Monks/Monastics vs Military Might: Is Self-Defense against Perversion Right?

AV1

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On, Nat Turner...

I would likely have done what he did, much sooner. As an academic exercise, let's remember a few things before we decide.

First of all, his "confession" was written by a white slave owner, and I believe the contents of which were not vetted by any witnesses, who if there were any, would have been white slave owners. Gray wrote the confession in first person...very odd for someone interested in the facts of methodology. The voice was intentional, likely to create bias in the reader. By most accounts Turner was literate, leading one to think that he would have written his confession, had he intended to give one.

Second, the precursor circumstances of the uprising are not known. What happened immediately before the revolt? Why then? Why so violent? This of course assumes that the number of persons involved on both sides is accurate, which by historical record is not conclusive.

Last. What were the conditions of slavery? Beatings, rapes, torture, theft of labor and profit, terrible living conditions. One could easily argue self defense in today's day and age. If a situation existed where a person or group of people were being treated in such a way TODAY, and they killed their oppressors...self defense would be plausible and viewed much differently by society at large. It has happened many times, though to different degrees.

Take for instance the wife, beaten and raped by her husband, who witnesses her children being subject to the same. She kills her husband while he sleeps...HERO.

History is written by the victors, and I am not ashamed to say, that if I had been black, a slave, and saw my family abused on that level...I could have been Nat Turner.
 
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inconsequential

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On, Nat Turner...

I would likely have done what he did, much sooner. As an academic exercise, let's remember a few things before we decide.

First of all, his "confession" was written by a white slave owner, and I believe the contents of which were not vetted by any witnesses, who if there were any, would have been white slave owners. Gray wrote the confession in first person...very odd for someone interested in the facts of methodology. The voice was intentional, likely to create bias in the reader. By most accounts Turner was literate, leading one to think that he would have written his confession, had he intended to give one.

Second, the precursor circumstances of the uprising are not known. What happened immediately before the revolt? Why then? Why so violent? This of course assumes that the number of persons involved on both sides is accurate, which by historical record is not conclusive.

Last. What were the conditions of slavery? Beatings, rapes, torture, theft of labor and profit, terrible living conditions. One could easily argue self defense in today's day and age. If a situation existed where a person or group of people were being treated in such a way TODAY, and they killed their oppressors...self defense would be plausible and viewed much differently by society at large. It has happened many times, though to different degrees.

Take for instance the wife, beaten and raped by her husband, who witnesses her children being subject to the same. She kills her husband while he sleeps...HERO.

History is written by the victors, and I am not ashamed to say, that if I had been black, a slave, and saw my family abused on that level...I could have been Nat Turner.

I'm with you all the way. It's the killing of women and children that I find unjustifiable. He very well may not have done any of that himself and as the "leader" of a mob, been powerless to stop it.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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On, Nat Turner...

I would likely have done what he did, much sooner. As an academic exercise, let's remember a few things before we decide.

First of all, his "confession" was written by a white slave owner, and I believe the contents of which were not vetted by any witnesses, who if there were any, would have been white slave owners. Gray wrote the confession in first person...very odd for someone interested in the facts of methodology. The voice was intentional, likely to create bias in the reader. By most accounts Turner was literate, leading one to think that he would have written his confession, had he intended to give one.
.
Very good point - as it concerns the reality that it was never really seen to be Turner writing what was taken as a confession against him. And when seeing his actions, it is interesting to consider how often that fact is minimized....

Second, the precursor circumstances of the uprising are not known. What happened immediately before the revolt? Why then? Why so violent? This of course assumes that the number of persons involved on both sides is accurate, which by historical record is not conclusive.
Indeed - people assume the revolt was planned to turn out as violent as it did - but there's no evidence of why there was such a reaction......and, for that matter, what was originally planned before action was taken.
Last. What were the conditions of slavery? Beatings, rapes, torture, theft of labor and profit, terrible living conditions.
Murder is another one I'd place on the list, seeing how frequently that occurred as well. From the Middle Passage/slaves killed in the time before auction to others torn to pieces by dogs when they ran away as well as being forced to see loved ones killed many times.

It was on the same level as any of the genocides happening today in many parts of the world where the worst of human experience is shown.
One could easily argue self defense in today's day and age. If a situation existed where a person or group of people were being treated in such a way TODAY, and they killed their oppressors...self defense would be plausible and viewed much differently by society at large. It has happened many times, though to different degrees.
Some, of course, argue that the actions taken by the slaves in violent reaction were always a matter of error...but I disagree. Truly, there are many key figures within history who sought to address the issue for what it was when it came to noting the utter hypocrisy in believers claiming the right to bear arms in the American Revolution - and yet not applying that same logic to the slaves or abused blacks (or Native Americans) when it came to their situations.

People often get mad at the individual for noting this - but the reason why one of my favorite historical figures of the 20th century - Malcom X - said what he did was due to the fact that so many were wrongly claiming that violence was wrong and yet they only did so AFTER they were violent to others (which was a part of his uniting others all over the planet going through the same experience).....and then they'd claim the name of Christ.

Truthfully, I may disagree with much of the theological system he grew up in - but I can understand much of where he was coming from and I'm glad he noted it during the time he did with showing the ways others were psychologically trained to not be able to respond with the same means others brought upon them.

Ironically, it should be noted that many of the things Malcolm noted of others in his day who were white (when it came to what was being told to blacks in order to make them comply with the system) were things that other whites told one another - and thus, I often take things he has said and apply them to oppressed groups whenever there's a dominant group oppressing and trying to justify it.


