Met Philip letter about Syria

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VERY interesting, Matt. Thanks for sharing. I'm disgusted about this bombing issue. It smells of neo-con global police. Like Rus always points out with Chesterton, Dems and GOP---two sides of the same coin.

The U.S. government could care less about the Orthodox Christians who will be caught up in the net. And what if the REBELS do take over the government? What then? Will these radical Muslims who are hostile to a secular government treat Christians with respect? Of course not! We'll get more of the "arab spring" door-to-door slaughter of Orthodox Christians and we'll see more churches bombed and on fire....

Lord have mercy on our wonderful brothers and sisters in Syria and Lord, please enter our president's heart and change it. Visit and guide his thinking, most Holy Trinity!
 
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rakovsky

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I agree with both of you. The story we are told does not make sense, and since it's not a defensive war, in fact it can only create more danger for the US, it does not follow Just War theory.

We are told that terrorism by Muslim fundamentalists is the number 1 threat, yet here we are arming foreign "rebel" fundamentalists to destroy a secular government that protects Christians, based on the claim the government used chemical weapons, the evidence for which the American people are not allowed to be shown.

Is this a repeat of the destructive Iraq invasion over non-existent WMDs?
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think the main differences is Syria are 1: almost no one supports this at home (unlike Iraq at the onset of the war), 2: almost no one supports this abroad (unlike President Bush who did have a coalition that went with him, 3: 7 out of the 9 rebel factions that we are gonna help are linked to Al-Qaeda, and 4: President Obama was supposed to give us hope and change, and even went on an apology tour talking about how America should not throw its weight around.
 
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The difference was that Bush and his neo-con cronies like Wolfowitz sold us the b.s. lie that there would be a mushroom cloud and attack and world war III Armageddon if we didn't go into Iraq. They scared us to death and told everyone 9-11 was linked to Iraq. Lies, ALL LIES! (in my best Frau Farbisena from Austin Powers voice!)

With Obama, it's a weak, honest "let's go slap 'em on the wrist!" mission.

Both are absurd, but the first one was full of trickery, deceit, fear-mongering at its best, and $$$$ agendas for Cheney and Halliburton. Obama's mission lacks the fear and mushroom clouds effect! ^_^

I think the main differences is Syria are 1: almost no one supports this at home (unlike Iraq at the onset of the war), 2: almost no one supports this abroad (unlike President Bush who did have a coalition that went with him, 3: 7 out of the 9 rebel factions that we are gonna help are linked to Al-Qaeda, and 4: President Obama was supposed to give us hope and change, and even went on an apology tour talking about how America should not throw its weight around.
 
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Gnarwhal

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I'm not pro-war, and I'm still on the fence with whether or not we should intervene in Syria. At any rate though, how are we supposed to let chemical weapons slide? I mean, it sets a precedent doesn't it? If Syria uses Sarin, then so can Egypt, Iran, North Korea and so on and so forth, right? Obviously I don't mean that literally, but isn't that sort of the message the U.S., U.K., France and the United Nations as a whole give the world if Syria in fact has used chemical weapons with no response?

WMD's in Iraq was a load of crap, but at this point it seems like the existence of chemical weapons in Syria and the actual use of them is a bit more likely.
 
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Given the track record of the CIA intelligence community on poison gas and WMD, I think we should wait a bit longer before we jump on their bandwagon.

I find what Assad has done to be vile and unconscionable. That being said, what will the Muslim rebels do when they take power!? Prepare for an all-out persecution against Orthodox Christians in Syria. Prepare for a new inquisition.

The U.N. has the responsibility to deal with this, not always America's police force---basically the U.S.!

I think it's a purely U.N. matter and the Pope and Orthodox patriarchs are right on this one.

I'm not pro-war, and I'm still on the fence with whether or not we should intervene in Syria. At any rate though, how are we supposed to let chemical weapons slide? I mean, it sets a precedent doesn't it? If Syria uses Sarin, then so can Egypt, Iran, North Korea and so on and so forth, right? Obviously I don't mean that literally, but isn't that sort of the message the U.S., U.K., France and the United Nations as a whole give the world if Syria in fact has used chemical weapons with no response?

