Morality

[Nihilist Virus]

"I can improve upon the morality of the Bible if I copy it word for word and then reverse its position on slavery." -Matt Dillahunty

I believe that when it comes to morality, atheism defeats theism simply by remaining silent. Abrahamic religions contain commandments, concessions and/or encouragements for all of the following:

Abortion Numbers 5:11-31
Rape Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Slavery Leviticus 25:44-46
Genocide 1 Samuel 15:2-3
Mass murder Genesis 7


Compounding the problem is 1 John 3:4, which says,

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The law is the law of Moses. Therefore, I have my doubts when a Christian claims that certain laws of the Old Testament are a covenant between Jehovah and Israel while other laws in the Old Testament are absolute and/or eternal. If this is your position, please list for us the laws which have expired and I will assume that all other laws are still in effect. If your position on morality is more complicated than that, please elucidate it and we will engage from there.

The identifiable argument of this thread:

1.) If Biblical morality (the law) can be improved, then it is from man and not from God.
2.) The law can be improved.
3.) The law is from man and not from God.
4.) We are not accountable to the law.
5.) Christ's death and resurrection, if they occurred, were pointless.
6.) Christianity is pointless.

 

[Greg J.]

"I can improve upon the morality of the Bible if I copy it word for word and then reverse its position on slavery." -Matt Dillahunty

Too bad so many people, including Christians, think they understand God, since that it what is needed to always correctly interpret the Bible.

 

[redleghunter]

"I can improve upon the morality of the Bible if I copy it word for word and then reverse its position on slavery." -Matt Dillahunty

I believe that when it comes to morality, atheism defeats theism simply by remaining silent. Abrahamic religions contain commandments, concessions and/or encouragements for all of the following:

Abortion Numbers 5:11-31
Rape Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Slavery Leviticus 25:44-46
Genocide 1 Samuel 15:2-3
Mass murder Genesis 7


Compounding the problem is 1 John 3:4, which says,

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The law is the law of Moses. Therefore, I have my doubts when a Christian claims that certain laws of the Old Testament are a covenant between Jehovah and Israel while other laws in the Old Testament are absolute and/or eternal. If this is your position, please list for us the laws which have expired and I will assume that all other laws are still in effect. If your position on morality is more complicated than that, please elucidate it and we will engage from there.

The identifiable argument of this thread:

1.) If Biblical morality (the law) can be improved, then it is from man and not from God.
2.) The law can be improved.
3.) The law is from man and not from God.
4.) We are not accountable to the law.
5.) Christ's death and resurrection, if they occurred, were pointless.
6.) Christianity is pointless.

Show me abortion in Numbers 5:11-31.

Not there.

 

[redleghunter]

"I can improve upon the morality of the Bible if I copy it word for word and then reverse its position on slavery." -Matt Dillahunty

I believe that when it comes to morality, atheism defeats theism simply by remaining silent. Abrahamic religions contain commandments, concessions and/or encouragements for all of the following:

Abortion Numbers 5:11-31
Rape Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Slavery Leviticus 25:44-46
Genocide 1 Samuel 15:2-3
Mass murder Genesis 7


Compounding the problem is 1 John 3:4, which says,

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The law is the law of Moses. Therefore, I have my doubts when a Christian claims that certain laws of the Old Testament are a covenant between Jehovah and Israel while other laws in the Old Testament are absolute and/or eternal. If this is your position, please list for us the laws which have expired and I will assume that all other laws are still in effect. If your position on morality is more complicated than that, please elucidate it and we will engage from there.

The identifiable argument of this thread:

1.) If Biblical morality (the law) can be improved, then it is from man and not from God.
2.) The law can be improved.
3.) The law is from man and not from God.
4.) We are not accountable to the law.
5.) Christ's death and resurrection, if they occurred, were pointless.
6.) Christianity is pointless.