It is an experience common to humanity - and noted by many, from W.E.B Debois to Sojourner Truth to Harriet Tubman to Fredrick Douglass to Martin Luther King and Malcolm X as well as many others. And as ironic as it was when seeing the ways Christianity was sadly used to further many evils, it is amazing how often the image of Christ/submission was utilized to influence others into thinking it was their destiny to go along with such things.
Outside of blacks, we can see this plainly in events such as Manifest Destiny and in light of what occurred in the name of God/the Gospel to Native Americans - as well as First Nations Groups around the world that were eradicated/silenced for the sake of gaining land (be it in the Americas - or even what occurred in places like Austraila with the Aboriginal people in their treatment )....and with the rise of the Industrial revolution, when Social Darwinism impacted economic realities as many children/women and others in poverty were regulated to slums while others claimed the Lord meant for them to become poor. ......and rven with other developments in U.S history as with the 18th-19th centuries, when ethnic groups around the world were impacted (such as the Chinese indentured workers who helped build the U.S Railroad System) and severely mistreated.


For many blacks noting the violence done to them by whites, it should be noted that even whites have experienced the same amongst one another - at the SAME time as blacks. I'm reminded of what occurred in Europe, as there were raids by European groups onto others - one of the reasons why many fled to the New World and why others were often enslaved. I am reminded of the experiences of the Dark Irish (whom many deem to have a mixture in ancestry with the Spanish and others from the Iberian Peninsula) and the Irish in general.

The 'dark Irish' were set off (and the Tinkers without regard for color), and the Irish were likewise 'set apart' by the Brits as being less human. In England, these "native Irish " suffered something very similar to American slavery under English Penal Laws. If aware of Thomas Nast’s 19th-century anti-Irish cartoons, it's hard not to consider the ways Irish were often treated the same as Blacks. Many have taken issue when it comes to noting many crimes which England has YET to acknowledge in its own history...including many Irish war prisoners wrongly sent into slavery.

There was an excellent book on the issue as the concept of "white" was not something universally shared by many European groups who are deemed such today......and there are a LOT of factors going into things For more, one can check out the book entitled "How the Isrish Became White"





One can read the book at this resource if interested. For an excellent review on the book, one can consider going here to Review of “How the Irish Became White” | The End of Capitalism

....All of that is noted simply to point out the reality that in many respects, the experience of Nat Turner is not one that was limited to blacks alone when it comes to self-defense and reaction toward mistreatment by other men....but one where the theme is truly universal - and others must wrestle with seeing how far they'd go to ensure they were free if they were pushed down by another wrongly ....or whether they'd acknowledge others in the same experience as being proper/able to do as they do if they were battling rather than assuming only their group could act a certain way.

Take for instance the wife, beaten and raped by her husband, who witnesses her children being subject to the same. She kills her husband while he sleeps...HERO.
Some would still say she was a villain for not seeking to see the husband changed first. But then again, Hollywood always seems to play on that theme often. Films like "Enough" with Jenifer Lopez or Tyler Perry's Madea films (which often show the abused black woman fighting back physically against things like domestic abuse in order to show her rights as a human being - such as here, here and here ) and others come to mind.

And for others, it has even been suggested that a godly woman would be one who submitted to such abuse (even in the event of death being present) - something I've always found to be highly problematic. Of course I'm talking about the form of self-defense that allows for going STRAIGHT for violence the moment any altercation occurs and it's assumed that violence is the solution - but it is highly problematic to witness how many women were either abused physically or raped and mistreated (especially if not supporting their husbands) throughout history and it was never even questioned.

It was as if a woman had to put up with such treatment. Working in Human Services, I'm shocked by how we already have EXTENSIVE amounts of domestic violence (including in Christian homes in the West) when it comes to the status of women in the West. See it all the time working in Social Work and some of the cases I've had to hear - especially when it comes to others in churches justifying terrorizing the women physically (As well as financially by threatening to kick her out of the home/keep the money from here) are heart-breaking...some even using the OT (with beating a slave woman or other things present) to justify - and the same with divorce justified under being under grace.

Many during the era of Jim Crow were ROUNTINELY harrarssed/raped by white men due to the image of those who were black...and the same with Native American women - as is still occurring today. And when it happens today, it's amazing how many will claim the name of Christ and yet cry out "Well, at least we're not the Muslims who allow all types of abuse to happen to their women!!!" (even though abuse is not a universal in Islam and many have long spoken out against it)
History is written by the victors, and I am not ashamed to say, that if I had been black, a slave, and saw my family abused on that level...I could have been Nat Turner
Indeed..

I could've been him as well....
 
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Gxg (G²)

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History is written by the victors, and I am not ashamed to say, that if I had been black, a slave, and saw my family abused on that level...I could have been Nat Turner.
Technically, the same experiences done that black slaves had were very much in line with other experiences that others throughout the OT had as well....even though that is a point of wrestling through.

When it comes to violence done in the name of the Lord, I'm reminded of this scripture:
Numbers 25

6 Then an Israelite man brought into the camp a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 7 When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 8 and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear into both of them, right through the Israelite man and into the woman’s stomach. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped; 9 but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000.

10 The LORD said to Moses, 11 “Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, has turned my anger away from the Israelites. Since he was as zealous for my honor among them as I am, I did not put an end to them in my zeal. .