WMD's in Iraq was a load of crap, but at this point it seems like the existence of chemical weapons in Syria and the actual use of them is a bit more likely.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I think the main differences is Syria are 1: almost no one supports this at home (unlike Iraq at the onset of the war), 2: almost no one supports this abroad (unlike President Bush who did have a coalition that went with him, 3: 7 out of the 9 rebel factions that we are gonna help are linked to Al-Qaeda, and 4: President Obama was supposed to give us hope and change, and even went on an apology tour talking about how America should not throw its weight around.
I'd add something another individual noted when it comes to the hypocrisy we've been finding ourselves in the U.S in due to the fact that we in the U.S have long been supporting and supplying those who are rebels/enemies long before any mess with Syria came out....and thus, one has to wonder how much of the "crisis" with intervention is something that's a real issue ...as it may be designed as with other events (just as it was with Iraq when the same dynamics occurred there as with other areas we intervened in - only to make more unstable).

For a good review:



'


As another noted best (from one of the research articles referenced) for brief excerpt:

.....as news outlets report on the ‘likely use of chemical weapons’ by Damascus without anything other than unverifiable hearsay and ambiguous video footage, the drumbeat of war gets louder and louder. A clear-thinking and rational political analyst would immediately be suspicious about the attack considering the presence of international chemical weapons investigators in Syria, as well as the fact that Damascus was undeniably winning the war against the jihadi rebel factions in cities like Qussair, Homs, Aleppo and elsewhere. That Assad would sabotage his own military victories and provide the perfect pretext for a foreign intervention is not only far-fetched, it runs contrary to his own record throughout this conflict. Remember that Damascus has shown restraint in the face of international war crimes committed against it by Israel, Turkey and other regional actors who have been fomenting the conflict in Syria for more than two years.



s-1.jpg


And so we see once again that we are living in what French philosopher and cultural critic Guy Debord called ‘The Society of the Spectacle’– a world in which representation of truth is more important than truth itself, where videos of unknown origin and without verification take the place of authentic evidence and investigation, where wars that will destroy millions of lives and future generations are manufactured by paid actors on television who merely masquerade as journalists. All this leads many to wonder whether the United States is really as stupid as it seems.
Whether folks like it or not, there've ALWAYS been people OUTSIDE of group boundary divides that work together - regardless of the images they place up - and this has been present in politics for decades. So much of what goes down today - even with others choosing to take on roles - is scripted (like the film "Wag the Dog" ) and we seem shocked by it. We shouldn't....

There will never be any changing of the bottom line fact that we already have ignored in the U.S the many ways in which we helped to create the problems that exist in Syria - and sad to say, we've chosen to ignore those who are suffering because of the sides we're choosing to fund - Just like with Korea when it came to manufacturing a crisis and making ourselves look like the hero ( #52 #74 ), never mind many of the facts that got ignored in the process.

WE need prayer as well as those who are persecuting believers (as well as Muslims ) when it comes to the Islamist rise to power.....and how many in the U.S have condemned it while not thinking that we had a hand in it. As said before, I don't believe for one second that the President is a Muslim nor do I believe that it requires the man being Muslim to do many of the actions he has done and have shared elsewhere on that (more here/here and here in #46, #90 and #202 ) - for I do see it where he has supported their causes as well as Christian ones selectively - and is very pragmatic/seemingly for Utilitarianism.

And yet I agree with others who've noted in their research the fascinating dynamics of what is shaping up in the Middle East - one of them being a read given to me by another sister in Christ....with that read addressing how it's not unreasonable to consider a design with our intervention when seeing the re-creation of the Ottoman Empire with U.S Intervention - particularly when seeing how the pattern seen in ‘Arab Spring’ interventions began in Balkans in 1990s....more shared at Kosovo | There Must be Justice:​









__________________​


 
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Gnarwhal

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Given the track record of the CIA intelligence community on poison gas and WMD, I think we should wait a bit longer before we jump on their bandwagon.

