More on that flag controversy

[wondrousgnat]

Alexander Stevens was vice president of the Confederacy and this is what he had to say:

"The prevailing ideas entertained by (Jefferson) and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically...Our new government is founded on exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests upon the great truth; that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery - subordination to the superior race - is his natural and normal condition."



And considering that the rebel battle flag was used by the KKK I can understand the objection some have to it.

 

[kit]

There is one whole set of reasons why it is repugnant. Stevens' Cornerstone Speech is a perfect example of that. Another set of reasons has to with the integrity of the United States. I have family who fought against the Confederacy (including an uncle who lost an arm). The confederates were traitors who started a war against the United States. We don't fly the Japanese Imperial banner or the Nazi Swastika for the same reasons. We do not honor our enemies, in particular when they embraced systems of evil in the course of their wars against us.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

And like 98% of confederate soldiers who fought in that war did not own slaves. I have ancestors who fought on both sides of the conflict.

Lincoln was no fan of black folks. He was opposed to slavery out of sympathy for their plight, but he was quick to want to get rid of blacks! Well into the Civil War he STILL wanted to eventually deport ALL slaves to Latin America or the Caribbean!!!

“I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races—that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

Comparing the Japanese flag, Swastikas, and other enemy flags to the Confederate battle flag is an apples and oranges argument. The confederates were American brothers who mostly fought for states rights and felt the Feds had too far-reaching control over their way of life.

When Reconstruction kicked in, Lincoln permitted the Southerners to continue to fly the Confederate flag. He even had Dixie played in honor of the Soutgern veterans upon surrender. Lincoln saw it as a source of Southern pride and heritage, a memory of their valiant fighting for a cause they believed in, not a symbol of race hatred.

The United States has invaded sovereign nations, oppressed Native Americans, dropped nukes on other countries, tortured people, and conquered much. If a flag must have a spotless history of blamelessness, you better start lobbying for taking down Old Glory, too!!

There is one whole set of reasons why it is repugnant. Stevens' Cornerstone Speech is a perfect example of that. Another set of reasons has to with the integrity of the United States. I have family who fought against the Confederacy (including an uncle who lost an arm). The confederates were traitors who started a war against the United States. We don't fly the Japanese Imperial banner or the Nazi Swastika for the same reasons. We do not honor our enemies, in particular when they embraced systems of evil in the course of their wars against us.

 

[kit]

And like 98% of confederate soldiers who fought in that war did not own slaves. I have ancestors who fought on both sides of the conflict.

Lincoln was no fan of black folks. He was opposed to slavery out of sympathy for their plight, but he was quick to want to get rid of blacks! Well into the Civil War he STILL wanted to eventually deport ALL slaves to Latin America or the Caribbean!!!

“I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races—that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

Comparing the Japanese flag, Swastikas, and other enemy flags to the Confederate battle flag is an apples and oranges argument. The confederates were American brothers who mostly fought for states rights and felt the Feds had too far-reaching control over their way of life.

When Reconstruction kicked in, Lincoln permitted the Southerners to continue to fly the Confederate flag. He even had Dixie played in honor of the Soutgern veterans upon surrender. Lincoln saw it as a source of Southern pride and heritage, a memory of their valiant fighting for a cause they believed in, not a symbol of race hatred.

The United States has invaded sovereign nations, oppressed Native Americans, dropped nukes on other countries, tortured people, and conquered much. If a flag must have a spotless history of blamelessness, you better start lobbying for taking down Old Glory, too!!

The soldiers of the Confederacy were fighting on the side of treason regardless of their ownership or not of fellow humans. They were fighting against the US. The Point is that they were traitors regardless of how much they supported or didn't Slavery.
Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, and the CSA are absolute equal comparisons. We (in the North anyway) are a German nation. My German relatives fought for the US against the Germans in the Third Reich. Americans fought their brothers in both World Wars.

Lincoln was dead before Reconstruction began. Perhaps you have heard about an incident at Fords Theatre.