Phinehas was willing to kill if he felt it would glorify the Lord in His Holiness and advancing what he knew to be true of the Kingdom...and some of this is similar to what happened in Biblical history when there were others that were fighters seeking to defend what they felt was the faith. I find it interesting, for many others talking on how Christ was never backing violence, that he ( as an observant Jew) was actually celebrating a holiday in Jewish culture (Hanukkah/Festival of Lights in John 10) dedicated to the account of Maccabees where Jewish revolutionaries resisted Greek suppression/oppression - one which the Zealots supported and kept in mind when they resisted (even though the Lord may've had a differing emphasis than they did - more noted in #126/ #46 )


With the Zealots of scripture, as the Zealots had a different view of serving God that their sister group the Pharisees..., it really hits home with me when realizing how many of them were devout priests who were willing to act on Violence whereas other priests/holy men avoided it...and the Zealots, although others may disagree with them, were men seeking to do what they felt was honorable.

More on the Zealots can be discussed here. As said best by one organization I've followed over the years:
A popular Pharisee named Zadok, also from Galilee, supported Judah. The Zealot movement was founded. The well-known Pharisee Gamliel recorded the early history of Judah and his movement. Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered (see Acts 5:37). He was probably killed by Herod Antipas, who also murdered John the Baptist (Matt. 14:1-12).

Both Judas and Zadok were devoted to the Torah as the only guide for righteous living before God. They based their zeal for God on the action of Phinehas, Aaron's son, recorded in Numbers 25:7-13. Phinehas is praised for his zeal, which imitated the zeal of God (Num. 25:11,13). The fact that Phinehas, a priest of God, used a spear became the basis for what Zealots considered a divine command to use violent action to defend God's name and destroy unfaithfulness to Torah among the Jewish people. This interpretation would lead to a long history of violent acts against Rome and brutal conflict between the Zealots and the Jews they believed cooperated with the pagan empire.

The philosophy of the Zealot movement was that there was only one God, and Israel was to serve him alone; the Torah and other writings of the Bible were the only guide to righteous living; and serving the emperor in any way, whether in worship, slavery, or paying taxes, was apostasy against God. Josephus, who knew the Zealots, described their passion for freedom as unconquerable because they would serve no one but God. Violent resistance was considered a God-ordained responsibility since they believed God was on their side, they knew that they would triumph in the end. This led to their reputation for incredible bravery and tolerance for suffering.

The Zealots lived by the strictest conformity to the Torah. In addition, they refused to acknowledge anyone as king, since "you shall have no other gods" (Ex. 20:3).


TTW-tran-3-15-bg.jpg

Zealots are truly amazing...and in reading the scriptures, I've found it interesting to see how not all things associated with them were counter to Christ. I'm reminded of others such as Simon the Zealot ( Luke 6:14-16 / Luke 6 / Matthew 10:3-5 / Matthew 10 /Mark 3:17-19 Mark 3 ), who was the "terrorist" of the apostolic group (and most likely a problem, especially when dealing with tax-collectors and understanding the History between them and the Zealots..already against government in a myriad of ways ).




simon+icon+2.jpg



He (Christ) had many diverse individuals apart of His inner circle---despite how BOTH sides had significant issue with the other, with Zealots wishing to overthrow Rome and feeling as if Tax-Collectors had "Sold out".

Considering the fact that Jesus opposed violent rebellion against Rome, many probably wondered why Jesus would choose such a fellow.....and adding to that is the irony in how Matthew was a tax collector. Tax collectors were very much in league with Rome. There were probably no two groups of Jews in Palestine who hated each other more than the tax collectors and the zealots. Yet, Jesus chose one of each. Most people probably would have been afraid that these two fellows would kill each other...but the Lord wasn’t. For he understood that the kingdom of God was more powerful than the hatred of men. And the very fact Jesus chose two men so opposite in their worldviews was a demonstration of its power.

And perhaps Christ chose Simon due to family relation--making the issue more close to home. For in the Gospels, some feel Simon the Zealot is identified with Simon the "brother" of Jesus mentioned in Gospel of Mark 6:3 :
Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us? —
Some things to consider.... Simon was called a "Zealot" in his lifestyle before ministry with Jesus, probably a member of the Zealot party, which was a party determined to overthrow Roman Domination in Palestine. Interestingly enough, the "Zealot" term is still used for the man AFTER Christ rose from the Grave, Acts 1:12-14 .IMHO, it gives room to indicate that even after being in the midst of Jesus, that which he may have been known for was probably with him to one degree or another---such as still possibly wishing for Rome to be overthrown or having sympathies for those against Roman Oppression. When considering how the man died, there are many traditions. One tradition states that he traveled in the Middle East and Africa. Christian Ethiopians claim that he was crucified in Samaria, while Justus Lipsius writes that he was sawn in half at Suanir, Persia. However, Moses of Chorene writes that he was martyred at Weriosphora in Caucasian Iberia. Tradition also claims he died peacefully at Edessa. Another tradition says he visited Britain -- possibly Glastonbury -- and was martyred in Caistor, modern-day Lincolnshire.

Another interesting tradition, doubtless inspired by his title "the Zealot", states that he was involved in a Jewish revolt against the Romans, which was brutally suppressed in A.D 70. If the last tradition is true, it'd make his character interesting.


If knowing of the work by Robert Eisenman (Eisenman 1997 pp 33-4), he pointed out the contemporary talmudic references to Zealots as kanna'im "but not really as a group — rather as avenging priests in the Temple." For more info, one can look up the work entitled James the Brother of Jesus : The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls. (Viking Penguin). But on Simon, when Jesus called him, nowhere is there sign that there was an immediate change over night..especially considering how often they argued amongst themselves...

