Moral Theology and the 2008 Election

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ShannonMcCatholic

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It also lays bare just how hard a nut this is to crack.
Absolutely--and just how much total commitment and a willingness to not keep doing the same things over and over again, but expecting different results.

Man- I wish you guys would read my book with me this month--I think it would be awesome to discuss it with y'all....
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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No, but it is a flawed and blanketed argument to claim that the por-lifers do not address the social issues behind abortion and poverty. It is misplaced blame and scape-goating.

Outline a plan that address both in a serious manner and we can discuss it.

Unitl then this is all just puffing.
 
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BAFRIEND

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Outline a plan that address both in a serious manner and we can discuss it.

Unitl then this is all just puffing.

There are plans out there, but until people are not allowed to baby butcher at will there will be no motivation for our politicians to legislate the plans into action will there ?

Instead of setting up protection nets for young familys, the politicians instead will focus on corporate welfare and the Freedom of Choice Act, etc.
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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There are plans out there, but until people are not allowed to baby butcher at will there will be no motivation for our politicians to legislate the plans into action will there ?

Instead of setting up protection nets for young familys, the politicians instead will focus on corporate welfare and the Freedom of Choice Act, etc.

I rest my case on why I think the "lets do both" argument is irrelevent.
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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And the verdict, handed down from the judges bench, is a death sentance for millions of children.

The judge who decide that doing both wasn't possible BA, was you, two posts up.
 
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BAFRIEND

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The judge who decide that doing both wasn't possible BA, was you, two posts up.

I did not state that. I stated that it was scape goating to say that pro-lifers were not active on both fronts.

I was stating that both are important but in fact keeping abortion legal is actually a barrier to creating solutions to solving the social problems behind abortion in the first place.
 
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Davidnic

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Double effect and Proportional reasoning are, to me, like quantum machanics and string threory.

No one really understand's either and everyone thinks the can explain it someone else. And most people who think they get either one also thing the sub-collider is going to build a black hole that will destory the planet.

In other word is all B as in B and S as in S.


But I'll give it a whirl just for you Davy.


Thanks Charlie. Oh I know it is convoluted at times. I make no promises of being able to explain it better than others, but I think a discussion of it will at least be interesting.
 
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Davidnic

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So is the main Catholic argument to vote for Obama:

His policies support most other aspects of Catholic Social Dogma so that outweighs his support of Abortion since his policies will mitigate the causes of abortion.

And for McCain:

He will appoint a judge that will tip the balance and eliminate Roe V Wade. So his support for stem cells and other issue is out weighed by that.

Are those the two main ones and what are any others. I hope we can collect the reasoning and then subject them all fairly to Catholic Moral guidelines.
 
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Davidnic

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One thing to remember as we move forward is that conditionalism or consequentialism where the outcome of the actions form the basis for moral decision is not something that the Church endorses. The same with direct proportionalism:

But as part of the effort to work out such a rational morality (for this reason it is sometimes called an "autonomous morality" ) there exist
false solutions, linked in particular to an inadequate understanding of the object of moral action. Some authors do not take into sufficient consideration the fact that the will is involved in the concrete choices which it makes: these choices are a condition of its moral goodness and its being ordered to the ultimate end of the person.

Others are inspired by a notion of freedom which prescinds from the actual conditions of its exercise, from its objective reference to the truth about the good, and from its determination through choices of concrete kinds of behaviour. According to these theories, free will would neither be morally subjected to specific obligations nor shaped by its choices, while nonetheless still remaining responsible for its own acts and for their consequences.

This
"teleologism", as a method for discovering the moral norm, can thus be called — according to terminology and approaches imported from different currents of thought — "consequentialism" or "proportionalism". The former claims to draw the criteria of the rightness of a given way of acting solely from a calculation of foreseeable consequences deriving from a given choice. The latter, by weighing the various values and goods being sought, focuses rather on the proportion acknowledged between the good and bad effects of that choice, with a view to the "greater good" or "lesser evil" actually possible in a particular situation.

The teleological ethical theories (proportionalism, consequentialism), while acknowledging that moral values are indicated by reason and by Revelation, maintain that it is never possible to formulate an absolute prohibition of particular kinds of behaviour which would be in conflict, in every circumstance and in every culture, with those values.


