seems, Red. This country has sinned. It has sinned BADLY. Show me a country THAT HASN'T!!!! When I speak of values, I'm speaking of our traditional Christian faith, marriage as a respected institution, cohabitation considered immoral and sinful, abortion considered an abomination, people who weren't all drug-addicted and covered in tattoos and filth. We were a country that could leave our homes unlocked in the 1950's, and go about unfettered without fear of gang-bangers and scum. We used to be a country that didn't have our prisons packed to the rafters. We were a nation that had great infrastructure and unwavering in our willingness to take on evil.

You seem to think that a nation, in order to be great or have had anything worthwhile, must be sinless. Good luck finding such a country. Let me know when you discover it. I look at Japan and consider them a country with VERY strong values and a beautiful heritage. But have they sinned? You bet! And at times in their history they turned the other cheek to their values, as we have. Russia is a great country with amazing greatness and strength, values, and honor. But they fell into communism and atheism ran wild for decades there along with low points with certain tsars, etc.

Are you suggesting pride in American history must 100% be overshadowed by sins and failings and that I must spend all my time mired in self-loathing and hate my country's past? Nope. Not going to happen. I had ancestors on the Mayflower, several actually. I had ancestors in the Revolution, ancestors on both sides of the Civil War, grandpas in WWII, dad in Vietnam, friends in Iraq, and a place I grew up in and love. I'm proud of the history of my country, ashamed of MANY things in it, but I recognize it's a country run by people, sinful and frail, but the daily Joes of our country for hundreds of years, until recently, were good Christian folks just trying to do the right thing. This country we're living in now, it's almost unrecognizable.

Okay, that's where you lost me. Strange to hear about Christian values in a nation that was originally founded and built on racism, white supremacy, white privilege, white nationalism, not to mention on the genocide of Native Americans and the enslavement of African slaves. The only biblical aspects that can honestly be attributed to this country is the genocide and slavery that took place on its stolen tribal lands committed by God fearing Americans. So much for freedom or liberty and justice for all. I won't even mention the cultural genocide Christians once committed against my ancestors, attempting to strip them entirely of their culture, their traditions, their way of life, their spirituality, and their humanity. Oh, and never mind mentioning all the thousands of Native American children who were stolen away from their families and placed into Indian Residential Schools where they were to be forcibly assimilated and Christianized. Well, cultural genocide against Native Americans is one tradition this country has kept up very well over the centuries since before its inception, and so is racism and oppression of its Indigenous and minority people too. Yeah, land of the free, home of the brave...

 

[AmericanChristian91]

They fought for the cause of states rights mostly and defending their homes and way of life.

Yes states rights to preserve slavery (and expand it) and for white supremacy.

Slavery was heavily intertwined in what they saw as their "way of life" (i.e blacks lower then whites, etc)

They wanted "freedom", but not in the sense of equality to all.

Yes most Southerners did not own slaves, but one can want to preserve the institution while not owing a slave. There is a reason why the pro slavery viewpoint was very popular and in the south.

Looking in the articles of secession that some of the states did, you would notice they make the point several times about slavery and the natural order of things.

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

 

[AmericanChristian91]

but the daily Joes of our country for hundreds of years, until recently, were good Christian folks just trying to do the right thing. This country we're living in now, it's almost unrecognizable.

O please.......

You are romanticizing the past.

Back in your "good ol days", the USA was heavily racist, allowed slavery (promoted often by you average joe christian, saying its a good thing for blacks and whites and God ordained). They treated the Native Population like crap. Many Indians died because of racist actions and politics. There was a time in which women could not vote (minority races to) and were not treated with the human dignity they deserve. There was a time in which segregation was promoted by the government. Sure in some areas you could leave your door unlocked in the 1950's, but in the same era people were treated horribly, more so then today, for having a different skin color. People who are LGBT are treated with better dignity now days then in the past. I'm sure your against SSM, and that is understandable. But im sure even you agree that people should not be hurt/beaten/treated like crap for their sexual orientation. And back in the day. I agree we still have issues, but we are a better country then what we used to be.

 

[MikeK]

Old Glory is the flag of invaders, people who have dropped nukes on foreign lands, people who have created the Trail of Tears, folks who invaded the Philippines and Iraq and Afghanistan. It is the flag of the Tuskegee experiments, Jim Crow laws, the Vietnam War, permissive abortion laws, homosexual "marriage." It is the flag of a country that has tortured people.

It is naive to the nth degree to use hyperbole in trying to shame people for pride in their heritage. For every racist traitor comment you can cook up to make the rebel confederate battle flag meaningless, I can provide ten for you with the American stars and stripes. If you expect a flag to have a spotless history in order to be flown, there won't be a flag on this Earth that will meet your standards, Mike, and you know it. So drop the hyperbolic nonsense. I have ancestors who fought in the North AND South, and I resent you calling my ancestors traitors. Shame on you!

No need for all the emotion, we just disagree. I don't have much sentence mental attachment to any flag, though my ancestors have fought and died under various ones.

It surprises my to see you rant on about hyperbole given your habit of going on in sordid detail about sidomy and male on male anal sex when the subject of same sex marriage comes up. I'm sure it's different when you do it, and I'm equally sure that your ancestors weren't traitors.

 

[Miss Shelby]

As a yankee, in history classes I was always taught that the north prevailed and saved the African American from slavery, which is true of course. That's really all we were told about the civil war, though, other than Lincoln freed the slaves... But, there is something to be said for looking at the other point of view. Considering it from the times it was taking place in. I recommend the book 'Gods and Generals' to start with. There are two sequels to it. But it helped me see things from more than a Northern point of view.