And since we already have record of other priests within the OT who were like the Zealots - as with2 Kings 11, in regards to how Jehoiada the priest protected the young king Joash from his evil grandmother (who killed off all her grand-children/children in order to rule the throne ) and started a coup d'état against the evil Queen after gathering forces/strength, eventually killing the evil queen and restoring the true heir to the throne ( 2 Kings 11:8 , 2 Chronicles 23:6 , etc.) - I must wonder...

It all goes back to the dynamic of understanding the Biblical purpose behind violence - and seeing what kind of eschatology one should have when it comes to the views we have the End Times and how believers should act.

For many, the themes of violence to address injustice within the OT are a sign of what God was doing in that era as a means of working with the culture where others were at and how they understood things in harsh times - while the NT era is one of the Lord showing His dream for humanity.....His ideal - even though he never changed his views specifically in regards to the necessity of violence at certain times since the Hall of Faith (Hebrews 11) is full of others who grew up experiencing that.

For some good review on the matter/thoughtful debate - in regards to the Christus Victor view that many in the early body of believers held to as an influence for how we should act with violence/non-violence - I thought these were some good places for study:


 
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Gxg (G²)

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I'm with you all the way. It's the killing of women and children that I find unjustifiable. He very well may not have done any of that himself and as the "leader" of a mob, been powerless to stop it.
I think someone like Nat Turner may very well had not planned on others (in his name) doing to women/children what they did - as has often occurred in other movements.

For often people whom you wish to free tend to go further in what you were intending - and then your name gets dragged into it since you were associated with them (similar to others assuming that Martin Luther or Calvin approved of others - in their name and based supposedly on their theology against aspects of the Catholic Church - somehow being able to go around burning churches in the name of addressing Biblical error).

But then again, there's much we do not know with someone like Nat Turner - and in some situations, it could've been similar to today when on the battlefield and facing combatants who you don't wish to fight. If someone is a teen or a child with a gun and they're coming at you in battle, what do you do? Not harm the child physically or leave them alone to do damage? Many soldiers have noted how tough of a decision it was when at war - and yet they noted the reality of how things change when in combat and seeing others you'd deem as not being able to be a part of the conflict ACTIVELY engaged/forcing a response...

I have to wonder if Turner faced the same when it came to other kids choosing to use violence (i.e. guns/weapons - if trained by parents) chose to be a part of putting the slave rebellion down and the slaves reacted in the heat of the moment....not taking time to say "Well, this is a child so they can't do anything." Children were not necessarily the same in all respects as they are today since manhood began earlier than today and they were were ready to handle a lot more dangers than many in our times.....and yet, when blacks did certain actions toward them in response, it was magnified as if the person whom a black responded to was absolutely "harmless."

I am not saying all those women/children harmed in Turner's rebellion were not innocent - but I do wonder, based on who testified to the facts and confession - if things were really as one-sided as they seem.

I would love sometime to ask someone like Fr. Moses Berry (very passionate on the issue of slavery and seeing how the black experience in it was connected to Eastern Christianity) what his thoughts would be on someone like Nat Turner. ...as his work on other aspects of the African Diaspora lead me to believe he would be an excellent source of information on the matter.
 
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inconsequential

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It's all too easy to look at these events through the lens of our time and society without considering the deeper social and cultural factors that had so much effect on them and how those factors have changed over time. Context truly IS critical to understanding why people did many of the things they did.

Sometimes looking at how people have treated each other throughout history and how we still treat each other, makes it very difficult not to despair. Misanthropy is such an appealing option. I was recently visiting with a friend and the discussion turned to racial issues and how "White people always do this" or "Black people always do that" and the typical divisive stuff that Satan feeds us that we so greedily gobble up. I listened till I couldn't stomach any more and growled angrily, "It's not Black or White, it's ******* PEOPLE that are the problem!" They all looked shocked like it had never occurred to them that it's what we have in common that makes us treat each other so badly rather than our differences.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It's all too easy to look at these events through the lens of our time and society without considering the deeper social and cultural factors that had so much effect on them and how those factors have changed over time.
Very true - and interestingly enough, if given enough time, others will look back on our era and wrestle with the same questions we do today as we look back into times before us and process how to see things.

Curious, of course, as to which cultural factors you had in mind as having so much of an effect.

Context truly IS critical to understanding why people did many of the things they did.
So true..

Sometimes looking at how people have treated each other throughout history and how we still treat each other, makes it very difficult not to despair. Misanthropy is such an appealing option. I was recently visiting with a friend and the discussion turned to racial issues and how "White people always do this" or "Black people always do that" and the typical divisive stuff that Satan feeds us that we so greedily gobble up. I listened till I couldn't stomach any more and growled angrily, "It's not Black or White, it's ******* PEOPLE that are the problem!" They all looked shocked like it had never occurred to them that it's what we have in common that makes us treat each other so badly rather than our differences.
I'd have to see the original context of the conversation in order to really understand what was going on - seeing how many have often reacted when talking about a historical reality (i.e. "The experience of most blacks in America..." or "Most whites in this era and today tend to experience this...") that seems to impact, while others speak in stereotypes for groups which are not necessarily normative and then they end up missing the human factor.
 
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inconsequential

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Please forgive me. I am a liar and a hypocrite. If I had been Nat Turner, I would have done much worse than he was accused of doing. The only reason I despise him is because, had my family been there, he would have probably killed them. That's why I hate the NBP more than I hate Kluckers or Neo-Nazis. As much as I despise them, they probably wouldn't harm my family but I've heard what King Shabazz wants to do to "cracker babies" and that makes them a very real threat to my family.