I find what Assad has done to be vile and unconscionable. That being said, what will the Muslim rebels do when they take power!? Prepare for an all-out persecution against Orthodox Christians in Syria. Prepare for a new inquisition.

The U.N. has the responsibility to deal with this, not always America's police force---basically the U.S.!

I think it's a purely U.N. matter and the Pope and Orthodox patriarchs are right on this one.

You're right it's kind of a no-win situation. At some level Assad has been more "tolerant" of a Christian presence in Syria whereas al-Qaeda undoubtedly would not. On the other hand, the fact that 110,000 people have died in two years under Assad's rule and 5-7,000,000 have been displaced doesn't bode well for his leadership.

As far as CIA intel goes, yeah I'd prefer second and third opinions when it comes to WMD. Although it seems as though France and the U.K. are corroborating the intel.

I think just lobbing a few cruise missiles where chemical weapons stockpiles are supposed to be won't address the full issue. I mean shoot, the stockpiles could be relocated by the time the order finally comes down. I mean ultimately both sides would have to be defeated for true peace to come to Syria, the al-Qaeda presence would have to be removed and Assad deposed - but that's a level of involvement akin to Iraq and nobody wants nor intends to "go back that way".
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Good Words to consider as it concerns speaking up and contacting our leaders - although I do wonder how effective it'll be when it comes to seeing the ways things seem to be set for other goals in the end that people behind the scenes want to have done.

But intervention, if done by our nation, should be done with wisdom - and although I think intervention is a good thing many times, the way it gets done with the U.S doesn't seem wise.

I appreciate what another believer noted when it came to intervention in ways many have not considered (especially the view called just peacemaking which supports the prevention of war through nonviolent direct action and cooperative conflict resolution - much of it being based on pre-emptive action and being serious about curtailing Black Market arms dealing/withdrawing support for others who choose to fund violence):

I think what should be considered is that others asking for intervention need to understand that you open the door for a lot more than you bargin for when demanding the military get involved in violent situations abroad.

There's a reason President Eisenhower said to beware of the military industrial complex

People are often attracted to the biggest man on the block - and not many plan for the fact that others will often become MORE aggressive toward others who use their abilities to appear as the strongest...and they'll attack regardless of consequences - AS the military industrial complex has experienced and yet allowed many times.

Moreover, as was warned by the Founders of the nation, a large military establishment will be used more often in wars, rather than as a deterrent. This is not just theory, but fact...for we have been engaged in military exploits for years and years...and yet in many ways, we do not have peace.

Indeed, Dwight D. Eisenhower even warned against it when leaving office - and not many took him seriously. There's an excellent documentary on the issue entitled "Why We Fight"...



As General /President Dwight D. Eisenhower said:

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.”
 
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AlaskaFan

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I think Kerry has been engaging in fear tactics by calling this our "Munich moment".

The difference was that Bush and his neo-con cronies like Wolfowitz sold us the b.s. lie that there would be a mushroom cloud and attack and world war III Armageddon if we didn't go into Iraq. They scared us to death and told everyone 9-11 was linked to Iraq. Lies, ALL LIES! (in my best Frau Farbisena from Austin Powers voice!)

With Obama, it's a weak, honest "let's go slap 'em on the wrist!" mission.

Both are absurd, but the first one was full of trickery, deceit, fear-mongering at its best, and $$$$ agendas for Cheney and Halliburton. Obama's mission lacks the fear and mushroom clouds effect! ^_^
 
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Dorothea

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No US (which is basically the only country hell bent on doing this) bombing of Syria or any other country. I would consider that an act of war, and just looking at our track record, it is dismal and failures across the board. Trying to and succeeding in removing dictators in those areas of the world only causes the terrorists and extremists groups to infiltrate and end up causing more deaths and carnage.