What is the atheistic supreme transcendent standard to test your OP?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

"I can improve upon the morality of the Bible if I copy it word for word and then reverse its position on slavery." -Matt Dillahunty

I believe that when it comes to morality, atheism defeats theism simply by remaining silent. Abrahamic religions contain commandments, concessions and/or encouragements for all of the following:

Abortion Numbers 5:11-31
Rape Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Slavery Leviticus 25:44-46
Genocide 1 Samuel 15:2-3
Mass murder Genesis 7


Compounding the problem is 1 John 3:4, which says,

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The law is the law of Moses. Therefore, I have my doubts when a Christian claims that certain laws of the Old Testament are a covenant between Jehovah and Israel while other laws in the Old Testament are absolute and/or eternal. If this is your position, please list for us the laws which have expired and I will assume that all other laws are still in effect. If your position on morality is more complicated than that, please elucidate it and we will engage from there.

The identifiable argument of this thread:

1.) If Biblical morality (the law) can be improved, then it is from man and not from God.
2.) The law can be improved.
3.) The law is from man and not from God.
4.) We are not accountable to the law.
5.) Christ's death and resurrection, if they occurred, were pointless.
6.) Christianity is pointless.

I can't believe it! You proved religion is false. I guess it is settled and your mission here on this forum is complete...now you can leave.[emoji4]

 

[civilwarbuff]

That's classic, man.....thanks.

 

[Tree of Life]

1.) If Biblical morality (the law) can be improved, then it is from man and not from God.
2.) The law can be improved.
3.) The law is from man and not from God.
4.) We are not accountable to the law.
5.) Christ's death and resurrection, if they occurred, were pointless.
6.) Christianity is pointless.

This is a bad argument because it is several arguments. Pick one thing to defend and defend it. But it's bad for other reasons as well.

2.) The law can be improved.

We could only know this by appealing to some other norm. What other norm do you appeal to? What do you measure God's Law by in order to know that it is deficient?

 

[rjs330]

I'm not going to,address the entirety of your post. I thought you were just going to question about the law and cherry picking so I will,to there.

First of all we believers are no longer bound by the law of the Old Covenant. The book of Galations covers that quite well as well as Romans.

So why was the Law given? It was added because of offenses, until the descendant would come to whom the promise had been made. It was put in place through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now the mediator does not take one side; but God is one. So, is the Law against the promises of God? Absolutely not! If a Law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would in fact have come from the Law. But scripture locked up all things under sin, so that the promise based on the faithfulness of Jesus Christ might be given to those who have faith. Before faith came, we were guarded under the Law, locked up until faith that was coming would be revealed, so that the Law became our custodian until Christ so that we might be made righteous by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian. You are all God’s children through faith in Christ Jesus. All of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek; there is neither slave nor free; nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Now if you belong to Christ, then indeed you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:19‭-‬29 CEB
http://bible.com/37/gal.3.19-29.CEB

So we are no longer under the law. It is through faith in Jesus that we are saved, not by adherence to the law.

However, there is still sin. Read 1 John. So, what sin is there? Do we just cherry pick? Since we are no longer under the law, how do we know what sins are? They are all outlined by Jesus and the apostles.

I say be guided by the Spirit and you won’t carry out your selfish desires. A person’s selfish desires are set against the Spirit, and the Spirit is set against one’s selfish desires. They are opposed to each other, so you shouldn’t do whatever you want to do. But if you are being led by the Spirit, you aren’t under the Law. The actions that are produced by selfish motives are obvious, since they include sexual immorality, moral corruption, doing whatever feels good, idolatry, drug use and casting spells, hate, fighting, obsession, losing your temper, competitive opposition, conflict, selfishness, group rivalry, jealousy, drunkenness, partying, and other things like that. I warn you as I have already warned you, that those who do these kinds of things won’t inherit God’s kingdom.
Galatians 5:16‭-‬21 CEB
http://bible.com/37/gal.5.16-21.CEB

 

[Nihilist Virus]

This is a bad argument because it is several arguments. Pick one thing to defend and defend it. But it's bad for other reasons as well.


