Modern day John Wimber, Smith Wigglesworth, John G Lake?

[JimB]

If miracles Were based on 100% grace, there would be no starving children in Africa. Theres isnt, because God needs our "work". Paul tells us to strive to enter rest, faith without works is dead. The fervent prayer of a righteous man is effective. But it is not our work that provides the miracle, just our work to enter rest, to become usable. My take.

This is probably an exercise in futility, but I will give you my answer. Does God “need” us? Of course not. God got along fine without us for eons before he created us. But does God “want” us and does he “use” us, i.e., does he allow us to participate with him in the great work of the kingdom. Yes. Jesus said, “It is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” I pray but my prayers do not tell God what to do and how to do it. Those matters I must leave up to him. I simply tell him what I want and, as Jesus advised, pray “Thy will be done.” Real faith rests in God’s decision, not mine. Anyhow, that’s how I see it.

 

[GreatistheLord]

the question does God need us or can we force His hand, to both we agree. The bigger answer, does God choose to include our "effort" in answering our prayers is always yes. As long as we're involved, we have to play our part.

And that is where many conservative christians part company, as if it denies part of Gods soveriegnty. If only they had verses to back them up.

 

[Yitzchak]

Concerning this issue of holiness which I talked about in my last post. The issue has gotten a lot of attention with the discussion of entire sanctification which means a definite work of grace where a person receives the full measure of the Spirit's power to live holy. The result a sinless or in some case , some taught a near sinless life. I believe this is the camp that Gideon who post on here a lot falls into.

I agree that we need to have an experience where we receive an impartation of the Holy Spirit that gives us the power to live holy. where I part ways with the holiness camp is that I believe in partial and progressive sanctification. I suppose that is some of the Pentecostal influence on me theologically.

Passages such as this one have been used to argue that we should live sinless lives. I don;t believe that is the case. I believe that these scriptures mean that our lifestyle should show some sign of the holy spirit's empowerment over sin. Others will see that change in our lifestyle. but I don;t believe we are required to have perfect sanctification. Although I do reccommend seeking as much sanctification as we are able to.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Paying the price , which is the phrase which sparked this whole discussion in this thread simply means More of him and less of me in my life. It is dying to ourselves and doing the works of God through the power of the spirit.

Let me put it this way. Let's say I come to Christ as a drunkard. Now the scripture clearly teaches that I should repent of that. That repentance though is not accomplished through fleshly striving. We need the power of the Holy Spirit to empower us to repent properly and to gain freedom and victory over that sin. But God still places the responsibility on us. We don't simply say , oh well , if God wants me off alcohol then he will show up one day and zap me. We seek for his Holy Spirit to be manifested in our life in all areas including that one.

We humble ourselves and pray and ask God for his empowerment. God may speak to us and take us through the mill to get from point A to point B. I have heard testimonies of people in that type of a situation struggling with an addiction to inappropriate content or alcohol or whatever problem and they seek God for his deliverance only to find it does not come immediately. But then God begins to speak to them about an issue like unforgiveness as standing in the way of their deliverance. Or perhaps they love their money too much and God tells them to give all their money away. Paying the price by obeying in these hard things is often the thing that allows God to move in with more of his fullness and deliver us.

Frequently , this has been the case with people seeking for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. they find that as they seek , god places his finger upon things. I have read accounts where people at asuza street were instructed by the spirit to leave the altar and go and find some person that they needed to apologize to. one person ahd to go three times because the first two times God told them they did it begrudgingly and not fully from their heart. After they obeyed and cleared those things up then they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit immediately at the tail end of seeking for many months. if they had not been willing to pay the price of seeking for months without giving up and pay the price of humbling , maybe even humiliating themselves to this other person they needed to apologize to , then they would not have received.

Those who are willing to pay the price receive a greater measure from God.

