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Messianic Judaism and the Trinity

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by janwoG, Aug 22, 2010.

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  1. janwoG

    janwoG My heart leads me to Messianic Judaism

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    In the name of our only One God, by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the Shoa has promoted the resurrection of the Church of Jerusalem (Jewish Christianity), the Church of Simon, James, Mathew, Mark, and John.
    The Messianic Jews have two important missions, the one to make known Yeshua the Mashiyach among their fellow Jews. The second, not less important, is to be witness to the Pauline Church about the Jewish roots of Christianity and to increase the awareness to that topic in mainstream Christianity.
    I am saddened that among Messianic Jews, that the Trinity is still an issue of division. Trinity is just a Greek label of what Yeshua has linked in the same sentence: Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit.(Mathews 28.19). Could someone helps us in giving an Hebrew label of this linkeage? Those can have only a very limited impact on the Pauline Church who holds to the non-Trinitiarian Modalist Monarchianism that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are mere manifestations of the same God. Or in other words, the Father is the Son, the Son is the Holy Ghost.
    Could someone translate into Hebraic Father and Son in the formula of “in the Name of the only One Elohim, by the Father, the Son, and the Ruach haKodesh ?
    Let us pray Adonai that He leads us on the right path.
     
  2. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    There is a lot available for this kind of thing. The Catholics in particular are years ahead of everyone else on translating prayers, Bibles and liturgies into the vernacular for Jews and Israelis.

    The baptismal formula could be said B'shem Ha'Av v'HaBen v'HaRuach HaKodesh

    I don't think it's common to say more than that regarding God's Unity in that formula.

    Of course, one's accent could transliterate it differently, but this would be pretty close to the mark.
     
  3. Desert Rose

    Desert Rose Newbie

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    yeap good summary CM

    what for you need to know it ,janwog? is it just for entertainement or deepening of worship ( God, naturally, understands you in any tongue) or where are you headed ,brother? If somewhere where everybody speaks hebrew only - hard to imagine such place in Israel, unless you aim for clinically orthodox neighborhoods, similar to infamous mea shearim , but then watch out what you do, or your problems wont be not limited to not knowing the language only ;) :)
     
  4. janwoG

    janwoG My heart leads me to Messianic Judaism

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    To Desert Rose:
    I am surprised to get this kind of reaction in this forum. However, I thank you for your post since I have the opportunity to clarify this issue. The Netzarim are a messianic group who are adept of Jesus but reject the Trinity as Greek Pagan Construct. With regard to Israel, they have a strategic advantage over the Trinitarian Messianic. Netzarim are recognized by the Rabbinate of Jerusalem as Jews and entitled to Aliyah (return to Israel). The Trinitarian Messianic are considered as Christian Polytheists and are denied to settle in Israel. Trinity is the Latin translation of a Greek label of the saying of Jesus.(Mathews 28.19) I try to describe how the Trinity functions. God Father has deep its roots in the Godly Ground (Godhead), the Absolute and Eternal Isness of God’s essence, Jewish mystics call En Sof. En Sof confers the Father His Divinity, Who in turn transfers His Divinity by expressing His Word (the Son) and breathing out His Spirit, the Holy Ghost, Who are the three Divine Persons of One Essence En Sof. Although, the Trinity is uncomfortable for a Monotheistic Religion, it corresponds to a reality of the Holy Writ
    Modalism would be even more uncomfortable. Take the following of the Gospel: And when Jesus had been baptized,…, suddenly he saw the Spirit of God , descending like a dove and alighting Him. And a voice from heaven said, this is my Son, the Beloved, with Whom I am well pleased. (Mathew, 3.16-17) In a modalism interpretation, Yahweh took the aspect of a dove, then took possession of Jesus on Earth. Since the full of Yahweh was with Jesus on the earth, whose voice spoke in the Heaven? Certainly not En Sof, since It is not a person but a State of Absolute Isness. To replace Trinity by a Hebraic concept describing the same reality would ease the discussion, since Messianic Jews estimate that there are too much Greek Pagan philosophy and customs mixed with Christian Doctrine in the Pauline Church. An instructive reading about this issue is the Book of the Netzarim Rabbi Carmen Walker, “Should Christians be Torah Observant?, although I do not share Her Modalism. With regard to the importance of the Hebraic language, I recommend you to see the website of Trinitarian Conservative, if not Orthodox) Messianic Jews “Messianic Bureau International” to paste in Google search.
    I pray that the Holy Ghost leads us Desert Rose and JanwoG on the right path.
     
  5. Desert Rose

    Desert Rose Newbie

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    what of all a sudden ? :) I meant no disrespect, dear. You asked translation, i asked what in particular do you need it for? You can have the entire bible in translated, transliterated, etc. blue red or polka dotted form if needed. resources are plentiful online.