The acting subject would indeed be responsible for attaining the values pursued, but in two ways: the values or goods involved in a human act would be, from one viewpoint, of the moral order (in relation to properly moral values, such as love of God and neighbor, justice, etc.) and, from another viewpoint, of the pre-moral order, which some term non-moral, physical or ontic (in relation to the advantages and disadvantages accruing both to the agent and to all other persons possibly involved, such as, for example, health or its endangerment, physical integrity, life, death, loss of material goods, etc.).


In a world where goodness is always mixed with evil, and every good effect linked to other evil effects, the morality of an act would be judged in two different ways: its moral "goodness" would be judged on the basis of the subject's intention in reference to moral goods, and its "rightness" on the basis of a consideration of its foreseeable effects or consequences and of their proportion.


Consequently, concrete kinds of behavior could be described as "right" or "wrong", without it being thereby possible to judge as morally "good" or "bad" the will of the person choosing them. In this way, an act which, by contradicting a universal negative norm, directly violates goods considered as "pre-moral" could be qualified as morally acceptable if the intention of the subject is focused, in accordance with a "responsible" assessment of the goods involved in the concrete action, on the moral value judged to be decisive in the situation.


The evaluation of the consequences of the action, based on the proportion between the act and its effects and between the effects themselves, would regard only the pre-moral order. The moral specificity of acts, that is their goodness or evil, would be determined exclusively by the faithfulness of the person to the highest values of charity and prudence, without this faithfulness necessarily being incompatible with choices contrary to certain particular moral precepts. Even when grave matter is concerned, these precepts should be considered as operative norms which are always relative and open to exceptions.



John Paul II
Veritatis Splendor
 
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Davidnic

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Also the general accepted form of the Principle of Double effect:


  1. The object of the act must not be intrinsically contradictory to one's fundamental commitment to God and neighbor (including oneself), that is, it must be a good action judged by its moral object (in other words, the action must not be intrinsically evil);
  2. The direct intention of the agent must be to achieve the beneficial effects and to avoid the foreseen harmful effects as far as possible, that is, one must only indirectly intend the harm;
  3. The foreseen beneficial effects must not be achieved by the means of the foreseen harmful effects, and no other means of achieving those effects are available;
  4. The foreseen beneficial effects must be equal to or greater than the foreseen harmful effects (the proportionate judgment);
  5. The beneficial effects must follow from the action at least as immediately as do the harmful effects.

From Ascension Healthcare as taken from Ashley, B. and Kevin O’Rourke, Healthcare Ethics: A Theological Analysis, 4th Edition (Washington, DC: Georgetown University Press, 1997)
 
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Davidnic

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So there can be proportionate judgment within the framework of double effect but not unfettered proportionalism or consequentialism where intrinsic evil is not taken into account and where intended/foreseen consequences are not fully explored.

A big issue here is: Can the outcome be accomplished any other way?
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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Here is my reasoning on the whole McCain/ Obama issue.

1) Obama's current political opinion of abortion is that it should be an inalienable right. However, his insistence that pro-life candidates should be welcomed into the party and their ideas seriously taken into account and his further insistance of the softening of the language in the party platform regarding abortion suggests that he is open to change and that the party can change.

2)McCain may or may not be pro-life. He has changed his mind several times. He may or may not nominate pro-life judges who may or may not be get past the Senate. Pro-life judges tend to be also pro-corporate and fasicst and activitist in idelology none of which is good for the country, our freedoms or the Constituiton generally.

3) Neither is likely to take any real action to make abortion illegal at the Federal or State levels. History shows that this is the case. The current status quo is advantagous for the Republican party and the Dem's seem to want to keep the situation as it is because its constituancy seem to want to keep it as it is.

Further, all opinion polls suggust the majority of Americans want the situation to remain substanically the same.


Therefore:


the current legal state of abortion is most likely to remain substancially unchange regardless of who wins. Abortion is therefore proportionly not a major moral issue in the election.
 
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Davidnic

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Here is my reasoning on the whole McCain/ Obama issue.

