- Jan 26, 2007
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I've heard it said, "In combat, a bad decision MIGHT get you killed but indecision will do it most every time."
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I've heard it said, "In combat, a bad decision MIGHT get you killed but indecision will do it most every time."
Interestingly enough, it's amazing how many acknowledge that people perish in the heat of the moment due to the ways that reaction time can occur/others are prone to be want to fight regardless - and yet not many acknowledge how many on the other side reacted due to feeling the same about the other side even though both sides may've been willing to seek peace.....and assumed it only of themselves when it came to the best of intentions.Yes, that is a large part of what I am saying. Sometimes, come Hell or high water, people are just going to fight, despite the high risk of death.
Gxg (G²);64256554 said:Interestingly enough, it's amazing how many acknowledge that people perish in the heat of the moment due to the ways that reaction time can occur/others are prone to be want to fight regardless - and yet not many acknowledge how many on the other side reacted due to feeling the same about the other side even though both sides may've been willing to seek peace.....and assumed it only of themselves when it came to the best of intentions.
It's like having a war go on between those we deem insurgents in a land - calling ourselves the "heroes" in our actions and them the "enemy" and assuming they are less honorable in their goals and intentions - and yet on the battle field, soldiers from both sides realize they have family/friends they are concerned for.....that both of them have potentially been thrown into war with no intention/heart to kill others on the other side....and that both, if not doing battle, would be able to sit down/realize how dark war is as well as unecessesary.
But we often forget that those trying to not fight often get punished by their respective sides if/when they realize that they don't have to use violence - for that doesn't fit the narrative both of their sides have of the other not having any redeeming sides to them.
So often people in the West assume others are automatically "wrong" for what they do against us - but if we do the same things to them, we deem it as "patriotism" or "justice" or call others "heroes".....and never realize how no one really wins when war is exalted and lives are taken. Even with enemies who may be doing horrible things, the reality is that those suffering aren't just them - they may've had families who are going to starve or friends who got caught in the cross-fire simply for being associated with them.
And they may've been JUST as complicated as the other soldier on the field...
As believers we don’t get people groups to comply by exercising power over, but power under. ..and I remember what another brother in Christ noted when telling me of how one of his mentors ( Dr. Black ) told him “I pray for the opportunity to wash Bin Laden’s feet“.(as Jesus did for corrupt men in John 13)....rather than the reactionary action of wanting his death when others have been asked what they'd do if they found him.
Can never really have a moment of gloating over the loss of life
Proverbs 24:16-18
For a righteous man may fall seven times
And rise again,
But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
17 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
18 Lest the Lord see it, and it displease Him,
And He turn away His wrath from him.
More than understand - as some moments are purely on instinct and what may've seemed right in the moment. It's no different than being on the streets and being around others seeming to be aggressive - and the moment they do something to you, you hope for the ideal to convince them to do otherwise.....but in the immediate, when it seems to be a quick action, you react and take out the person with the gun or the knife or the person coming at you.Sometimes that is the case, people feel they have to fight. In fact, one of those situations is a large part of the reason I am Orthodox. The timeframe I was referring to, however, was the time it takes for the threat of violence to take effect; you do not always have time to say, "stop shooting or I will kill you."
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To be clear, I wasn't saying you personally doubted the things they noted - as I was speaking in general and on the basis of other things I've seen others do on the matter. My apologies if that was not clear...I think you assume too much. I don't doubt their bravery, sincerity, and in some cases even their motivations.
Originally Posted by isshinwhat
I watched a man run from a firefight, reposition and set up with four other men to fire again. As he peered around the corner and we prepared to engage, his 4-6 year old son and some other kids ran from inside the house and hugged him - just like my children do when I get home. Like any decent man, he embraced his son then shooed him back inside to safety. Once the children were back inside, we began firing and killed two of the men. People don't die like they do in the movies; death is ugly.
