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Messianic Jews and Calvinism

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by TWells, Apr 11, 2003.

  1. TWells

    TWells New Member

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    I was just wondering what most of you believe concerning predestination, election etc. or what the general consensus (if there is one) would be?

    Thanks
     
  2. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

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    Well I am not a Messianic Jew, I am a Messianic Gentile believer.. but I will answer what MY PERSONAL opinion is of predestination and election.

    I do believe some people are predestined or elected. But I do not believe that of all people.. in other words. I believe the Jews are elected and certain men in the bible were such as Peter, Paul, James, John, and other Apostles, prophets, and holy men.. and also predestined to do a certain work for the Lord.

    But I do not believe everyone that simply believes in Yeshua as Messiah is preordained to or elected to.

    This is a good discussion. I would be very interested in reading what a lot more Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles believe about this.

    As far as a general consenus of what is accepted on this issue since I have seen Messianics say different things reguarding the issue (I have seen some accept it and other rejected it), I cannot say if for sure there is an actual general stance in the Messianic faith on the issue.

    But I do know that in Orthodox Judaism it's not accepted. I can give you a source quote from Maimonides (Jewish philospher) if you would like on this very subject.

    Anyone else with any info on that ? I would like to know as well..

    Missy
     
  3. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

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  4. Talmid HaYarok

    Talmid HaYarok New Member

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    In the words of Justin Martyr (First Apology, Chapter 43):

    Deuteronomy 30:19

    Revelation 22:17

    The verses typically take out of context to support predestination aren't about who is going to be with the Lord, but rather the fate of those who choose of their own will has been predestined. The destination of the followers, not the followers themselves is what is pre-determined.

    Predestination has always been against Judaism (as the deuteronomy verse shows), and I know of no instance where Nazarene/Messianic Jews every broke away from that.
     
  5. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

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    Here is something else from the MJAA, I don't know if all Messianics would agree with this or not.. I am just posting it to give another aspect:

    Again it's from the MJAA site:

    "We believe that salvation has always been "by faith," and that works of law, or righteous acts, have never saved anyone"

    "Man's only hope for redemption (salvation) is through the atonement made by the Messiah "

    "For by grace we are saved through faith, it is a gift of God"

    Those quotes are from this page: http://mjaa.org/StatementOfFaith.html

    Twells it sort of seems like the MJAA does accept predestination and election from that but I am not sure since it doesn't come right out and say it.

    So I am not sure but does anyone think this means the MJAA supports predestination or election. Or are these to vague to actually say for sure ?

    I would appreciate anyone's input on the matter.

    Missy
     
  6. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

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    Thanks Talmid, this is exactly what I was wondering about. I learned as I stated in my first post that Orthodox Judaism doesn't accept it, but I wondered about Messianic Judaism because it seems different Messianics believe different things sometimes reguarding certain subjects. I didn't know whether or not though originally it was accepted or if it wasn't.

    I was wondering do you have any sources or anything from a Messianic organization or any other type of source book, net, article that states it's (the Messianic faith's) exact original stance on predestination and/or election ?

    Missy


     
     
  7. Talmid HaYarok

    Talmid HaYarok New Member

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    Well there are the works of Justin Martyr, the Clements, and some of the other early Church Fathers. Back in that time the Nazarene Sect was still one with the Gentile Christian Church.

    I know of nothing from an early Nazarene source. The best I can do is say that Rabbinics didn't hold it as one of their heresies that they held against Nazarenes. Something I feel fairly certain we'd have recorded if it was one of their complaints. Given the climate of early Rabbinics and Christians agreeing on this issue I can see little reason to believe why the Nazarenes would be any different and their is certainly no evidence to prove it.

    It certainly goes against all the traditional teachings of Messianics today too (Yes, I know some believe it anyways, but their reasons aren't tradition) whether from Europe, the Middle-east, or Ethiopia.

    The nail isn't in the coffin, but its pretty well shut anyways IMO.
     
  8. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

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    Yes, but where do you get info on your perception of the tradition of Messianics.. because you have some claiming one way is "Messianics tradition" and then another way saying something else is..

    Nevermind.. I will ask you in the thread I opened for you.. it is probably more appropriate there.

    Missy
     
  9. TWells

    TWells New Member

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    Thanks Missy and Talmid HaYarok for the replies and links. :wave:

    Ive been looking into the issue Arminian/Calvinism for awhile and I considered myself a  Calvinist for a while. The only problem is that is sucked all the joy I had in my faith right out. I dont consider myself one now and looking into the issue again. (just to let you know where im coming from.)

    I came across a article by JP Holding on www.tektonics.org concerning the TULIP. Ive always liked Holding because he always trys to include the first century (or previous) Jewish-Christian views into what he's discussing. The article that I thought was interesting discussed the greco-roman client-patron relationship. He basically argues that Pauls audience would have thought the idea of God giving them their faith as he gave them grace, nonsensical and wouldnt have understood it.

    Its made think a lot about how Christianity has developed doctrinally by Augustine, Calvin, Luther etc. - men who were seperated from the Apostles and the original audiences  by hundreds of years and an even farther difference in their mindset.

     
     
  10. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

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    That's what gets me all off track TWells.. because of the different spins that seem to have been put on Christianity from all the different doctrines. You have biblically one way(at least the way I see it in the Bible).. then you have people like Calvin, Luther, the Roman Catholic church, etc and they all seem to believe a little differently so I am like... what the heck is Christianity ?


    Missy
     
  11. TWells

    TWells New Member

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  12. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

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    I have a question for you Pray. You said this:
    But is that really predestination ? Predestination is the doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation.

    Knowing who will choose what doesn't neccessarily mean that one has elected anyone to do anything.

    For instance, If I know you will not steal a candy bar from WalMart, it doesn't mean that because I know that, that I have made it so you will not. It simply means I know what you will do and what you won't.

    Also I would like to point out using the definition of what predestination really is.. one doesn't have a choice. Why ? Because God would have already made the choice. Hence the definition of predestination..

    Missy
     
  13. Ruhama

    Ruhama 25 'הושע ב

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    Well I take it to mean either predestined in the sense that once you choose life your intended destiny will come true, OR, like pharaoh, that God appoints people to certain roles foreknowing that they will act a certain way.

    Pharaoh would not have let the Hebrews go, and God merely strengthened his resolve on it. In that way it was sort of a predestination. Likewise Paul also had it in him to act a certain way. God, recognizing this, chose him and appointed him to be his ambassador.

    I think we all have roles, to which God calls us. If we are ones who will listen, he gives us a destiny in line with his will (he foreknows us, then predestines us).

    I dunno if that makes sense, that's how I see it.

    ok, reaaaally late, I gotta go now.
     
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