The thing that confuses some of us, and I suppose it serves us right for getting into God's business instead of just doing what he told us to do. That thing we do is we compare. I have a friend who got saved and God delivered them from smoking right there at the altar and it stuck. Another friend , they sought God for a couple years to get free of smoking. Instead of comparing and discouraging ourselves , we should just believe what Hebrews says. God will reward us if we diligently seek him. That applies to revival or to personal holiness or to just wanting to know him better.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[hislegacy]

For one who doesn't need us, God sure gives a whole lot of instructions for us to do things in His Name


Just a sayin

 

[NorrinRadd]

1998 maybe? With the Awake America tour? If so, I was there and part of the prayer ministry team. Packed arena with about 4,000 responding to the altar call . . . took us to 2 am most nights to finish praying for everyone. I'll never forget it for many spiritual reasons, but also because it was the week parents dropped their kids off the college and there were no hotels to be found, so I had to drive 20 minutes to a nearby town and stayed in the only available bed for $25 a night - had a 1920's era metal grate elevator and metal room furniture from that same era.

Brief digression: Is Clarence "Bro" Cope still around? He used to preach from the steps of one of the buildings -- and of course get heckled -- when I was there in the early '80s. We attended the same fellowship at that time.

 

[NorrinRadd]

On the "paying the price" jazz -- As is often the case, Scripture demonstrates a tension. Gifts are gifts. Grace is grace. If we must "pay a price" to get them, they are not truly free.

At the same time, we have, among other things, multiple parables from Jesus showing us that if we are wise and faithful in using the gifts He gives, He will trust us with more.

But I don't see that equating to "paying a price" in terms of laboriously following some list of "holiness" standards, or spending a certain minimum amount of time in prayer, or reading a certain quantity of Scripture, or attending church with some special mandatory frequency. The Corinthians had copious activity of the Spirit without even doing a very good job of following the one and only Commandment still in effect -- Love -- hence the treatment of that topic right in the middle of two "Spiritual gift" chapters. The only "price" we need to pay is the never ending debt of love. And THAT should be enough to keep ANYONE busy.

 

[JimB]

On the "paying the price" jazz -- As is often the case, Scripture demonstrates a tension. Gifts are gifts. Grace is grace. If we must "pay a price" to get them, they are not truly free.

At the same time, we have, among other things, multiple parables from Jesus showing us that if we are wise and faithful in using the gifts He gives, He will trust us with more.

But I don't see that equating to "paying a price" in terms of laboriously following some list of "holiness" standards, or spending a certain minimum amount of time in prayer, or reading a certain quantity of Scripture, or attending church with some special mandatory frequency. The Corinthians had copious activity of the Spirit without even doing a very good job of following the one and only Commandment still in effect -- Love -- hence the treatment of that topic right in the middle of two "Spiritual gift" chapters. The only "price" we need to pay is the never ending debt of love. And THAT should be enough to keep ANYONE busy.

Personally, with all due respect , I think this is double-speak. A gift is a gift (as in spiritual gift), without any kind of price attached to it. All we have to do is receive it, no struggle, no price, no sacrifice. That is grace—there is nothing I can do to earn anything from God. He offers his gracious gifts without price—“Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price” (Isaiah 55.1). The price of God’s gifts was paid by Christ; we are incapable or paying for anything we receive from God. There is a feeling among people that they are undeserving of receiving a gift from God, that somehow they must earn it (i.e., deserve it). But, according to the apostle, “Is it not clear to you that to go back to that old rule-keeping, peer-pleasing religion would be an abandonment of everything personal and free in my relationship with God? I refuse to do that, to repudiate God’s grace. If a living relationship with God could come by rule-keeping, then Christ died unnecessarily” (Gal. 2.21).

 

[JimB]

For one who doesn't need us, God sure gives a whole lot of instructions for us to do things in His Name


Just a sayin

Yep! It's called grace. We are allowed to participate with him in the work of the kingdom, but he doesn't "need" us. He wants us, yes; but needs us, hardly. He made it just fine for eons without us.

 

[hislegacy]

Yep! It's called grace.

Then please demonstrate it by duplicating say...... 50% of Lakes ministry.

I've never know. Anyone who "paid the price" who didn't get the results. And vice versa

 

[Yitzchak]

Brief digression: Is Clarence "Bro" Cope still around? He used to preach from the steps of one of the buildings -- and of course get heckled -- when I was there in the early '80s. We attended the same fellowship at that time.

