Monks/Monastics vs Military Might: Is Self-Defense against Perversion Right?

Gxg (G²)

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Yes, that is a large part of what I am saying. Sometimes, come Hell or high water, people are just going to fight, despite the high risk of death.
Interestingly enough, it's amazing how many acknowledge that people perish in the heat of the moment due to the ways that reaction time can occur/others are prone to be want to fight regardless - and yet not many acknowledge how many on the other side reacted due to feeling the same about the other side even though both sides may've been willing to seek peace.....and assumed it only of themselves when it came to the best of intentions.

It's like having a war go on between those we deem insurgents in a land - calling ourselves the "heroes" in our actions and them the "enemy" and assuming they are less honorable in their goals and intentions - and yet on the battle field, soldiers from both sides realize they have family/friends they are concerned for.....that both of them have potentially been thrown into war with no intention/heart to kill others on the other side....and that both, if not doing battle, would be able to sit down/realize how dark war is as well as unecessesary.

But we often forget that those trying to not fight often get punished by their respective sides if/when they realize that they don't have to use violence - for that doesn't fit the narrative both of their sides have of the other not having any redeeming sides to them.

So often people in the West assume others are automatically "wrong" for what they do against us - but if we do the same things to them, we deem it as "patriotism" or "justice" or call others "heroes".....and never realize how no one really wins when war is exalted and lives are taken. Even with enemies who may be doing horrible things, the reality is that those suffering aren't just them - they may've had families who are going to starve or friends who got caught in the cross-fire simply for being associated with them.

And they may've been JUST as complicated as the other soldier on the field...

As believers we don’t get people groups to comply by exercising power over, but power under. ..and I remember what another brother in Christ noted when telling me of how one of his mentors ( Dr. Black ) told him “I pray for the opportunity to wash Bin Laden’s feet“.(as Jesus did for corrupt men in John 13)....rather than the reactionary action of wanting his death when others have been asked what they'd do if they found him.

Can never really have a moment of gloating over the loss of life
Proverbs 24:16-18
For a righteous man may fall seven times
And rise again,
But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
17 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
18 Lest the Lord see it, and it displease Him,
And He turn away His wrath from him.

 
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isshinwhat

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Gxg (G²);64256554 said:
Interestingly enough, it's amazing how many acknowledge that people perish in the heat of the moment due to the ways that reaction time can occur/others are prone to be want to fight regardless - and yet not many acknowledge how many on the other side reacted due to feeling the same about the other side even though both sides may've been willing to seek peace.....and assumed it only of themselves when it came to the best of intentions.

Sometimes that is the case, people feel they have to fight. In fact, one of those situations is a large part of the reason I am Orthodox. The timeframe I was referring to, however, was the time it takes for the threat of violence to take effect; you do not always have time to say, "stop shooting or I will kill you."

It's like having a war go on between those we deem insurgents in a land - calling ourselves the "heroes" in our actions and them the "enemy" and assuming they are less honorable in their goals and intentions - and yet on the battle field, soldiers from both sides realize they have family/friends they are concerned for.....that both of them have potentially been thrown into war with no intention/heart to kill others on the other side....and that both, if not doing battle, would be able to sit down/realize how dark war is as well as unecessesary.

I think you assume too much. I don't doubt their bravery, sincerity, and in some cases even their motivations. I watched a man run from a firefight, reposition and set up with four other men to fire again. As he peered around the corner and we prepared to engage, his 4-6 year old son and some other kids ran from inside the house and hugged him - just like my children do when I get home. Like any decent man, he embraced his son then shooed him back inside to safety. Once the children were back inside, we began firing and killed two of the men. People don't die like they do in the movies; death is ugly. The father who embraced his child took fragmentation to his face and torso as he crawled for cover on all fours. When we hit him, he stood up to run and collapsed in his doorway where someone dragged him inside. He died in his home after being pulled through the same door where his son had just run. I don't know why he fired on the ground forces that day. Did he feel he was protecting his village and family? Had he been lied to about our intentions? Was he filled with hate and just wanted to fight? I don't know... But I pray for him, his family, and the child that had to watch his father die on the floor because he decided to fight that day. I also pray that God forgives me if we chose poorly.