I tried to deny it to myself but I have to be honest, that's it right there.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Please forgive me. I am a liar and a hypocrite. If I had been Nat Turner, I would have done much worse than he was accused of doing..
In the heat of the moment, people tend to be prone to do things they thought they'd never do..

Not really sure why forgiveness is being asked since I never gave condemnation for others being honest.
The only reason I despise him is because, had my family been there, he would have probably killed them.
Not necessarily, seeing how he was already working with and inspired by other whites such as John Brown/those in his camp.

There's something to be said on finding out why certain groups were targeted rather than assuming it was simply all whites who were targeted..
That's why I hate the NBP more than I hate Kluckers or Neo-Nazis. As much as I despise them, they probably wouldn't harm my family but I've heard what King Shabazz wants to do to "cracker babies" and that makes them a very real threat to my family.


I tried to deny it to myself but I have to be honest, that's it right there
As said before, it's shameful what others have done in the name of the Black Panthers like King Shabazz. It's an insult to others who were militant but with restraint - and something that'll always be a significant problem for me...as noted before:

I'd LOVE to see T'Challa get a movie of his own but I'd be curious to see how the name would work out considering how Shabazz and his crew of scumbag racists have soiled the term Black Panther.
Gxg (G²);63786625 said:
Black Panther is still a good term, from what I've seen, provided one remember the HISTORICAL meaning of the group/its basis and how multicultural it was - and on the issue, people can recognize the true shakers from the real fakers..

Gxg (G²);61500017 said:
Goodness, the NBPP make me sick. Definately not the kind from the 60/70s protesting the Vietnam War amongst other things..and the original Black Panthers group actually condemned them (as seen here).
Gxg (G²);61499824 said:
A lot of the Black Panthers were actually for equality between blacks/whites and many non-blacks were a part of the group as well during the 60s/70s (influential scholars such as Cornel West being a part of the Black Panthers as well and loving people from all backgrounds). There was even a sister party to the Black Panthers made called White Panther which was meant to help fight racial discrimination (as seen here , here and here ) and aid women's rights.

It's often a stereotype to say that all of them were against whites.............

I recently had a discussion with a friend of mine on the issue and she shared on the issue of how many reacted with aggressive protection of their group due to often having no options of protection from other groups that harmed them...many of which you noted. Much of what many Black Panther groups focused on was simply about confronting tyranny in government and the dominant culture wherever it could be found----and aiding whomever was harmed by it, be it blacks or whites (especially impoverished whites often in the struggle with blacks) or American Indians and so many others.
.

 
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AV1

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You guys go deep. I like it, mostly because I enjoy studying this type of stuff. However, I have boiled it down to the nitty gritty when faced with the circumstances that may befall all of us...and what my response should be:

I trust in God that I will know it when I see it.
 
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inconsequential

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I ask forgiveness for lying that it was because he killed women and children and tried to vilify him when it was my own selfish reasoning for opposing him.

I didn't know that he was inspired by Brown and others. I guess I just thought of him as the leader of an angry mob. Probably because that's how he is often portrayed. I did read the he instructed his followers to not harm many of the poor whites in the area who didn't own slaves.
 
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How about these? The nuns of St Joanikija. (SP?) Here is a link from an LA Times article.
Serbian Nuns With Guns Put Most of Their Faith in a Higher Power - Los Angeles Times

Thought this one was highly interesting:

If a priest wants to defend his family or the church, why couldn't he? As it is, many monks of Greece actually had guns and protected themselves from the Turks. In example, there was a famous Greek War of Independence hero - Athanasios Diakos - who was actually a deacon and fought.

Within Orthodoxy itself, there are some interesting dynamics which give much to consider...specifically, things such as the 27th Apostolic canon which may be somewhat applicable:

(From the Rudder)

Canon 27 “As for a Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon that strikes believers for sinning, or unbelievers for wrong-doing, with the idea of making them afraid, we command that he be deposed from office. For the Lord has nowhere taught that: on the contrary, He Himself when struck did not strike back; when reviled, He did not revile His revilers; when suffering, He did not threaten.
(c. IX of the lst-&-2nd; c. V of Antioch; cc. LVII, LXII, LXXVI, C, CVI, CVII; and I Pet. 2:23.).

Interpretation

In teaching His disciples His divine commandments the Lord used to say: "And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch." (Mark 13:37). One of His commandments is to turn our left cheek to anyone that strikes our right cheek (Matt. 5:39). If, therefore, this commandment ought to be kept by all Christians, it ought much more to be obeyed by those in holy orders, and especially by bishops, regarding whom divine Paul wrote to Timothy that a bishop ought not to be a striker (I Tim. 3:3). That is why the present Canon says too: If any bishop, or presbyter, or deacon strikes those Christians who offend him, or unbelievers that do wrong to others, with a view to making others afraid of him with such blows, we command that he be deposed from office. For in no part of the Gospel has the Lord taught to do such a thing as that: in fact, He has taught us quite the contrary with His example; since when beaten by the soldiers and Jews, at the time of His passion, He did not lift a hand to beat them in return. When accused and insulted, He did not insult others, nor did He accuse them. Even when suffering on the cross, He did not threaten to chastise them, but begged His Father to pardon them. "Those in holy orders ought to imitate the Lord by rebuking sinners and wrongdoers, in order that others may be afraid" (I Tim. 5:20), as St. Paul says, and "by sobering them, at times with teaching and admonition, and at times with ecclesiastical penances, but not taking revenge with wrath and anger, for villainy say, or for any offense such persons may have given them, or by beating them and thrashing them." In mentioning this same Canon, c. IX of the lst-&-2nd also says that not only are those in holy orders to be deposed who strike others with their own hands, but also those who get others to deliver the blows.
This canon addresses the use of violence by a deacon, priest, or bishop more generally, and does not address the use of violence specifically to defend another person whose life is in danger..... a situation that I doubt would result in the deposition of any. Of course, a priest may very well be deposed for taking a life, even if the taking of such a life was accidental (for instance, if a priest is driving a car and gets into an accident which results in the death of someone in the other car).