Bro Cope must be retirement age by now. Although he did not seem much like the retirement type. The last I heard he ran a restaurant in Spring Mills ( a small town just outside of state college) for a few years and taught a Bible study with a hand full of disciples who he was training to be street preachers. I have been back to the area in several years now.

 

[whatfor]

I was going to put a name in here but , I did not feel it was right.
What I will say is the man I was thinking of has a healing and prophetic ministry.
But the thing I like about him , is he does not claim it is him doing it and his aim is to teach the church that they can do what he does as the holy spirit enables.

 

[JimB]

Then please demonstrate it by duplicating say...... 50% of Lakes ministry.

I've never know. Anyone who "paid the price" who didn't get the results. And vice versa

SP, I am not in a contest with John G. Lake and I really don’t know (firsthand) all the things others allege he was supposed to have done. It really doesn’t matter to me. I am just doing the best I can and God uses me on a regular basis. In fact he used me prophetically yesterday and he will use me today if I allow him. I just do not keep count of what he does. As Job said, “He does great things past finding out, wonders without number.”

 

[hislegacy]

SP, I am not in a contest with John G. Lake and I really don’t know (firsthand) all the things others allege he was supposed to have done. It really doesn’t matter to me. I am just doing the best I can and God uses me on a regular basis. In fact he used me prophetically yesterday and he will use me today if I allow him. I just do not keep count of what he does. As Job said, “He does great things past finding out, wonders without number.”

It is not a contest, I am asking you to prove your theory. If that is the way God works, then anyone should be a le to do it.

 

[JimB]

Then please demonstrate it by duplicating say...... 50% of Lakes ministry.

I've never know. Anyone who "paid the price" who didn't get the results. And vice versa

SP, I have a question: since the term “paid the price” is a very ambiguous and arbitrary term maybe you can explain just exactly how we “pay the price” and how much of a price is it? I would prefer a scriptural answer, please. Do I have to pay the same price as you, or can I get a discount? I see everything as coming from God, given freely to whosoever will, without price—“Is anyone thirsty? Come and drink—even if you have no money! Come, take your choice of wine or milk—it’s all free! Why spend your money on food that does not give you strength? Why pay for food that does you no good? Listen to me, and you will eat what is good. You will enjoy the finest food” (Isaiah 55). We could never “pay the price” for God’s gifts.

 

[JimB]

It is not a contest, I am asking you to prove your theory. If that is the way God works, then anyone should be a le to do it.

Hmmmm. How does one “prove” something like this. Would you believe me if I said I have prayed for dozens? … scores? … hundreds? … thousands? … of people who were healed? I would say that after almost 50 years of praying for the sick the number is in the hundreds, but then you would have to take my word for it. I could not “prove’ it because I (or someone else) have not kept count or written a journal, much less a book, extolling my great spiritual powers. I simply do the work I have been assigned to do and God does the rest. I am content with that. I can't prove my exploits but I do know that God has (and will) use me and I have not "paid" any kind of price for it (at least that I have noticed). And, yes, any believer can do it. Just because they are told they can't (until they pay some kind of mysterious price) doesn't mean they can't.

 

[hislegacy]

Hmmmm. How does one “prove” something like this. Would you believe me if I said I have prayed for dozens? … scores? … hundreds? … thousands? … of people who were healed? I would say that after almost 50 years of praying for the sick the number is in the hundreds, but then you would have to take my word for it. I could not “prove’ it because I (or someone else) have not kept count or written a journal, much less a book, extolling my great spiritual powers. I simply do the work I have been assigned to do and God does the rest. I am content with that. I can't prove my exploits but I do know that God has (and will) use me and I have not "paid" any kind of price for it (at least that I have noticed). And, yes, any believer can do it. Just because they are told they can't (until they pay some kind of mysterious price) doesn't mean they can't.

This is probably another excercise in futility but here goes.

What makes the difference then?

Your in ministry 50 years and have seen hundreds healed

Lake was in ministry and had 100,000 confirmed healings in one year.

What makes the difference?

 

[JimB]

*****

What makes the difference?

