Messianic Muslims

[ShaulHaTarsi]

Oh, so you googled a secular link that says so? What about a Messianic Jewish Christian or a Judaic Christian? Where did you ever come up with the idea or conclude that all Messianic Jews are non-Christians? Orthodox Jews refer to Messianic Jews as being "Christians" so maybe you are a Messianic Gentile Christian or is it Christian Messianic Gentile?

I didn't google a secular link which says so. I take this from The Rambam, otherwise known as Miamonides and is in general traditional Jewish belief (google if you don't know who he was). This is the reason that Orthodox Jews are generally permitted to enter and even pray inside mosques while they are forbidden to enter churches. Because such information is difficult to come across online, and especially in English, the best I can do is this snippet: http://lookstein.org/articles/judaismonislamchristianitysources.pdf

I don't see where I implied that Messianic Jews are not Christians. What I did say is that to conclude that Christians do not worship the same God as Muslism is to also conclude that Christians do not worship the same God as Halachic/Pharisaic Judaism.

When I said "non-Christian/Messianic Jews", it should be read as non-(Christian/Messianic) Jews, not (non-Christian)/(Messianic Jews). Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion?

 

[AbbaLove]

I don't see where I implied that Messianic Jews are not Christians.

As a side note, non-Christian/Messianic Jews believe that they and Muslims worship the very same God despite them having different scriptures.

What I did say is that to conclude that Christians do not worship the same God as Muslism is to also conclude that Christians do not worship the same God as Halachic/Pharisaic Judaism.

Halachic/Pharisaic Judaism does not worship the same Godhead as Christians/Messianic Jews that read and believe the Brit Chadashah (New Covenant).

John 20:27-29
27 Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas replied, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed.”…

When I said "non-Christian/Messianic Jews" it should be read as non-(Christian/Messianic) Jews, not (non-Christian)/(Messianic Jews). Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion?

So why didn't you just say, "As a side note, Orthodox Jews believe that they and Muslims worship the very same God despite them having different scriptures" ... if that is what you really believe? So, what is the difference then between saying "non-(Christian/Messianic) Jews" and Orthodox Jews with your clarification of "non-(Christian/Messianic) Jews."

 

[ShaulHaTarsi]

So why didn't you just say, "As a side note, Orthodox Jews believe that they and Muslims worship the very same God despite them having different scriptures" ... if that is what you really believe? So, what is the difference then between saying "non-(Christian/Messianic) Jews" and Orthodox Jews with your clarification of "non-(Christian/Messianic) Jews."

There is no difference. I also corrected my post to remove the confusion. Of course one can say that one can be a non-Orthodox Jew without also being Christian, for example a Reform or Conservative Jew...

My original comment was in light of these two posts

Reminds me of the Lord saying you can not have two masters. Allah and God are going to be tussled top spot in the mind, then follows which rules rule the heart.

Mohammad did not know the name of God, that is why he used the name of a Pagan god. Alilah=Allah.

Which I understood to claim that the Muslim understanding of Allah is in somehow different from the (non-Christian!!) Jewish understanding of God (Elohim, Y'HWH, etc.)

 

[Heber Book List]

Can anyone show any serious academic work to support these claims? Google throws up anything, as does Wikipedia and various independent pages, too; these should not be taken at face value.

 

[AbbaLove]

What I did say is that to conclude that Christians do not worship the same God as Muslism is to also conclude that Christians do not worship the same God as Halachic/Pharisaic Judaism.

And what I said is that Muslimism and Halachic/Pharisaic Judaism does not recognize Yeshua as the Lamb of GOD, their LORD and Saviour.

John 20:27-29
27 Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas replied, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed.”…
... AND ...
John 14:5-7
5 “Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
7 If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now you do know Him and have seen Him.”…

 

[CherubRam]

I don't really understand what the author of this text is trying to say. All Muslims believe Jesus was the Messiah, although maybe the key is in "Messianic Muslims consider Jesus to be the Messiah for the Jews, Muslims and Christians", since Muslims generally consider Jesus Christ a prophet only for the Jews. It also seems he Christianised Islam by implying the Son is consubstantial to the Father ("he was in essence the same as Allah").