I've found after much thought the past few weeks that dictators are a necessity in the M.E. because they keep a lid on the extremists, and there is a bit of peace and some freedom for the Christians and other religious minorities living in those places.

Gurney, is right. Our government doesn't give a fig about people dying in Syria or anywhere else. They don't even care about their own people (us) living here dying through poverty, poisonous food supplies, the drugs instead of finding alternatives to living healthy, etc It's all about power, control, and money.
 
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Dorothea

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If we tout ourselves on helping others so much, then bombing countries which results in more deaths, isn't the answer. If we want to help others, we should show that through peaceful actions such as humanitarian efforts and helping the countries surrounding the war-torn ones who have so many refugees, they can barely hold them all.
 
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rusmeister

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Honestly, I'm on the fence about whether Russia ought to intervene in YOUR home state. After all, with the number of firearms murders, and other crimes that authorities don't seem to be able to solve, maybe a few well-placed cruise missles would scare people into ending crime. Plus, Russians don't know any of you. You are hardly people to them, so I'm sure the Russian people wouldn't object much to Russian government action, and might even support it, especially if they are told that the crime is actually instigated by your own state government.
 
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rakovsky

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Dorothea,

You have a Christian, humanitarian analysis, showing the US should avoid attacking Syria, and should re-orient itself toward using goodwill to persuade people, rather than using attacks.

Cogent,

One is right to be skeptical about Syria using chemical weapons, based on what happened with Iraq.

The Metropolitan is right in his wise words about avoiding war.

image.img.jpg

Colin Powell - 10 years ago telling the UN Iraq had WMDs that it did not.

syria-rebels-chemical.jpg

Now: Foreign "rebels" using chemical weapons.
The rocket-launcher shown in the image above resembles the weapon in a Syrian TV report that purports to show rebel forces in Syria preparing a chemical attack.
Obama critics still ask for ‘smoking gun’ in Syria
 
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ArmyMatt

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I'm not pro-war, and I'm still on the fence with whether or not we should intervene in Syria. At any rate though, how are we supposed to let chemical weapons slide? I mean, it sets a precedent doesn't it? If Syria uses Sarin, then so can Egypt, Iran, North Korea and so on and so forth, right? Obviously I don't mean that literally, but isn't that sort of the message the U.S., U.K., France and the United Nations as a whole give the world if Syria in fact has used chemical weapons with no response?

WMD's in Iraq was a load of crap, but at this point it seems like the existence of chemical weapons in Syria and the actual use of them is a bit more likely.

7 out of the 9 rebel groups are affiliated with Al-Qaeda, you really want to fight for them? plus, there was an earlier chemical weapon strike in Syria, that we initially thought was Assad, but it turned out to be one of the radical rebel groups.

and gurney, the current one is full of lies as well. only Secy Kerry has stated that over 1000 people were killed in the gas attack. everyone else, including Doctors without borders, put the number much lower.

plus, before the Iraq War, many vehicles crossed the Syrian border. it would be ironic if these would be the very WMDs that were in Iraq. only time will tell
 
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Gnarwhal

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7 out of the 9 rebel groups are affiliated with Al-Qaeda, you really want to fight for them? plus, there was an earlier chemical weapon strike in Syria, that we initially thought was Assad, but it turned out to be one of the radical rebel groups.

Honestly I either want to fight both or neither. I don't support Assad (although Dot has an interesting point - that in the Near East a dictatorship may be a "necessary evil") and I don't want to support al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Hamas or any other radical elements that might be in Syria by this point.

I hadn't heard that a chemical attack was conducted by the rebels, was it reported in many sources?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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The story we are told does not make sense, and since it's not a defensive war, in fact it can only create more danger for the US, it does not follow Just War theory.
We are told that terrorism by Muslim fundamentalists is the number 1 threat, yet here we are arming foreign "rebel" fundamentalists to destroy a secular government that protects Christians, based on the claim the government used chemical weapons, the evidence for which the American people are not allowed to be shown.