1) Obama's current political opinion of abortion is that it should be an inalienable right. However, his insistence that pro-life candidates should be welcomed into the party and their ideas seriously taken into account and his further insistance of the softening of the language in the party platform regarding abortion suggests that he is open to change and that the party can change.

2)McCain may or may not be pro-life. He has changed his mind several times. He may or may not nominate pro-life judges who may or may not be get past the Senate. Pro-life judges tend to be also pro-corporate and fasicst and activitist in idelology none of which is good for the country, our freedoms or the Constituiton generally.

3) Neither is likely to take any real action to make abortion illegal at the Federal or State levels. History shows that this is the case. The current status quo is advantagous for the Republican party and the Dem's seem to want to keep the situation as it is because its constituancy seem to want to keep it as it is.

Further, all opinion polls suggust the majority of Americans want the situation to remain substanically the same.


Therefore:


the current legal state of abortion is most likely to remain substancially unchange regardless of who wins. Abortion is therefore proportionly not a major moral issue in the election.

The issue with that is Obama's support for the Freedom of Choice act. That act...but admission of it's sponsor:

"The Freedom of Choice Act supersedes any law, regulation or local ordinance that impinges on a woman’s right to choose."

Obama not only supports it, but aggressively does so. That is the one thing that changes the dynamic you mention. So his support of that act will indeed substantially change the dynamic of the legal state of abortion by basically eliminating the ability of the states to make laws restricting abortion.

I am not saying this means vote for McCain but it does change the proportional reasons to an extent. And one could argue that his unmitigated and total support for that law makes a foreseen consequence of his election so intrinsically tied to his election that it becomes directly a result rather than indirect.

I am just saying that is the one counter to the proposition you bring up.
 
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Davidnic

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So are two of the arguments we are working with:

Obama:

His policies support most other aspects of Catholic Social Dogma so that outweighs his support of Abortion since his policies will mitigate the causes of abortion.

McCain:

He will appoint a judge that will tip the balance and eliminate Roe V Wade. So his support for stem cells and other issues is out weighed by that.

Are there others, or variations on a theme?
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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David, without getting too specific (so as to not break the rules), I won't be responding any further since my posts keep being deleted by disgruntled staffers who have it in for me.

Whoa !

People are deleting posts ?

I thought I was having a technical issue with the site.

Let me guess, they're not telling you they are deleting them are they ?
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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The issue with that is Obama's support for the Freedom of Choice act. That act...but admission of it's sponsor:

"The Freedom of Choice Act supersedes any law, regulation or local ordinance that impinges on a woman’s right to choose."

Obama not only supports it, but aggressively does so. That is the one thing that changes the dynamic you mention. So his support of that act will indeed substantially change the dynamic of the legal state of abortion by basically eliminating the ability of the states to make laws restricting abortion.

I am not saying this means vote for McCain but it does change the proportional reasons to an extent. And one could argue that his unmitigated and total support for that law makes a foreseen consequence of his election so intrinsically tied to his election that it becomes directly a result rather than indirect.

I am just saying that is the one counter to the proposition you bring up.

Until it passes or has a reasonably good chance of passing I see his support of the act as the same kind of none event as the Republicans claiming to want to end abortion.

It all means nothing since nothing is what is going to happen.
 
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benedictaoo

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I gotta come in here with another angle on this:

I would have a completely differnet stand on abortion if I beleived, as some apparently do, that women are being forced or in some way systematically persuaded or convienced to have abortions.

This just isn't the case.

Women seek out abortions because they want them. The people performing abortion are providing a service that is wanted and popular.

This to me make the whole proportional reason argument a non sequiour to me.

The law is not the issue, the desire by the women to have an abortion is.

This point, which seem obvious to me, is lost on people who are smarter, better and just plain nicer than me. But changing the law doesn't remove the need or the desire for the service and women will contiune to get them.

History shows this.

You guys can argue proportionality all you want I just don't think it applies to this situation.

A lot of ppl want to commit suicide to C, do we just give them a gun? No... well maybe one day with the direction we keep going in.

I donlt get it, we donlt have the right to kill ourselves and it's our body but we have the right to kill our off spring becuase it's our body.
 
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