    THat i find extremely hard to believe. Unless they are tricksters who found some loopholes, and go as relatives of people of Jewishs descent there is NO WAY rabbinut would allow a christian of any stripe into the land legally under aliya rules
    Check the Law of return, it hasnt been revised

    trinitarian or not, if Yeshua is God, resurrected Messiah to them, then no, they are not considered Jews and not allowed. unless they are not believers in the highlighted...



    Poly, mono or anything CHRISTIAN in the description are not allowed, but denied

    If you confident you know something i dont, give me links. But I checked it, strange......
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
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  6. anisavta

    anisavta Never Forget!

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    I agree with you Desert Rose.

    Sounds like another verse of the same song that has been sung for centuries - how to discredit the deity of Yeshua.
     
  7. Desert Rose

    Desert Rose Newbie

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    thats what it was? ;) i felt that something smells fishy in the whole deal
     
  8. Bananna

    Bananna Contributor Supporter

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    They didn't happen to mention where they are allowed to Aliyah too in Israel did they?
    No disception, Rabbis are allowing Catholic Jews back in Israel. They have a whole retraining school for Jews who had their Judaism stripped away from them by force in the Spanishi inquisition. A name on the list and one remnant tradition is all it takes as far as I can tell. They are kept in a separate area and retrained. At present they are not made to renounce Christ because of the trauma they endured.
    They live in a kind of buffer zone from what I can tell.

    We have a friend helping educate the Spanish Jews and send them back to Israel. He figures if they get enough irate spanish guys getting bombed they may just fight back and take back te Golan Heights...

    bananna
     
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  9. jt4Jesus

    jt4Jesus Give me the revelation

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    hi, i hope i'm not intruding...
    i'm not jewish. actually, i'm from tanzania - but the point is, i love israel and its people. i believe firmly in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - and Elijah, and i believe that Jesus is the Son of the Father, and that together with the Holy Spirit, they are the one true God. i'm trying 2 read the bible in chronological order 2 get more of an overview of the history of the israelites, but there are so many differing versions/points of view of the order in which the books were written, so not much fulfilment at the moment. if any1 cd shed some light on the matter, it wd be great :)
    don't know u, but love u guys. Shalom xx
     
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  10. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    Shalom to all,
    First of all I want you to know that this post in no way is meant to be devisive but I thought it worth sharing concerning the passage of Matthew 28:19.
    (Right now I can't say one way or the other what my views are on the subject, whether I lean toward trinitarian or God as Abba, God as the Son, and God as the Holy Spirit. Ketuvei HaShelichim tends to uphold the trinitarian view....?? So, I'm not dogmatic either way, still open to the Spirit's revelation.)
    I'm only sharing one of about 20 different statements concerning baptizing in the Name of "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (or Ghost as some versions use).

    "The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:

    Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsover I have commanded you." That "Name" is Jesus.

    If you are interested in reading more on this subject, I'll be happy to share. I just think it's important to know when translators choose to take it on themselves to add their interpretations into the text proper (such as Mark 7:19, "Thus Jesus declard that all foods are clean," which, at least, is noted that this is an addition not found in the earlier texts).
     
  11. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    Classic misquote/misinterpretation of Eusebius. He is not quoting from a book in his library or giving an account of the text, but giving a paraphrase of Matthew in an apology for Christianity. Quite often he paraphrases scripture, it's pretty normal. Check out the original source yourself if you don't believe me. Here (para 132) Furthermore, to prove he is paraphrasing, there is no known manuscript with a variant pertaining to the Trinitarian formula.

    There is absolutely no doubt that Eusebius and most other Christians before him were baptised using the Trinitarian formula. We have testimony the preceeds the canon of scripture (Check out the Didache, Ch. 7, dated between 50 and 120 AD, most likely early) There's so much testimony to this it really staggers the mind how JWs and Oneness teachers still try to prove their doctrine using textual criticism and the Early Christians.
     
  12. Bananna

    Bananna Contributor Supporter

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    Ah but definitions can vary especially over very long time periods. I'm not even sure we are seeing communication yet...
    bananna
     
  13. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    What does that mean?
     
  14. Bananna

    Bananna Contributor Supporter

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    Contra, it means that sometimes I could agree with what you printed, but I doubt our deffinitions are the same, and I can hardly know if I'm supposed to agree or not.
    (sigh)
    But I enjoyed your post.
    bananna
     
  15. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    OK....I think I get it. I'm slow on the uptake lately. Forgive me.
     