But we often forget that those trying to not fight often get punished by their respective sides if/when they realize that they don't have to use violence - for that doesn't fit the narrative both of their sides have of the other not having any redeeming sides to them.

Sometimes the threat of punishment is there, but not always. The reasons for people going to war are as varied as the men who fight them.

So often people in the West assume others are automatically "wrong" for what they do against us - but if we do the same things to them, we deem it as "patriotism" or "justice" or call others "heroes".....and never realize how no one really wins when war is exalted and lives are taken. Even with enemies who may be doing horrible things, the reality is that those suffering aren't just them - they may've had families who are going to starve or friends who got caught in the cross-fire simply for being associated with them.

And they may've been JUST as complicated as the other soldier on the field...

As believers we don’t get people groups to comply by exercising power over, but power under. ..and I remember what another brother in Christ noted when telling me of how one of his mentors ( Dr. Black ) told him “I pray for the opportunity to wash Bin Laden’s feet“.(as Jesus did for corrupt men in John 13)....rather than the reactionary action of wanting his death when others have been asked what they'd do if they found him.

Can never really have a moment of gloating over the loss of life
Proverbs 24:16-18
For a righteous man may fall seven times
And rise again,
But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
17 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
18 Lest the Lord see it, and it displease Him,
And He turn away His wrath from him.


As I said before, some do dehumanize their opponents; I've seen it on both sides. It is not the case in every circumstance, though. The struggle within, when you live in a place where things which do not make sense happen all around you, is the most difficult part of war... God help us all.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Sometimes that is the case, people feel they have to fight. In fact, one of those situations is a large part of the reason I am Orthodox. The timeframe I was referring to, however, was the time it takes for the threat of violence to take effect; you do not always have time to say, "stop shooting or I will kill you."


.
More than understand - as some moments are purely on instinct and what may've seemed right in the moment. It's no different than being on the streets and being around others seeming to be aggressive - and the moment they do something to you, you hope for the ideal to convince them to do otherwise.....but in the immediate, when it seems to be a quick action, you react and take out the person with the gun or the knife or the person coming at you.
I think you assume too much. I don't doubt their bravery, sincerity, and in some cases even their motivations.
To be clear, I wasn't saying you personally doubted the things they noted - as I was speaking in general and on the basis of other things I've seen others do on the matter. My apologies if that was not clear...

Again, my focus was simply on the larger ways it seems that many tend to dehumanize those who are different than us. In example, people hated oppression in the American Revolution - and yet, if doing the same to an American Indian, as was done systematically/repeatedly for centuries, that was seen as a "heroic" act to the people who approved of it. To spread from "Sea to Shining Sea" (as Manifest Destiny goes) was a mindset that justified the destruction of so many people when it came to colonial expansion...while groups responding in kind were always deemed as "villians" and the people attacked as "innocents"--with those who were initially aggressors being deemed as "heroes" for seeking to address that.

To expand on the dynamic further, If studying U.S History, those in the American revolution are considered “freedom fighters” because of how they as “Americans” fought for their independence from Britain. However, if the British called those in the U.S “Insurgents”, the term would not be accepted gladly. Taking it further, if the Boston Tea Party and the American Revolution were called “acts of terrorism” due to guerilla warfare tatics against the British, would it be deemed as “truthful conversation?” For similar situations today, consider Iraq or other places were an occupation occurred and those fighting back were called “terrorists”/ “rebels” even though they used the same term on the Occupiers.

Who is the terrorists and who is the fighter for liberty? It’s interesting witnessing what happens when one groups fights an invading party after being terrorized….and then are labeled as “terrorists” by those invading…or “insurgents.”