The United States flag stands as an emblem of this current sovereign nation. Confederate flags are the banner of traitors. As it happens I don't salute the US flag because of the unjust wars carried out in its name. It is nonetheless far more honourable than the rag of the traitors.

 

[WarriorAngel]

 

[saintandrew4life]

does putting away the Confederate Flage and the Nazi Swastika slove the Hate issue.

 

[Reader Antonius]

This is SO great! QFT.

 

[Reader Antonius]

does putting away the Confederate Flage and the Nazi Swastika solve the Hate issue?

The short answer is no. Demonizing symbols has little objective value in overcoming any issues, and is often an emotional response to a difficult situation.

Destroying the meaning given to a symbol however is much more effective. Simply banning the symbol (particularly in our day and age) doesn't do that....particularly when by demonizing something you attempt to make its meaning exclusive to one particular interpretation (which generally encourages the crazies).

Only charity, dialogue, and knowledge will overcome hate.

Quixotic public denouncements and removals will not.

 

[Reader Antonius]

The soldiers of the Confederacy were fighting on the side of treason regardless of their ownership or not of fellow humans.
They were fighting against the US. The Point is that they were traitors regardless of how much they supported or didn't Slavery

If the objective reality of treason is what bothers you, then perhaps you also have the same scruples about this current nation – born as it is from the fires of open treason against the British Crown.

Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, and the CSA are absolute equal comparisons.

Absurd on the face of it.

It is nonetheless far more honourable than the rag of the traitors.

Not if we apply your own standard that treason is an evil. See above.

 

[Reader Antonius]

Alexander Stevens was vice president of the Confederacy and this is what he had to say:

"The prevailing ideas entertained by (Jefferson) and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically...Our new government is founded on exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests upon the great truth; that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery - subordination to the superior race - is his natural and normal condition."



And considering that the rebel battle flag was used by the KKK I can understand the objection some have to it.

Let's go ahead and call this what it is: An incendiary attempt to incite disagreement and antagonism on these forums. The flag issue should be causing us to dialogue in charity about a serious reality, not throw verbal fire-bombs at one another hoping to infuriate those who disagree with us.

It is just silly and will end up nowhere good.

 

[bill5]

Hurray, yet another thread about this when there are God knows how many already.

 

[kit]

does putting away the Confederate Flage and the Nazi Swastika slove the Hate issue.

Putting them forward invokes hatred. That is the point.

 

[WarriorAngel]

It depends on the 'recipients' idea of it...
It doesnt make it truth.
Symbols have a meaning behind them per person... and we cant go around pretending to know what it means to another.

Banning them wont change the heart anyway.

As i said before - the flag could symbolize a memorial for family who died. OR pride in being southern...despite the loss....or acceptance in remaining united with the north.
Pick one - besides the 'assumed' idea...

Its prejudice to suppose what it means - and you cant remove history.

 

[wondrousgnat]

my parents and uncles were German Americans and fought against Germany in WW2. Hopefully Germany decided to get a new flag and drop the Swastika.
Me? I enlisted in the army and served under the American flag. I did not serve under a state flag, sports team or school flag. I served under the American flag and am proud of my service.

 

[WarriorAngel]

my parents and uncles were German Americans and fought against Germany in WW2. Hopefully Germany decided to get a new flag and drop the Swastika.
Me? I enlisted in the army and served under the American flag. I did not serve under a state flag, sports team or school flag. I served under the American flag and am proud of my service.

Yet the very freedom you fought under - allows ppl to stomp that flag and burn it.
Irony.

 

[MikeK]

I see it as a free speech issue. People have every right to fly a Confederate flag, and few are arguing against it. Some people interpret this speech as suggestive of racist attitudes and beliefs on behalf of the person using this flag as speech. When a man has something He wishes to communicate, he will try to make his speech as clear as possible to avoid misunderstandings. Because this flag communicates so many things to do many different people, I have to conclude that those flying it either are racists and are okay with the Confederacy's positions regarding the ownership of blacks or that they don't hold this belief but feel it is so benign that they aren't bothered by the fact that their statement might be so interpreted.