However, as another said, it would be ultimately up to the bishop to either apply the canons or exercise some kind of leniency if the situation was very exceptional. When it comes to priests and weapons, one is treading on the soil of the bishops. ...as they are the ones who interpret the discipline of the Church. There are several priests I've heard of who are/were police officers who carried weapons in their secular work. ..and the most any of them ever heard from a bishop was, "Try not to use your gun if you can." Essentially, it was as good advice as any peace officer can receive.

And on the issue, to see the ways that priests are being advised now with regards to violence is very fascinating when considering the history of the Church - specifically on the ways that violence (As much as it's noted to be something not done to other non-believers on the outside) was something that was used/advocated toward believers. For reference, I am reminded of the book "Jesus Wars" by Philip Jenkins, which is indeed an amazing one - very AMAZING read on a host of levels in light of how Philip Jenkins is able to communicate complex ideas and complicated concepts in a manner that preserves their integrity to a wide audience and at the same time renders them as a fascinating... And I was so thankful for the ways he detailed the ways that militancy was done by the Church at various points. For a brief excerpt:



May those who divide Christ be divided with the sword, may they be hewn in pieces, may they be burned alive! – Second Council of Ephesus, 449

In 449, the leading Fathers of the Christian church met in Ephesus, in Asia Minor, to debate pressing theological issues. At a critical moment, a band of monks and soldiers took control of the meeting hall, forcing bishops to sign a blank paper on which the winning side later filled in its own favored statement. The document targeted the patriarch of Constantinople, Flavian, one of the three or four greatest clerics in the Christian world. Yelling “Slaughter him!” a mob of monks attacked Flavian, beating him so badly that he died a few days later. So outrageous was the intimidation that the ultimate winners in the conflict invalidated this whole council. They repudi[bless and do not curse]ated it as a Latrocinium—which loosely means, a Gangster Synod.

From later history, we know of many episodes when Christians would resort to violence, especially against members of other faiths, but in this instance, the different sides agreed on so much. Both factions accepted the same Scriptures and the same view of the church and the hierarchy, and both agreed that Jesus Christ was God incar[bless and do not curse]nate, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Where they disagreed so violently was over the nature of Christ. Flavian’s enemies, and their monkish militia, believed that Christ existed in a single nature in which the divine dominated. They felt that by failing to proclaim this truth, by advocating a Christ in Two Natures, Flavian’s party had betrayed the core of Christianity. Literally, they thought, Flavian had divided Christ.

From a modern point of view, we are baffled to see such extraordinary violence unleashed over what might appear to be a trivial philosophical row. Surely, we might think, these debates involved over-fine distinctions quite as trivial as the proverbial disputes over the number of angels who could sit on the head of a pin. Just what could have caused such bitter hatred? In fact, the conflict involves a paradox that is quite central to the Christian faith. Christians must believe that God is wholly human and wholly divine, but it is easy for a believer to stray too far in one direction or the other. Either we might think of Christ purely as God, in which case he is no longer human, has no share in our human experience, and becomes a di[bless and do not curse]vinity in the sky like Zeus or Thor; or else, in contrast, we focus so much on his humanity that we underplay the divine element and deny the Incarnation. We would preach a Christ of two natures and two minds, literally a schizophrenic being. According to his ene[bless and do not curse]mies—unfairly and inaccurately—that was Flavian’s sin, and brutal violence was the only appropriate response to his gross insult to the Son of God.

The violence was unforgivable, and so were all the acts of persecution and forced conformity. But in one sense, ancient Christians were exactly right to be so passionate about their causes, if not the means by which they pursued them. Far from being philosophical niceties, the central themes in the religious debates really were criti[bless and do not curse]cal to the definition of Christianity, and to the ways in which the faith would develop over the coming centuries. The Christ controversies did, and do, have immense consequences, for culture and politics as much as for religion.
 
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You guys go deep. .
Deepness tends to run in you as well:cool:;)
I like it, mostly because I enjoy studying this type of stuff. However, I have boiled it down to the nitty gritty when faced with the circumstances that may befall all of us...and what my response should be:

I trust in God that I will know it when I see it
Believing that will happen for you as well - as for many believers, that's really what it comes down to. And when seeing the Hall of Faith and how others differed in their actions - Daniel refusing to eat what was placed before him while other contemporaries like Esther lied/kept her identity secret ....and some chose to steal in hard times (like David when living as a mercenary in enemy territory/having to provide for loved ones) whereas others gave themselves to persecution - there is truly a dynamic of seeing differing variations in response.

I see no reason why it'd be different today.
 
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I ask forgiveness for lying that it was because he killed women and children and tried to vilify him when it was my own selfish reasoning for opposing him..
Understood

I didn't know that he was inspired by Brown and others. I guess I just thought of him as the leader of an angry mob. Probably because that's how he is often portrayed.
To be clear,

There's no evidence Turner personally knew Brown - but when it came to abolitionists who fought for freedom (As Brown was alongside others), their actions were not lost on Turner from afar...with many noting that it was white abolitionists who in many ways helped Turner in developing the idea for rebellion.