In our times today, Words and phrases euphemistically used by American and British mass media to refer to military operations not only sugar-coat harsh events, but also premeditatedly modify the addressee's correct perception of reality, so that what actually happens is no longer reflected in language. Thus, language becomes deceitful—but good enough for both sides to consider satisfactory.

Something else to consider is principles governing military euphemistic use. Many times, the intention is to minimise the effect that strong words might have on the reader/hearer. It is because of this that military discourse never uses words like "guilt," "murder," "assassination," "retreat," "spy," "torture," "lie," "siege," "mistake," or "invasion," for fear these lexemes might raise awareness of what really happens in the conflict area. The goal is to ensure that the "innocent" public can remain innocent, with sensitivities intact, never knowing the truth even as they may say they would like to have it.

In so doing, language is no longer informational, it becomes a propaganda tool, meant to hide too harsh a reality. By using euphemisms, the military discourse avoids enraging, or outraging the public, unless this is really meant, and makes world conflicts and military activities more agreeable. In the case of military euphemisms, the most important part is played by the media, whose means of manipulation include the use of such terms in order to conceal the truth.

For other examples. consider the terms often used whenever you see things discussed:
—Insurgents (local groups native to the area resisting occupation)

— permissive environment (unchallenging territory from the military point of view)
— border protection (deploying the Navy to intercept boats loaded with desperate Afghans and Iraqis)
— caught in the cross-fire (women and children shot dead by soldiers)
— ethnic cleansing (extermination, genocide)
— administrative detention (imprisonment without charge or trial)
— generous offer (demand for surrender)
— incursion (attacking with tanks and planes)
—air campaign (aircraft bombing)
— civilian casualties (innocent people death),
—Friendly fire (death inadvertently caused to one's own troops) and many others.



For many readers/hearers, these words are not loaded unless given in a context pertaining to the conflict situation in hostile areas such as the Middle East, the Persian Gulf or other places

All this is mentioned in order to emphasize the point that just as terms can be a bit misleading, so the term "hero" can also be put out of place....as well as "innocents." In example, I admire others who were victims of the slave trade, although that doesn't mean I think all slaves were "innocent" or incapable of doing the same brutality as was done to them.

 
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Gxg (G²)

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Originally Posted by isshinwhat

I watched a man run from a firefight, reposition and set up with four other men to fire again. As he peered around the corner and we prepared to engage, his 4-6 year old son and some other kids ran from inside the house and hugged him - just like my children do when I get home. Like any decent man, he embraced his son then shooed him back inside to safety. Once the children were back inside, we began firing and killed two of the men. People don't die like they do in the movies; death is ugly.

Indeed, death is ugly.....and not glamorious - which is a pity for many not seeing it when they champion war and want to engage in it as if it's romantic and a matter of not having both sides lose. It's the same dynamic when others glorify the Streets/"thug/ganster" culture in the media as if it's something to run to based on the videos, despite how many kids have died because of it......and yet it's sad to witness due to how people in that culture relate to those doing those actions since they were seen as the people standing up for themselves against oppression/neglect and they wanted to be warriors. Having had family/friends who died from that (one being a Marine murdered by his cousin in the hood over an altercation - even though the Marine had sought to leave that violent lifestyle), it's something I'll never take lightly.

There was a documentary I referenced on the issue - pretty intense, but true when it comes to how things are and the reasons many men exalt the outlaw/violent man (like the Western films) who defends himself and gets what he wants by aggression...due to feeling stripped of value and feeling like they have to do whatever it is that they have to do to take care of their loved ones, family and friends....​



As much as others ironically deem many of those who are violent as ignorant thugs, it's amazing how not many remember or realize their humanity. In example, one can consider 50 Cent. Was processing years ago on what another noted when saying "The fact that people think that 50 is way too smart for his audience is a testament to what they think of his audience, meanwhile a large portion of his audience have the same intelligence, they just wrongfully choose to channel it into less productive outlets because SOME of them were not given the same opportunities"....