  16. Son of Israel

    Son of Israel New Member

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    As a monotheistic Jew who accepted Christ, I rejoice in Jesus my Messiah. He was the Son of God of course, but He "ascended" to Father. He is the Bridegroom, we are His Bride. That is most certainly not a barren relationship. He has Children by her.
    When He died on the Cross as that O.T. Husband to Israel, Israel was "widowed". Not being associated with any denomination or theological positions, simply led by the Holy Spirit of Christ in receiving His Wisdom out of scripture, I haven't had to contend with the issues that trinitarians seem to always bring forth in "dividing up" God into three persons. That is very confusing to a devout Bible believing Jew. One doesn't need to go into any other language to understand the simplicity in Christ.
    Since it is scripturaly and experientially clear to me that Jesus is the Husband to Israel now in the New Covenant, I know Him as my Father. In my relationship with my Christian brothers and sisters, we all together are as His Wife. As such, we become pregnant with "Christ in us" in our relationship to our husband Jesus. We have become "one" in Him.
    By His Glorious Holy Spirit of His very own self, He "sows His incorruptibles Seed" into us, His Wife, thereby we contain and bring forth in our lives that "man child", the Son of God. Christ in us :)
    To be baptised into the "Name" of the Lord Jesus Christ means the same thing to us as being baptised into the "Name" of the Father Son Holy Spirit.
    I hope this helps :)
    Blessings in Christ!
     
  17. jt4Jesus

    jt4Jesus Give me the revelation

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    Son of Israel, you share in a way i have never considered before, and yet, bearing in mind all the scriptural support, i cannot refuse or disagree. i am confused and have clarity all at once. many questions spring to mind and are immediately answered. in some way you must have helped, but i feel the need to know more. perhaps in another thread or another time, as we could expound upon other things that would not connect directly to the subject at hand.

    you have left me wondering.
     
  18. Ely'hoenai ben Abraham

    Ely'hoenai ben Abraham Newbie

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    Once there was a nice Jewish boy named Yah-ah-KOHB. One night he and a MAN wrestled-all through the night, in fact. The nice Jewish boy sought a blessing, received a name-change to Yees-rah-AYL and a crippled hip joint, then proceeded to build an altar of worship. He named the place P'nee-AYL--"...for I have seen God face to face, and lived." Fast forward to the narrative in the B'soh-RAH according to Yoh-khah-NAHN hash-shah-lee-AKH (John the Apostle). He writes--UNDER DIVINE INSPIRATION--NO man has seen God at any time; the only Son-Who is in the bosom of the Father-has made Him known. So I ask to the NON-trinitarians, IF Yees-rah-AYL wrestled with GOD, but NO MAN has ever SEEN the Father, WHO, WHO, WHO did he SEE???? In the T'hee-LEEM (Psalms) it says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, etc." but the writer of the letter the the y'hoo-DEEM m'shee-KHEETH says--UNDER DIVINE INSPIRATION--these words were spoken by our God and Father TO HIS SON. If God the Father refers to His only Son (known in his incarnation as Yay-SHOO-uh) as eternal God and Creator, then anyone who says he's NOT is wrong. A man and woman become eh-KHAHD. Two sticks in the prophet's hand are eh-KHAHD. Sh'MAH Yees-rah-AYL YHVH eh-loh-HAY-noo YHVH eh-KHAHD!!!!!!! YHVH our God is a composite one!! The supposed pagan sources are a ruined glimmer of the truth that goes back to before the origin of the universe. Yay-SHOO-uh said, "I came down from Heaven to do the will of him who sent me." Unless he pre-existed his incarnation, he couldn't COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN. The prophecy in Mee-KAH says Mah-SHEE-akh's origins-or FAMILY DESCENT-are from of old, from everlasting. Lastly, it is written "For there are three who bear witness in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit--and these three are one (in the Greek it's literally: these three IS one)"
     
  19. Ely'hoenai ben Abraham

    Ely'hoenai ben Abraham Newbie

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    As our koh-HAYN gah-DOHL rab-BAH (great high priest) Mah-SHEE-akh Yay-SHOO-uh prayed in consecration to His Heavenly Father, He said, Glorify me with the glory I had with You before the world was." How can a mere man of less than fifty years old have glory with God BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE----UNLESS the Person dwelling in the tent of Yay-SHOO-uh's flesh existed WITH God the Father before creation. And if the Word is distinct from God the Father, then unitarian Godhead (to use a gentile term) is false. Ab-rah-HAHM ah-VEE-noo called the Word of YHVH Ah-doh-NYE---the title of God
     
  20. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    I've asked others who post more than once here, so here goes:
    Could you PLEASE just type out whatever words you'd like to use? The large majority of folks here really can read properly transliterated words, many can even read the Hebo-rew with vowels and some can read Hebrew without the vowel markings.
    If you truly think you're audience does not know the words - THEN DON'T use them. (It doesn't make you more spiritual, it just makes for silliness.)
    Th-ose lo-o-ng wri-ten out TRANS-lit-er-A-she-ons are VE-ry DIF-i-cult to reed.
    Todah rabbah!!
     
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