"Miracles happen in West Virginia

[I <3 Abraham]

Because they are desperate for any way to justify the 'kind and loving god' mantra that they want to believe in no matter what the facts may be.

I'm sure the relatives of the dead men don't think a great deal of 'the miracle' that led to one man surviving and not the others.

If god is all powerful and able to do anything would it have taken any more effort on his part to save the others? No. But god works in mysterious ways, mere mortals cannot begin to understand how god works...yada, yada, yada.

As we saw from the initial reaction to the incorrect news that all had been saved, the people were out there praising god and singing in his name. When it became apparent that no 'miracle' had happend and 12 of the 13 had died why did these people not then curse god? If he was to be given credit for saving them does he not deserve the blame for not saving them?

Conversely if the men died because it just took too long for the rescuers to get through the debris and it's not gods fault then maybe god deserves no praise for the one that survived. He survived because the rescuers made the heroic efforts to get to him before he died, no god involved there. If they had sat at the entrance to the tunnel and waited for god to perform a miracle what would have been the result?

Like a previous poster I too am fed up with people showering god with undeserved praise when good things happen but not assigning him blame when bad things happen. It has to be both or neither. If he chose to save one miner that means he chose not to save the others. Or he had nothing to do with any of it.

Man can begin to understand how god works in the world, but we need to have a little imagination and stop thinking of God as Superman, ready to save the day with his mighty mightiness (sp?).

Here's a couple things that I see God's presence in: first I see the courage of the rescue teams and I am glad that God made us capable of such courage, not cowardly like mice. Second, I saw the ingenuity of the plan to get the miners out and I marvel that our brains are such powerful computers, I see God's hand in that as well. But before you go flying off the handle at me about how those are just human traits and that the people should get the credit, just think with me for a moment. I cannot take credit for the excellence of my own mind, what I choose to do with my mind, that is different I can of course take credit or blame for that. God's glory in this situation is as the glory of the father when a son does well.

The blame for this situation? That rests squarely on human shoulders, the company was not operating the mine as safely as they should have. Looking deeper, coal mining is just freaking dangerous, we as a society choose to take that risk and we know that people will die doing it. We actually do place a value on coal (It's a frickin rock!) that is higher than a human life. That's messed up.

As an aside, just so we don't get into meaningless side arguments from this: I do believe in free will but it does not apply to this argument, I do believe in evolution but it does not apply to this argument and I do believe in God and that seems to be the focus of our disagreement.

Happy posting.

 

[StromRider]

Then I would suggest reading the thread in it's entirety. There are several here who's posts are not reflective of your statement.

Well, you'll have to point them out because I did go through the entire thread, for the second time, and found no one making any kind of negative remarks towards the miners or their families.

I did note posts stating that no one should question the 'miracle' aspect of things until some time had passed, if at all. Coincidentally those posts were mostly by you.

I guess if you want and expect to see negative posts, then you will.

 

[Jacey]

Well, you'll have to point them out because I did go through the entire thread, for the second time, and found no one making any kind of negative remarks towards the miners or their families.

I did note posts stating that no one should question the 'miracle' aspect of things until some time had passed, if at all. Coincidentally those posts were mostly by you.

I guess if you want and expect to see negative posts, then you will.

Being that this is a "miracles" thread and not a "condolences" thread, it sure seems that discussing the validity of a miracle actually happening is quite appropriate.

And um, would a condolences thread even be needed? I feel sorrow, but I doubt any family members post here.

 

[Deamiter]

closed for review -- the political and possibly religious discussion will probably be removed, though I'm new to moderating the forum, so I'll not make any promises.