And seeing how the man has his son do mandatory reading assignments/reading one book every couple of weeks (with he himself reading complex reads like "The Art of War" and other thing) - even writing a lot of best selling books himself (as well as being known for thinking like a Harvard Business man) - I'm amazed seeing the duality that can come with figures.

Folks who did not enjoy him have often noted how the man is reaching out to others for what he wants just as others do so in reverse - both sides seeking to do so with intelligence, regardless of the message. In Youth Ministry, this comes up often whenever folks ignore the things that young adults are being attracted to and never asking themselves what it is that's really attracting them with the message (as well as the method) - and although the method is not to become the message nor is it always the case that the content/style of presentation used to promote something is something you HAVE to imitate in order to connect, it doesn't hurt to study why connection occurs...and perhaps see if you can develop innovative ways of connection by expanding your own realm of study.

Back in 2012, I was reading an article in JET Magazine on 50 Cent/his relationship with his son and book on bullying he wrote from the perspective of bullies. Specifically, 50 - rough as he was - sought to go address bullying in his book ‘Playground’ (more shared here, here, here, and here ). Had no idea he did so ...and I really had to pause in reflection of the fact that you don't have to agree with someone in order to respect them where they're at...and remember that they're human. 50 noted he was inspired to write this project based on a conversation with his son. He said "He was telling about someone else who was experiencing being bullied around him, and in order to explain the scenario, I had to explain it from the actual bully's perspective and say that he's dealing with his emotions the wrong way. The main character in the book is an individual known as Butterball, "who's dealing with multiple issues," 50 explained. "He's dealing with weight issues: He's overweight, and you know how common childhood obesity is right now." He later added: "Bullying doesn't necessarily mean hitting or physically hurting someone. It can be something that you say that emotionally hurts the person." Playground" tells the story from the bully's perspective and attempts to explore where the cycle of abuse begins. The "Before I Self Destruct" MC also found inspiration in another book: Jeff Kinney's "Diary of a Wimpy Kid" series.

Whether one likes him or not, the man is representative of undercover geniuses walking around not looking like the image you would expect - and a reminder of how often people have more to them than what they portray. Reminded me of a lot of folks in the inner-city I worked with in street ministry that others said were "ignorant" and hated because of rough attitudes - and yet those individuals were HIGHLY intelligent/had brilliant insights, but those things couldn't be seen easily because of the hurts and pains they experienced/played out in their rough interactions and lack of concern for others.

Hurting people will always hurt people - and some of the same people you hurt for could be reflections of the same folks who may be hurting you/others you love (even though it's not seen as easily). Can't stand his music/the impact it has had - but mad props to 50 for some of the unique/radical ways he has evolved and challenges the stereotype of how rappers want to raise their families. I know what his lyrics say, and I know his history before he became famous, but to think, deep down, there's a guy that just wants what you and I want....purpose and love.

Just like it is on the battlefield - as I've heard other soliders note. The issue of how what happens on the battlefield abroad and what happens in battlefields on the streets/inner-city seem to interconnect, IMHO.

People fail to remember - when it comes to those who are violent - the complexity present in their own struggles on wanting to let things go. Folks often see others in the industry and think they're just always gonna be the negative image they are - or that they want to retain that image just because it's what makes money. But people are human regardless of where they're at....and they have doubts/fears and pain just like anyone else. Some who are famous for negative images are far from wanting that on the inside - and the amount of stories I've heard on musicians/artists who'd be on stage one week and yet crying themselves to sleep at night or wanting to kill themselves.....it's so easy to dehumanize people as being less than what they are.

There was actually a documentary that had similar dynamics on ways 50 was trying to change himself I came across years ago (around the 2010 timeframe I think) - as it showed 50 on a TV show I was watching that documented the origins of others..and he was shocked seeing the roots of his ancestors in slavery and how he didn't appreciate what they did all the time.