The father who embraced his child took fragmentation to his face and torso as he crawled for cover on all fours. When we hit him, he stood up to run and collapsed in his doorway where someone dragged him inside. He died in his home after being pulled through the same door where his son had just run. I don't know why he fired on the ground forces that day. Did he feel he was protecting his village and family? Had he been lied to about our intentions? Was he filled with hate and just wanted to fight? I don't know... But I pray for him, his family, and the child that had to watch his father die on the floor because he decided to fight that day. I also pray that God forgives me if we chose poorly.
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Very true. Things are not always so simple....Sometimes the threat of punishment is there, but not always. The reasons for people going to war are as varied as the men who fight them.
As I said before, some do dehumanize their opponents; I've seen it on both sides. It is not the case in every circumstance, though. The struggle within, when you live in a place where things which do not make sense happen all around you, is the most difficult part of war... God help us all
Good point and distinctions...I don't think fighting wars for secular reasons is Christ's will. But giving your life to save another is Christ's example to us. Some would stand by while there wife was taken advantage of by an invading army and say that they were pacifist . But I feel that as Christ gave His life for His Bride the Church we should give our life to save our bride and children. but to fight on this side or that side of some secular war (the only kind of war) is not Gods will for the Christian.
I had 2 uncles who fought in WWII. My uncle Hubert arrived in France on D-Day. I personally never heard him speak of the war but my cousin, his grandson said he talked about it sometimes when he was drinking. He said that regular Wehrmacht soldiers would sometimes surrender but that SS never did, they would fight to the death.
My uncle Hollis was in artillery and didn't see a lot of bloody, face to face fighting so he wasn't as loathe to talk about the things he saw. He told of being camped near a winery and sneaking in and getting wine in fuel jugs for the men. He heard something as he was leaving and saw some German soldiers running away with wine. He said they could have killed him but were just getting wine like he was. He also told of meeting Wehrmacht prisoners who hated Hitler but were stuck fighting because he had gotten them into war and they were forced to fight. He even had a prisoner ask to speak with his commanding officer once. Turned out the guy was a first generation American BORN in Indiana but conscripted into the German army while visiting family in Germany.
What got me to thinking about them was how uncle Hollis, who was a very pious Baptist his whole life, told about helping Italian townspeople who were very appreciative after they realized that the Americans weren't going to run through the towns, raping and pillaging as they were told to expect. How many died fighting the Allies simply because they were told they would do those things. I'd certainly fight against invading troops if I believed they would harm my family.
Didn't say (nor was it assumed) that not many people were aware of it - thus, there's no need saying that more people are aware than I think.More people are aware of those nuances than you think. Those nuances are at the heart of counterinsurgency.
They are why PRTs exist: Provincial Reconstruction Team - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They are why FETs exist: Female engagement teams: who they are and why they do it | Article | The United States Army
They are why CJSOTF operates the way it does: USSOF Provides Veterinary Support to Badghis Livestock Owners | ISAF - International Security Assistance Force
There's also the reality that there's often misunderstanding of desire and that's a reason many chose not to act and noted it to prevent deadly action that they used to think was the only way to handle issues...That being said, though most of us are aware of those nuances; they drive our overall planning and rules of engagement for instance, the immediate reasons a person is trying to kill someone are not as important for most people as preventing them from carrying that desire out. You do what you can to prevent that desire from festering, but once they act the clock is ticking and failure to act is deadly.
Gxg (G²);64266287 said:Didn't say (nor was it assumed) that not many people were aware of it - thus, there's no need saying that more people are aware than I think.
Concerning what you said..as it came to mind recently...one of the reasons St Alexander Nevsky is a saint, is because he defended his homeland from invaders. St Davit the Builder as well.
All of us would do things we'd not think we were able to do if cornered....and so glad for the Grace/Mercy of the Lord in the matter.I'd certainly fight against invading troops if I believed they would harm my family.
Came across this very fascinating review:How about these? The nuns of St Joanikija. (SP?) Here is a link from an LA Times article.
Serbian Nuns With Guns Put Most of Their Faith in a Higher Power - Los Angeles Times
Jack Bower often broke the law and harmed A LOT of people in the process....Jack Bowers way of doing things gets results.
Gxg (G²);65701234 said:Jack Bower often broke the law and harmed A LOT of people in the process....