We could only know this by appealing to some other norm. What other norm do you appeal to? What do you measure God's Law by in order to know that it is deficient?

I'm appealing to the norm that we have in the modern day and I'm saying that it's better than what is decreed in the Bible. By "better" I mean that the vast majority of people would prefer to live in the current norm rather than the Biblical norm.

 

[Tree of Life]

I'm appealing to the norm that we have in the modern day and I'm saying that it's better than what is decreed in the Bible. By "better" I mean that the vast majority of people would prefer to live in the current norm rather than the Biblical norm.

So you say "modern ethics > biblical ethics". On what grounds? Simply that you prefer modern ethics?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

However, there is still sin. Read 1 John. So, what sin is there? Do we just cherry pick? Since we are no longer under the law, how do we know what sins are? They are all outlined by Jesus and the apostles.

Rape is not addressed at all. Do we default to the Old Testament rules on this issue or do we appeal to our own common sense?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

So you say "modern ethics > biblical ethics". On what grounds? Simply that you prefer modern ethics?

You asked me what norm I appeal to and I gave you an answer. Is this a new question or are you repeating the old one?

 

[Tree of Life]

You asked me what norm I appeal to and I gave you an answer. Is this a new question or are you repeating the old one?

It's just not much of an argument. You're basically saying:

1. I prefer my own ideas to the Bible's ideas
2. Therefore my ideas are superior

Forgive me if I'm not convinced.

 

[rjs330]

Rape is not addressed at all. Do we default to the Old Testament rules on this issue or do we appeal to our own common sense?

Yes it is. Sex with anyone but your wife is forbidden, rape or not. And there is the matter of violence which is also sinful.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Yes it is. Sex with anyone but your wife is forbidden, rape or not. And there is the matter of violence which is also sinful.

So how do you feel about nonviolent rape of one's wife?

Also, there is the issue of slavery.

 

[civilwarbuff]

So how do you feel about nonviolent rape of one's wife?

Rape is rape, isn't it?....Maybe you can expound on your statement....but probably cant'....

 

[rjs330]

So how do you feel about nonviolent rape of one's wife?

Also, there is the issue of slavery.

That would be forbidden also. I don't know how rape could ever be considered non violent. It would be in violation of how husbands are to treat their wives. We are to live our wives. Rape of your wife is violence and not loving.

So as you can see there is no cherry picking involved with the law. We are free from the requirements of the law, but there is a new covenant which we are to follow and in that covenant there is still sinful behaviors we are to avoid.

One other thing is that unbelievers are are not subject to the believers covenant. They are sinners and lost already. They have fallen short of the glory of God all ready. As Jesus said the world is condemned all ready. By virtue of existence without Jesus they are lost sinners.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

It's just not much of an argument. You're basically saying:

1. I prefer my own ideas to the Bible's ideas
2. Therefore my ideas are superior

Forgive me if I'm not convinced.

Would you prefer to live in a world where one human being could own another as property and beat that person as long as they don't die?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Would you prefer to live in a world where one human being could own another as property and beat that person as long as they don't die?

Why do you live in the OT world when Christians live in the NT world? Is that the only place you feel you can prove the "pointlessness" of Christianity?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

That would be forbidden also. I don't know how rape could ever be considered non violent. It would be in violation of how husbands are to treat their wives. We are to live our wives. Rape of your wife is violence and not loving.

So as you can see there is no cherry picking involved with the law. We are free from the requirements of the law, but there is a new covenant which we are to follow and in that covenant there is still sinful behaviors we are to avoid.

One other thing is that unbelievers are are not subject to the believers covenant. They are sinners and lost already. They have fallen short of the glory of God all ready. As Jesus said the world is condemned all ready. By virtue of existence without Jesus they are lost sinners.

Rape can be nonviolent. And you completely ignored the issue of slavery. Am I to assume that you see nothing wrong with slavery, or did you just miss that part of my post?