With 50, a lot of folks seem to think that he (and so many others in Hip Hop) are dumb due to some of the violent/hoodlum portrayals they give in the media and the lifestyles they lived - and yet what others don't consider is that intelligence doesn't always equate to good character.....and many of the most skilled individuals had some of the most brutish character. Genghis Khan (from an impoverished, illiterate and isolated youth) was deemed to be highly brutal in his dealings - yet he was also one of the most brilliant men who ever lived and one who contributed to many of the things we utilized today in society - whether that be in promoting a meritocracy and creating the first efficient mail system/ Pony Express or popularizing pants (much better for horseback riding).a post office, diplomatic immunity, a network of international toll roads, eyeglasses, passports, paper money and a host of other innovations in what was by far the largest empire in the history of the world.

It really does come in handy when knowing the background of the people so that we don't end up forgetting the ways that people can be a paradox - like men who love or tend to go to violence and yet do amazing things. With the example of 50, there's a reason others connect with the image of 50 despite his violent steak seen in music, even though they may go with others. There was actually an excellent short documentary film examining the contrasting styles of manhood exhibited by President Barack Obama and Rapper/Mogul Curtis Jackson...showing the diversity in images of leadership and why others seem to relate more to one group than another

Barack & Curtis: Manhood, Power & Respect
 
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Gxg (G²)

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The father who embraced his child took fragmentation to his face and torso as he crawled for cover on all fours. When we hit him, he stood up to run and collapsed in his doorway where someone dragged him inside. He died in his home after being pulled through the same door where his son had just run. I don't know why he fired on the ground forces that day. Did he feel he was protecting his village and family? Had he been lied to about our intentions? Was he filled with hate and just wanted to fight? I don't know... But I pray for him, his family, and the child that had to watch his father die on the floor because he decided to fight that day. I also pray that God forgives me if we chose poorly.

.

Real talk - and definitely not something anyone should take lightly...
Sometimes the threat of punishment is there, but not always. The reasons for people going to war are as varied as the men who fight them.
Very true. Things are not always so simple....

And yet, it must always be remembered that when war does happen, it's not something to rejoice over just as it is with violence:​


562359_366811180090635_343173645_n.jpg
As I said before, some do dehumanize their opponents; I've seen it on both sides. It is not the case in every circumstance, though. The struggle within, when you live in a place where things which do not make sense happen all around you, is the most difficult part of war... God help us all
:prayer:
 
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Brother Bread

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I don't think fighting wars for secular reasons is Christ's will. But giving your life to save another is Christ's example to us. Some would stand by while there wife was taken advantage of by an invading army and say that they were pacifist . But I feel that as Christ gave His life for His Bride the Church we should give our life to save our bride and children. but to fight on this side or that side of some secular war (the only kind of war) is not Gods will for the Christian.
 
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inconsequential

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I had 2 uncles who fought in WWII. My uncle Hubert arrived in France on D-Day. I personally never heard him speak of the war but my cousin, his grandson said he talked about it sometimes when he was drinking. He said that regular Wehrmacht soldiers would sometimes surrender but that SS never did, they would fight to the death.

My uncle Hollis was in artillery and didn't see a lot of bloody, face to face fighting so he wasn't as loathe to talk about the things he saw. He told of being camped near a winery and sneaking in and getting wine in fuel jugs for the men. He heard something as he was leaving and saw some German soldiers running away with wine. He said they could have killed him but were just getting wine like he was. He also told of meeting Wehrmacht prisoners who hated Hitler but were stuck fighting because he had gotten them into war and they were forced to fight. He even had a prisoner ask to speak with his commanding officer once. Turned out the guy was a first generation American BORN in Indiana but conscripted into the German army while visiting family in Germany.

What got me to thinking about them was how uncle Hollis, who was a very pious Baptist his whole life, told about helping Italian townspeople who were very appreciative after they realized that the Americans weren't going to run through the towns, raping and pillaging as they were told to expect. How many died fighting the Allies simply because they were told they would do those things. I'd certainly fight against invading troops if I believed they would harm my family.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I don't think fighting wars for secular reasons is Christ's will. But giving your life to save another is Christ's example to us. Some would stand by while there wife was taken advantage of by an invading army and say that they were pacifist . But I feel that as Christ gave His life for His Bride the Church we should give our life to save our bride and children. but to fight on this side or that side of some secular war (the only kind of war) is not Gods will for the Christian.
Good point and distinctions...