When I was younger and first on my own, I flew a Soviet flag on Memorial Day, ostensibly out of respect for the memory of the too-often forgotten sacrifices of a nation that gave so many lives to defeat the Nazis. Some people misinterpreted my message. I was okay with that at first, because "that's their problem". As I grew into a man, I quickly realized that what I was doing was trolling and that I absolutely should chose to communicate my thoughts more effectively and more respectfully. Still, I support the right of immature children to fly racist symbols for whatever reason they believe they're flying it for.

 

[Colin]

This thread reminds me of the flag flying controversies in Northern Ireland .

 

[LivingWordUnity]

What most people probably don't know is that the main point of entry of slaves into the United States was New England.

The Triangle Trade

Colonial Massachusetts and Rhode Island played a major role in the "infamous triangle trade" of the 15th through mid-18th centuries. At the time, Massachusetts and Rhode Island produced some of the best rum in the world. It was this rum that was shipped to the western coast of Africa to be traded for slaves.

The ports in the New England colonies of Massachusetts and Rhode Island formed a vital leg of the triangle. In towns across New England, two forms of rum, tafia and ordinary rum, were produced. The rum was manufactured partially for personal consumption, but even more importantly, it was shipped to the west coast of Africa to be traded for gold and slaves.

Most of the slaves who were bought with New England rum were from Central and Western Africa. These slaves were transported aboard specially designed slave ships from the west coast of Africa to the sugar producing islands of the West Indies and a small portion made the trip to colonial America.

Upon arrival in the West Indies, the slaves were sold and traded for sugar and molasses, two of the key ingredients in rum production. The sugar, molasses and any remaining money were then shipped to New England (Massachusetts and Rhode Island) where the molasses and sugar were used to produce the rum which would be traded for another group of slaves in Africa. New England's rum distilleries were integral to the continuation of the immensely profitable triangle trade. This continuous cycle of rum production and trade ensured a constant influx of capital which was used to help "industrialize New England with ventures into textile manufacturing."

The transportation of slaves from Africa to the West Indies was know as the "Middle Passage." The Middle Passage was the longest leg of the triangular trade route. Slaves were kept below deck in conditions that were almost uninhabitable. The food that they were fed was often contaminated as was the water. For reasons such as this there was roughly a 12% mortality rate during this part of the journey alone. Typically, slaves were allowed on the above decks of the ship for only a short while each day for "exercise". The purpose of the exercise was not because the slave traders were friendly or caring, but they realized that the circulation of the slaves was poor because they were laying on their backs for roughly 23 hours a day in chains. When the slaves were brought above deck revolts were not uncommon, nor was the action of slaves throwing themselves overboard to avoid a life in captivity.

(Source)

 

[wondrousgnat]

We all, including me, tend to look at things under current standards. But in the past to own or sell slaves one had to regard Blacks as grossly inferior. Most whites had never met a black so all they knew was what they heard. And since the vast majority at that time were living hand to mouth existence it was good to have at least someone you could feel superior to.
Virtually nobody, except for a small portion of the Radical Republicans, felt blacks should have equal rights. To oppose slavery while also opposing rights to vote, serve on a jury or to own property would be an extreme racist today but too radical then. Lincoln's predecessor, James Buchanan, was opposed to slavery but decided he could do nothing because the constitution prevented him. Lincoln was opposed to the spread of slavery and that very idea was so extreme for the time that states started to secede before he even took office.
Lincoln did not issue the Emancipation Proclamation until two years after taking office. And then it was only for the states in rebellion and not for the border states. Nevertheless Black abolitionist Frederick Douglas lauded it as a great document.

(Of course racism continues today. For example the much loved Jerry Falwell was opposed to the possibility of busing dirty, barefoot urchins to his church. He stated that God created people unequal and he opened up his segregated school the same year that Richmond desegregated theirs. And he raised a big stink in 1978 when the IRS took away his tax deferment because his school was not integrated.)

 

[Miss Shelby]

The newest liberal crusade: equating the confederate flag with racism. They weren't satisfied with the connotation that it was just a redneck symbol, they have to up the ante and convince every non thinker to believe the same.