Is this a repeat of the destructive Iraq invasion over non-existent WMDs?
Technically...




From a long-term perspective, it seems to be a big battle of misdirection - and setting things up for grander scale developments (no different than what occurred in Star Wars with the Emperor playing both sides of the field - Seperatists and the Republic - for the sake of building other things up in the future that'd engulf them both....and having battle fronts seen as the main area which distracted from other developments going on).

To be more specific, while everybody seems all worried about Syria (as we should be) - as well as what may eventually go down with Iran (which would be the immediate people that are gone after if Syria is taken out), there are others with a view toward the future who've noted what much of the media doesn't seem to be reporting on....and that's the fact of the significant build-up of US military facilities and activity in Africa - with many countries we've already messed up (Egypt, Libya, etc.) and commonly associated with the "Middle East" being signs of where things are going.

If interested, here's an in-depth article on the issue that did an interesting job indicating how it might be the case that the US is trying to get ahead of the curve as Islamic extremist groups have made inroads on the continent for a long time - and despite where Africa has experienced much economic growth/development, colonialism on the rise has come back.


AfricaMilitaryMapLegend630.jpg




Many are shocked at the U.S military presence in Africa ...and yet it was already the case that we were willing to use force to maintain involvement in African soil for the sake of the oil.

The reason the US is gaining such military interest in central Africa is because US oil companies have recently gained contracts in central Africa...alas, still with Muslim countries that strenuously oppress Christians.

And this goes beyond the threat of Muslims extremists potentially gaining footholds in African territory...

In example, ChevronTexaco brought the Niger River Delta to near-destruction through similar oil spills and toxic fallout from their refineries. As it turns out, when local women there could no longer make a living fishing (as they had for generations) because of the pollution, they protested and asked Chevron to clean up the devestation they created. In response, Chevron hired local mercenaries to deal with the protest who ended up killing some of the women and burning their boats. Sadly, the courts later decided that Chevron was not responsible for the actions of the mercenaries they hired……

And this is something the U.S has often done REPEATEDLY in Africa when it comes to working with terrorists and supplying them militarily....

As someone else said best, “Imagine BP’s Deep water Horizon Gulf oil disaster happening every single year, with little or no public outcry, no media coverage, and all but silence from government and the companies involved. Welcome to Nigeria.”




chevwrongnigeriaad450width.jpg





For more info on the subject, one can go online and look up the following under their respective titles:
As one native said on the issue, as it relates to why the United States should care, and the moral implications of the ongoing tragedy:
“With 606 oilfields, the Niger delta supplies 40% of all the crude the United States imports and is the world capital of oil pollution. Life expectancy in its rural communities, half of which have no access to clean water, has fallen to little more than 40 years over the past two generations. Locals blame the oil that pollutes their land and can scarcely believe the contrast with the steps taken by BP and the US government to try to stop the Gulf oil leak and to protect the Louisiana shoreline from pollution.”
Ben Ikari, a member of the Ogoni people, put it simply. “If this Gulf accident had happened in Nigeria, neither the government nor the company would have paid much attention,” Ikari said. “This kind of spill happens all the time in the delta. The oil companies just ignore it. The lawmakers do not care and people must live with pollution daily. The situation is now worse than it was 30 years ago. Nothing is changing. When I see the efforts that are being made in the U.S. I feel a great sense of sadness at the double standards.”

Seeing how the problems escalating in the Middle-East have gotten all alarmed, it's not a surprise to see military build-up in the African world ....but I think it'd be wisdom for others to note that some of that build up was to protect the pre-existing MILITARY presence we were allowing via capitalist endeavors in Africa (through corrupt corporations that provide resources people in the U.S crave when it comes to oil) - and that so happened to agree with the potential reality of power shifting if new oil contracts were granted.

And that, sad to say, is but one aspect of the ways the U.S has been seeking to gain a foothold on the continent LONG before the entire Middle East Crisis arose. In example, remember the KONY 2012 and KONY 2013 where Joseph Kony of the LRA in Uganda (and his use of child soldiers/murdering them as well as abusing them and killing many) was a focus - with others asking the president to send military aid to intervene. The entire KONY 2012 dynamic was highly intriguing to witness.