And on what you were speaking on, there was actually an excellent discussion on the subject that may be of benefit - it's a Debate on "Should Christians Fight?" ....entitled "It's Just War" - Should Christians Fight? Debate on Vimeo

Speaking in favor of Christians engaging in just war:

  • Peter Kreeft (Ph.D. Fordham University) is professor of philosophy at Boston College. He is the author of over 67 books on philosophy, theology and Christian apologetics. A gifted thinker and speaker, he speaks at universities and churches all over the world. He draws inspiration from influential figures such as Socrates, Thomas Aquinas, and C. S. Lewis. His books include a Handbook of Christian Apologetics (InterVarsity Press, 1994), Making Sense Out of Suffering (Ignatius, 1993), and Socrates Meets Jesus (InterVarsity Press, 2010).

  • J. Daryl Charles (Ph.D., Westminster Theological Seminary) has written over twelve books on ethics, Christian engagement in the public square, and just war. He is widely regarded as a leading authority on the Christian just war tradition. His books include Between Pacifism and Jihad (InterVarsity Press Academic, 2009), War, Peace, and Christianity (Crossway, 2010), and The Just War Tradition (Intercollegiate Studies, 2012).

Speaking against Christians in war are:

  • David Bercot is an attorney (J.D., Baylor University), author, and speaker. He has numerous books on the subject of the early church, where he emphasizes the simplicity of biblical doctrine and early (pre-325 AD) Christian teaching over what he would call the complex and compromised body of theological understandings built up over the centuries that have come to be thought of as orthodoxy. His most well known books are Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up? (Scroll Publishing, 1989), and A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs (Hendrickson, 1998).
  • Dean Taylor and his wife Tania were both in the U. S. Army when they realized that, as committed Christians, they had to come to grip with Jesus' teachings in the Sermon on the Mount on loving one's enemies. They ultimately left the Army in a new and sincere quest for truth, determined to follow Jesus Christ under the banner "no compromise." Mr. Taylor is a widely sought speaker who regularly addresses the question, "What if Jesus really meant every word He said?" His best known book is A Change of Allegiance (Radical Reformation, 2008)
.​
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I had 2 uncles who fought in WWII. My uncle Hubert arrived in France on D-Day. I personally never heard him speak of the war but my cousin, his grandson said he talked about it sometimes when he was drinking. He said that regular Wehrmacht soldiers would sometimes surrender but that SS never did, they would fight to the death.

My uncle Hollis was in artillery and didn't see a lot of bloody, face to face fighting so he wasn't as loathe to talk about the things he saw. He told of being camped near a winery and sneaking in and getting wine in fuel jugs for the men. He heard something as he was leaving and saw some German soldiers running away with wine. He said they could have killed him but were just getting wine like he was. He also told of meeting Wehrmacht prisoners who hated Hitler but were stuck fighting because he had gotten them into war and they were forced to fight. He even had a prisoner ask to speak with his commanding officer once. Turned out the guy was a first generation American BORN in Indiana but conscripted into the German army while visiting family in Germany.

What got me to thinking about them was how uncle Hollis, who was a very pious Baptist his whole life, told about helping Italian townspeople who were very appreciative after they realized that the Americans weren't going to run through the towns, raping and pillaging as they were told to expect. How many died fighting the Allies simply because they were told they would do those things. I'd certainly fight against invading troops if I believed they would harm my family.

AMazing how people are trained to react to reactions - thinking the side deemed to be the enemy is disconnected from them and yet never considering those nuances that you noted like others being forced to fight or not wishing to fight.....and not realizing that others who fight may do so due to having the wrong impression.
 