Indeed. He's often portrayed in simplistic terms rather than shown for the complex individual he was.
I did read the he instructed his followers to not harm many of the poor whites in the area who didn't own slaves
Indeed - and that's a key factor to remember when it comes to knowing how not all oppressed blacks were unaware of the fact that many whites experienced some of the same and were on the same level as they were. During the rebellion Nat Turner abstained from drinking any alcohol; he also spared a white childhood friend, and the owners of his wife. Moreover, Nat also admonished his fellow slaves not to loot the various plantations.


But as it concerns Turner, he was very multi-faceted in his actions. It is the case that Christians should hesitate before applauding those who brutally killed people...and at the same time, we should hesitate before condemning Christians with the rare courage to willingly offer their own lives in an attempt to strike a blow against what seemed an implacable evil.

For good discussion on the issue:


Nat helped inspire a fanatic named John Brown to launch a similar attack on the South that led directly to the Southern secession and the Civil War. ..and the ways it could've been expressed have been debated by many.

As another noted best:

Between the Revolution and the Civil War, three dramatic events in Virginia focused America's attention on the problem of slavery. Gabriel's Conspiracy in 1800, Nat Turner's Rebellion in Southampton County in 1831, and John Brown's Raid on Harpers Ferry in 1859 deeply shocked white southerners and provided confirmation for those who argued that slavery was incompatible with American liberty. African American scholar and activist W.E.B. Du Bois once noted that the attitudes of an "imprisoned" group could take three forms: "a feeling of revolt and revenge; an attempt to adjust all thought and action to the will of the greater groups; or, finally, a determined attempt at self-development, self-realization, in spite of envisioning discouragements and prejudice." These attitudes ebbed and flowed with the "spirit of the age." The spirit of revolt exhibited by Gabriel in 1800 and Nat Turner in 1831 convinced John Brown in 1859 that the slaves across the South were ready and willing to emancipate themselves. All they needed, Brown concluded, was the moral and military guidance of an inspired leader. "Death or Liberty" examines these events and the debates about slavery, freedom, and sectional politics that raged in their wake. Finally the exhibition offers an overview of how the public memory of these events has changed.
 
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inconsequential

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Gxg (G²);64199170 said:
Curious, of course, as to which cultural factors you had in mind as having so much of an effect.

I was referring to the southern slave-owning culture and how it wasn't viewed as a moral evil by many or most of those who participated in it. It's just how it was. That kind of perpetual victimization would have to wear on anyone, being part of system that is obviously evil (to the victims) while seeing how the perpetrators treat it as normal yet, it would also lead to a form of institutionalization in many who began to believe they were inferior.

I like how this is dealt with in the AMC program Hell on Wheels. It shows a lot of the complexity of race relations in that era in an honest, organic way. I watched part of an interview with Common where he talks about how he was drawn to the role of Elam because of the complexity of the character.

Revelations is probably my favorite episode with Cullen and Elam starting to understand and respect each other more. Cullen was a slave owner who freed his slaves a year before the war started at the behest of his wife, an ardent abolitionist. He later admits that she was right to have him do so and he kept them on as paid workers. He tells Elam about growing up, practically raised by one of the slaves and how when he returned from the war he found her body curled around his son's body in the burned barn where she tried to shield him from the flames. I wish I could find a clip of that dialogue but here is one about Elam.

Elam Ferguson: Inside Hell on Wheels - YouTube

After watching videos and writing about it, I realized I really need to get started on season 2. :)
 
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inconsequential

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I just watched it again. Cullen recounts to Elam that it was finding the bodies of his son and former slave that showed him his wife was right.

"Their bodies were scorched black, fused together. You couldn't tell where one ended and the other began. And I thought to myself, 'God has a funny way of teaching you things.'"
 
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I was referring to the southern slave-owning culture and how it wasn't viewed as a moral evil by many or most of those who participated in it. It's just how it was. That kind of perpetual victimization would have to wear on anyone, being part of system that is obviously evil (to the victims) while seeing how the perpetrators treat it as normal yet, it would also lead to a form of institutionalization in many who began to believe they were inferior.
I just watched it again. Cullen recounts to Elam that it was finding the bodies of his son and former slave that showed him his wife was right.

"Their bodies were scorched black, fused together. You couldn't tell where one ended and the other began. And I thought to myself, 'God has a funny way of teaching you things.'"
Indeed....what you say makes sense. And yet, as noted earlier, it's ironic where the same dynamics still happen today - even with things such as the food we buy (when it comes at the expense of others) - and no one who may be against slavery is as prone to say it's wrong to get food that allowed for others to not be paid fairly/starve ....or not consider the cost of our consumeristic lifestyles on other countries whom we harm/pollute for things ranging from gas to electronic waste and other systems we love - in the same way many loved sugar cane and didn't care where it came from ...to the point of believing the myth that those who labored in slavery to provide for it weren't really "unhappy" and that it was made up claims that said they were suffering.
I like how this is dealt with in the AMC program Hell on Wheels. It shows a lot of the complexity of race relations in that era in an honest, organic way. I watched part of an interview with Common where he talks about how he was drawn to the role of Elam because of the complexity of the character.
Cool show and thanks for sharing it. The Railroad and what it brought to communities (both good and bad) is something that has been very fascinating to me when seeing how much it altered so much of life for African-Americans and Caucasians of so many stripes ...as well as other ethnic groups. There's an excellent book on the issue which has intrigued me and that may bless you if interested - entitled Empire Express: Building the First Transcontinental Railroad by David Howard Bain.
http://www.davidhbain.com/page4/express.html</DIV>
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Revelations is probably my favorite episode with Cullen and Elam starting to understand and respect each other more. Cullen was a slave owner who freed his slaves a year before the war started at the behest of his wife, an ardent abolitionist. He later admits that she was right to have him do so and he kept them on as paid workers. He tells Elam about growing up, practically raised by one of the slaves and how when he returned from the war he found her body curled around his son's body in the burned barn where she tried to shield him from the flames. I wish I could find a clip of that dialogue but here is one about Elam.