This is not true, Al-ilah means simply "the god", and "Allah" is an syncope of "Al-ilah". I believe the much older Aramaic word "Aloho" is also a cognate of "Allah".

This info comes from the ancient Babylonian cuneiform tablets.
Alilah was part of a trinity of sun gods, Alilah, Chemosh, and Nirgal. Alilah is the Babylonian "morning sun god." Al / il / ah Means: The god ascends. Chemosh was the midday sun, and Nirgal was the after sunset, sun god.

 

[RaphaCam]

Alilah was part of a trinity of sun gods, Alilah, Chemosh, and Nirgal. Alilah is the Babylonian "morning sun god."

Never heard about this trinity (although you may be right), but, still, the only things the Allah of Arabian paganism shares with the Allah of Islam are probably the name and the "supremeness". They are both "the god" (al-ilah).

Al / il / ah Means: The god ascends.

No, al-ilah means "the god" in Arabic. A god in Arabic is called "ilah", which is cognate to Hebrew "Eloah", a word which you must know.

 

[CherubRam]

Never heard about this trinity (although you may be right), but, still, the only things the Allah of Arabian paganism shares with the Allah of Islam are probably the name and the "supremeness". They are both "the god" (al-ilah).

No, al-ilah means "the god" in Arabic. A god in Arabic is called "ilah", which is cognate to Hebrew "Eloah", a word which you must know.

Over the years the language changed. "IL" means (god.) Ancient Aramaic and Hebrew was “IL” for God and later changed to “EL” for God. Here is the proof:


Matthew 27:46


About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).



Mark 15:34


And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

 

[anna ~ grace]

To clarify... As a former Muslim who now follows and adores Christ, Allah and God the Father are not the same God. Though many Arabic speaking Jews and Christians say "Allah" to refer to the God of Israel and the Nations, the Allah of Islam is not that God.

The Quran calls Isa the Messiah, yet forbids honoring Him as one would honor God, denies His Sonship, denies His role as Savior and Mediator, denies His death by crucifixion, and denies His Resurrection from the dead.

There are some Muslims who have come to faith in Christ, yet most of these identify as ex-Muslims, as Christians, or break clear ties with their former beliefs as to the Quran being God's Word, and Muhammad being a Prophet of God. And if you deny the Quran as God's Perfect Word and Muhammad as God's Prophet, there's no point in calling one's self a Muslim.

Islam and Judaism may have a lot in common culturally and to some extent theologically, but the God who gave Moses the Torah did not also give Muhammad the Quran, no matter what some Orthodox Jews may think.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Secondly, and weirdly, as we know the name of Jesus in Hebrew is spelled Yod-Shin-Waw-Ayn. In Arabic as spoken and written by Christians traditionally, His Name is spelled with the corresponding Arabic letters, and is pronounced kinda like Yah-soo-ah.

In the Quran, the name Isa is spelled Ayn-Yod-Shin-Yod, which is very nearly Yeshua backwards! That is bizarre. And though His Name is pronounced by some Aramaic speaking Christians as Isho, the corresponding Aramaic letters are still the familiar Yod-Shin-Waw-Ayn equivalents.

This is not the same Messiah.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Modern Orthodox / Talmudic / Pharisic Jews believe a lot of things. Not all of these beliefs are accurate. I think we need to exercise great care as to how much of a pedestal we place Traditional Judaism on. Do the beliefs and opinions of Orthodox Judaism define our faith, or does our Jewish Messiah, Lord, and Savior?

The New Testament is a Jewish Book. Paul's line of theological reasoning and illustrative methods are so Jewish, one could well think that in places one is reading from the Talmud. We are already a deeply Judaic faith. But how much we inherently trust a theological opinion simply because it comes from a Gaon or revered Hasid needs care.