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isshinwhat

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More people are aware of those nuances than you think. Those nuances are at the heart of counterinsurgency.

They are why PRTs exist: Provincial Reconstruction Team - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They are why FETs exist: Female engagement teams: who they are and why they do it | Article | The United States Army

They are why CJSOTF operates the way it does: USSOF Provides Veterinary Support to Badghis Livestock Owners | ISAF - International Security Assistance Force

That being said, though most of us are aware of those nuances; they drive our overall planning and rules of engagement for instance, the immediate reasons a person is trying to kill someone are not as important for most people as preventing them from carrying that desire out. You do what you can to prevent that desire from festering, but once they act the clock is ticking and failure to act is deadly.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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More people are aware of those nuances than you think. Those nuances are at the heart of counterinsurgency.
They are why PRTs exist: Provincial Reconstruction Team - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They are why FETs exist: Female engagement teams: who they are and why they do it | Article | The United States Army

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Didn't say (nor was it assumed) that not many people were aware of it - thus, there's no need saying that more people are aware than I think.

If I misunderstood what you meant, my bad - as online communication can be difficult many times.

Nonetheless, on what you said, there are still PLENTY who do not and who speak as such all the time.....and still make generalizations that do not reflect nor justify (even on a Biblical basis, for believers) saying that it's always a matter of their being no choice in many cases.

Talking to soldiers who note the same reality (grandparents included), it is something that is never a simple issue.

That being said, though most of us are aware of those nuances; they drive our overall planning and rules of engagement for instance, the immediate reasons a person is trying to kill someone are not as important for most people as preventing them from carrying that desire out. You do what you can to prevent that desire from festering, but once they act the clock is ticking and failure to act is deadly.
There's also the reality that there's often misunderstanding of desire and that's a reason many chose not to act and noted it to prevent deadly action that they used to think was the only way to handle issues...
 
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isshinwhat

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Gxg (G²);64266287 said:
Didn't say (nor was it assumed) that not many people were aware of it - thus, there's no need saying that more people are aware than I think.

Just a turn of phrase from the area I was raised... I appreciate the discussion. Take care.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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:preach:
one of the reasons St Alexander Nevsky is a saint, is because he defended his homeland from invaders. St Davit the Builder as well.
Concerning what you said..as it came to mind recently...

Even as it concerns non-Orthodox individuals (as discussed here and here ), I'd note that even they could be within the category of being saints for defending their homelands or others when it comes to justice. Was studying up on this recently and saw one example that really stood out to me - in regards to how the ‘Lone Ranger’ look doesn't get shown for what it was - as the person I was investigating was Bass Reeves.






I'm amazed seeing how U.S. Deputy Marshal, Bass Reeves, made his mark as "a true champion of the American West" in bringing law and order to the post Civil War West....and one very bad brotha (i.e. defied the odds by surviving slavery, immersed himself in Native American culture, learned to live on/navigate the land in Oklahoma, was the first African American U.S Marshal - and in his 32 year career became the most decorated marshal of his time).....arresting over 3,000 criminals (more than Wyatt Earp), and killing only 14 (7 more than Wild Bill Hickock), without ever being wounded.


The REAL True Grit.....

Reeve's great nephew ( Federal Judge Paul Brady) had this to say about Marshal Reeves and why he took up a career in law enforcement with Judge Isaac Parker - as noted in the biographical work by Art T. Burton entitled "Black Gun, Silver Star: The Life and Legend of Frontier Marshal Bass Reeves" :
Some have argued that Reeves was the best deputy to ever wear a badge. And others are amazed at the fact that he did what he did due to his faith in Christ (reminding me of others I know doing the same - and amazing testimony in integrity for others today and a good reminder on how "the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." ( Romans 13:3-5 )

Blessings...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I'd certainly fight against invading troops if I believed they would harm my family.
All of us would do things we'd not think we were able to do if cornered....and so glad for the Grace/Mercy of the Lord in the matter.
 
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