I remember when those videos like KONY 2012 came out - and I was glad President decided to take action on the issue by supply U.S troops to go there/address the issue. Been following the work of Invisible Children for years....and the work they've been seeking to do in bringing awareness on the subject is truly a blessing..and I'm thankful for the ways they have sought to bring the matter to the service. Although others have noted where the organization of Invisible Children have done some things which others feel are a bit out of order, the goal of bringing awareness to issues is needed...and I'm glad to be apart of that as are others.

And yet, as another noted, "A well crafted video doesn't equal the full truth." On Joseph Kony and the evil the man has done, as said there (for a brief excerpt):
"During the past decade, U.S.-based activists concerned about the LRA have successfully, if quietly, pressured the George W. Bush and Obama administrations to take a side in the fight between the LRA and the Ugandan government. ... In their campaigns, such organizations have manipulated facts for strategic purposes, exaggerating the scale of LRA abductions and murders and emphasizing the LRA's use of innocent children as soldiers, and portraying Kony -- a brutal man, to be sure -- as uniquely awful, a Kurtz-like embodiment of evil. They rarely refer to the Ugandan atrocities or those of Sudan's People's Liberation Army, such as attacks against civilians or looting of civilian homes and businesses, or the complicated regional politics fueling the conflict."

Sober thoughts, in regards to the reality of addressing symptoms before diseases and how it can be both a victory as well as a defeat if figureheads of movements are taken out without addressing the larger practices that they/other groups feed off of....

And as much as others were asking the president to give military aid for the Ugandan issue of terrorism, it's ironic that we now are involved significantly in African culture with the military - and the people may regret we got involved to begin with.​



It was already amazing to consider the many ways that the U.S had already been doing what Kony did when it came to the military training CHILD Soldiers to be used in battle. Condeming all forms of child soldiers is hypocritical AS it concerns how the U.S got involved with ending the child soldier issue in Uganda when the nation was already noted for supporting child soldiers in other countries near it...Somalia being one of them. The context of support was that those child soldiers were fighting against terrorists, but many have noted getting the U.S involved would require addressing a myriad of other problems as well. For reference:
Odd people may treat the U.S as a savior for getting involved against an evil even when the U.S may support the same evil in certain settings​


And as it concerns build-up in Africa, I do wonder if we'll end up creating the same kind of mess that led to things like al-Queda being developed to combat an evil we said we were against...and then later having to turn against it as if it developed on it's own when it turns out to become a problem.​
 
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rakovsky

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I hadn't heard that a chemical attack was conducted by the rebels, was it reported in many sources?

Cogent,

It was not reportedly widely on CNN, but European news ran the story, and you can read about it on the internet, fortunately. Also, the AP is a pretty common, widespread source for US News, and they reported it too.

For example:
As reported in the Mint Press News by Associated Press reporter Dale Gavlak, Syrians from the town of Ghouta – the site of the chemical attack – tell a very different story from the one being told by the US government. Residents provide very credible testimony that “certain rebels received chemical weapons via the Saudi intelligence chief, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, and were responsible for carrying out the dealing gas attack.”

What makes such testimony even more compelling is that it comes from anti-Assad Syrians, many of whom have seen their children die fighting Assad’s forces. One of the Ghouta residents described his conversations with his son, a fighter tasked with carrying the chemical weapons for the Nusra Front jihadi group, who spoke of Saudi-supplied weapons being unloaded and transported. His son later was killed, along with 12 other rebels, inside a tunnel used to store weapons.
Debunking Obama’s Chemical Weapons Case Against the Syrian Government » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

It is good you are hesitant to believe things, Cogent. What happens with the mass news is that they pump the story they and the government want the public to believe. This is how we got into the Iraq chaos when there were no WMDs and the government had no evidence of them of course.
 
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