I don't know. Maybe Lake had a better PR department than I do.

 

[hislegacy]

I don't know. Maybe Lake had a better PR department than I do.

Typical answer. If it doesn't fit, make fun of it.

 

[mrhappy3]

Typical answer. If it doesn't fit, make fun of it.

well bring it closer to home, how many healings have you been involved in ?

and more to the point, what does that prove ?

being arrogant and a big head is a massive turn off, when there is no sign of humility, and any SINNER on the street will tell you that.

They couldn't care less about healings,,,they want to see Jesus in someone.

 

[jamadan]

SP, I have a question: since the term “paid the price” is a very ambiguous and arbitrary term maybe you can explain just exactly how we “pay the price” and how much of a price is it? I would prefer a scriptural answer, please. Do I have to pay the same price as you, or can I get a discount? I see everything as coming from God, given freely to whosoever will, without price—“Is anyone thirsty? Come and drink—even if you have no money! Come, take your choice of wine or milk—it’s all free! Why spend your money on food that does not give you strength? Why pay for food that does you no good? Listen to me, and you will eat what is good. You will enjoy the finest food” (Isaiah 55). We could never “pay the price” for God’s gifts.

So here's one that usually gets a few undies in a twist.

Salvation is not free. Its a covenant that we enter in Christ's blood. He paid the price for our atonement, a price we can not pay on our own. And we pay with our lives, voluntarily laying down our lives (dying to self) and living for Christ.

Does that earn salvation? Nope. But it is a price to pay. We can't continue living as we did. We have to enter into Christ and allow Him to change us and be willing to exercise self-control to live holy and to pursue His Will for our lives each and every day - Paul said, 'I die daily' - that's a price we have to pay. We used to call it the Cost of Discipleship, and it still holds true.

And that's not the only level of price to pay. We have to be willing to learn and change. We have to be willing to give of our time and our services to the Church and to reach the lost - we are His workmanship created to do good works. And if we are called to leadership - one of the five fold ministry heads - we have an additional price to pay in accountability, responsibility and corresponding persecutions, trial and tribulations of many kinds . . . these are all costs. And there is a spiritual price to pay as well. When we become Christians, we are targeted by the enemy even more so than when we were lost. When we become leaders, it incrementally increases. And if we dare to operate in the power of the Holy Spirit, it becomes a full-fledged non-stop war requiring prayer, fasting and intercessions of all manner, and sufferings as the enemy and thief does his best to discourage advancing the Kingdom of God even to the point of direct spiritual attacks that can do all kinds of damage to the minister, loved ones, property, etc. Waking up in the middle of the night and seeing a tall gray figure standing at the foot of the bed staring at my wife and me (last year) was mild because at least I saw him and knew the battle was on. Causing my youngest to be diagnosed with leukemia and having to go through tests and re-exam after re-exam all the while knowing we were under attack (he was ultimately cleared, no leukemia) was harder to take and endure. These are but two examples in a long list that I've endured the past year alone ever since starting open healing/deliverance meetings at the local Hilton ballroom so everyone can come for free to worship, hear God's Word and have healing prayer. We're seeing salvations and healings and deliverance, and we're learning how to intercede and pray for one another in increased measure to better protect against the enemy's attacks, but its a cost of advancing the Kingdom. Last week, there was an intense deliverance of a young man with multiple personalities who was manifesting demons and begging us to be set free. We spent an hour in deliverance, with the man knowing and shouting his freedom, and then went immediately into prayer for the entire team afterwards to pray special protection over each of us . . . again, just something we learned was necessary after getting beat-up in the past after such battles.

I have to tell you, there were times the enemies backlash got so bad financially, spiritually and physically that I told myself I would stop, that it wasn't worth it. If every time I entered into a healing session or a seminar to have people baptized in the Spirit, I was going to get beat up for months afterwards, I was ready to lay it all down were it not for the Holy Spirit who reminded me of the price the apostles paid . . . this is what it means to advance the Kingdom of God. When you pierce the darkness, the darkness can strike back. Christ has the victory and the devil never wins, but the battle does come with a price.