Elam Ferguson: Inside Hell on Wheels - YouTube

After watching videos and writing about it, I realized I really need to get started on season 2. :)

As interesting as the show is in what it symbolizes, I must admit that there are some aspects to it which did seem to put me off when considering the historical aspects of what occurred during that era. I accept and understand the dynamic of others working in positions that were not comfortable - such as with Elam in his work as security guard for others who condoned slavery at some point - but I also wonder what image is really being accepted in the end.

Adolph Reed, Jr....a professor of political science at the University of Pennsylvania, specializing in race and American politics, had some very fascinating insights on the issue of how often people wish to discuss oppression and the context it occurred in - and yet end up promoting a mindset that tends to lessen the weight of it inadverantly. As he wisely noted (for brief excerpt):
...the television drama Hell on Wheels constructs the wounded ex-Confederate much nearer its original form but with revisions that underscore the contemporary period drama’s problematic and ideological relation to history. Adam Serwer adduces Hell on Wheels, which is set in 1865 in a mobile railroad town,as another illustration of the persistence of the trope of the vengeful former Confederate brooding hero/sociopath, albeit in a “hilariously rationalized” form. Its version of the character, Cullen Bohannan, had been a large Mississippi planter who freed his slaves a year before the treasonous insurrection in deference to his northern, anti-slavery wife who—true to tale type—was later martyred by marauding Union soldiers, now the targets of his quest. Serwer is correct to say that the preposterous device of separating the hero’s Confederate loyalties from commitment to slave-holding is a transparent effort to sanitize the hero’s secessionism. However, the difference in historical context is crucial in this regard as well. The old Lost Cause tropes, originating in the early twentieth-century southern ideological campaign for sectional reconciliation on white supremacist terms, don’t do the same cultural and ideological work in a society in which Glenn Beck appropriates Martin Luther King, Jr. to accuse President Barack Obama of racism that they did in a society in which racial subordination was supported explicitly by the force of law and custom. This is not to imply that there’s nothing politically disturbing and reactionary about the conceits of Hell on Wheels. On the contrary, going beyond the superficial rehearsal of hoary tropes to consider the program’s representations in their actual historical context discloses its more insidious work in legitimizing inequality.

The conceit that Bohannan had freed his slaves before he fought for secession does more than separate the treason from its foundational commitment to slavery. That conceit also replaces slavery as an institution with slaveholding as a matter of individual morality, as in Django Unchained. That Bohannan manumitted his slaves as a gesture of love for his wife folds into another trope of the genre, the pedestalizing, “I love her so much I’d change my raffish ways for her” fantasy. That’s the happy face of adolescent patriarchy, its expression that doesn’t usually involve a restraining order, though it’s probably best that the brooding loner hero’s sainted wife is nearly always a martyr and thus motivation for, instead of the object of, his sadistic violence and mayhem. But in Hell on Wheels that device also reinforces the reduction of slavery to slaveholding as an individual act, a consumer preference to be negotiated within a marriage—like owning a motorcycle, going to the strip club with the guys every weekend, or painting the living room magenta.


 
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inconsequential

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That's why I'm glad I don't think too deeply about entertainment. I can just enjoy the story and dialogue without picking apart everything. I have a good friend, with whom I hate watching movies because he is a video editor and tends to make them unenjoyable by pointing out everything from plot holes to poor transitions. Adolph sounds like my friend on steroids. :D
 
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inconsequential

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OK, I thought a little deeper. I'm on my phone so I can't be as verbose as I'd like; I hope I can distill my thoughts well enough here.

Cullen is portrayed as a good man driven to bad things by the murder of his family. He freed his slaves grudgingly to please his wife and only realized AFTER the war that she was right. His fighting for the Confederacy wasn't hypocritical. The fact that he was a good man, yet held slaves testifies to the power of the institution of slavery over the minds and hearts of ALL that it affected.

I think the strength of the program is that it humanizes the people and shows the reality that not all unionists were saints and not all confederates were villains. I think it does this by showing the wounds caused by such an evil institution on many different groups.

I may be wrong in my assessment but then a lot of what we take from subjective things like entertainment is based on opinion and what we want to see.
 
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That's why I'm glad I don't think too deeply about entertainment. I can just enjoy the story and dialogue without picking apart everything.
I think there are plenty of shows/forms of entertainment I don't think too deeply on and enjoy for its own sake. My cousin and I ended up discussing that when it came to some of my favorite shows such as "Avatar: The Last Airbender" and "Avatar: The Legend of Korra".....

Nonetheless, I'm keenly aware of how many take forms of entertainment and end up basing their views of history and the world on it - even when it's not accurate. And thus, the brain doesn't simply shut off to never consider influence.
I have a good friend, with whom I hate watching movies because he is a video editor and tends to make them unenjoyable by pointing out everything from plot holes to poor transitions. Adolph sounds like my friend on steroids. :D
Sometimes those friends can be a blessing and a benefit as well - even though other times you feel like saying "Can't we just suspend Disbelief"
 
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