Dismiss Notice

Welcome to Christian Forums, a friendly forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
  • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
  • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting after you have posted 20 posts and have received 5 likes.
  • Access to private conversations with other members.

We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Messiah resurrected on Sabbath & the early church met on Sabbath

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by ananda, Feb 5, 2013.

  1. Mikeb85

    Mikeb85 Guest

    To add to this, technology is fun, it offers insight that we otherwise wouldn't have. Like being able to compare words from the oldest Bible in existence, and being able to translate things between several ancient and modern languages.

    This thread also died fairly suddenly :(
     
  2. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

    You can review the usage of terminology starting here (there are three pages of citation, scroll down, and this link is to the first of the three pages):
    Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

    Note that specifically "the Sabbath day" is typically (but not always) "on the Sabbath day.

    Not also that the term "Sabbath" means also "week" - several verses have this usage. (For example, the Pharisee - in the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee - states he fasts twice a Sabbath, ie twice a week.)
     
  3. Standing Up

    Standing Up On and on

    Messages:
    23,904
    Likes Received:
    59
    Marital Status:
    Private
    Faith:
    Christian
    Near as I can tell there was no terminology for Monday, Tuesday, etc, but they numbered things per/from the Sabbath. Day before the sabbath, day after the sabbath, etc.

    Mk. 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, [not called Friday for example]
     
  4. Standing Up

    Standing Up On and on

    Messages:
    23,904
    Likes Received:
    59
    Marital Status:
    Private
    Faith:
    Christian
    No one budged ^_^
     
  5. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist & Gnostic Christian

    Messages:
    9,079
    Likes Received:
    124
    Faith:
    Other-Church
    Thank you, yes I am aware of Strong's definitions for the word, and it is my contention in this post that such definitions are incorrect.

    I've addressed that previously in this thread, and yes sometimes it can refer to the week in combination with other Greek words, but not in the case of "mia ton sabbaton".
     
  6. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

    Note that Friday = preparation/paraskeui a term meaning both preparation (in general) and also used as a day name.

    I do not know the ancient day names offhand, but your understanding is reflected in the Modern Greek day-names (which are unlike the Ancient Greek day names).
     
  7. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

    I do not find that phrase (mia ton sabbaton) in the source I linked, but "mia sabbaton" which also is used in several of the verses where "sabbath/s" means "week"; see: Matt. 28:1, Mark 16:2 and 16:9, Luke 18:2 and 24:1, John 20:1 and 20:19, Acts 20:7, Cor. 16:2.
    The phrase in the Textus Receptus is 'mia twn sabbaton', but again compare with other verses where "week" is meant.

    Contrast with the other verses where the day of the sabbath is meant.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2013
  8. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist & Gnostic Christian

    Messages:
    9,079
    Likes Received:
    124
    Faith:
    Other-Church
    Yes, I addressed many of those verses in the first post, and it is my contention that the translators incorrectly translated it "week".
     
  9. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

    Is it your position then that "sabbath" in the NT always means the day of the sabbath ?
     
  10. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist & Gnostic Christian

    Messages:
    9,079
    Likes Received:
    124
    Faith:
    Other-Church
    On its own, yes - "sabbath" means "sabbath".
     
  11. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

    So the pharisee fasts twice a day on the sabbath ? (Luke 18:2)

    Here is the Perseus entry for the construction:

    Σάββατον 1
    1.the Hebrew sabbath, i. e. rest, NTest.; also in pl. of the single day, heterocl. dat. pl. σάββασι (as if from σάββας), id=NTest.
    2.a period of seven days, a week, μία τῶν σαββάτων the first day of the week, id=NTest.

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, Σάββατον
     
  12. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist & Gnostic Christian

    Messages:
    9,079
    Likes Received:
    124
    Faith:
    Other-Church
    The "dis tou sabbatou (singular)" in Lk 18:12 does mean week in the sense that the Pharisee fasted twice every Sabbath period of seven days.

    Liddell's offers no justification for re-interpreting "mia ton sabbaton/one of the sabbaths" to "first day of the week". As you can see, it offered no external proof that "mia ton sabbaton" was used in this way from any ancient Greek manuscripts.

    Wouldn't you question things if you opened your dictionary and saw that, under the entry for "apple", you saw a definition of "orange"? With no justification or support, except its own assertion that "that's just the way it is"?
     
  13. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

    Translators do 'miss' things (such as Semiticisms, vernacular usage, etc.)

    First of the week would require ordinal terminology (like protos); mia is a/one. On the other hand, a part of a thing standing for the whole it is part of (as sabbath for a day or period from that day to another of that day not inclusive) is hardly "apples and oranges" but is a linguistic/rhetorical device amply in evidence.

    The use of the genitive case for sabbath (should be translated 'sabbath's' it seems) would be consistent with a part standing for the whole; as the week is ordered by the existence of the Sabbath, the days between one Sabbath (inclusive) and the next would be the period of time ordered by/in reference to/belonging to the Sabbath. This usage is clearly not a case of "apples and oranges".

    What is the (contemporary to the time of Christ) Hebrew term for "week" ?

    I do not find a term for the concept "week" otherwise in the NT; perhaps I have missed something. Do you find a term for the conceptual equivalent of "week" in the NT ?

    In the instance of the Pharisee in Luke, Sabbath here is also in the genitive case (ie would be "Sabbath's).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2013
  14. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist & Gnostic Christian

    Messages:
    9,079
    Likes Received:
    124
    Faith:
    Other-Church
    From my OP: sabbaton ("Sabbaths") is used, instead of ἑβδομάδας/ebedomas (Septuagint's word for "week", cf. Lev 23:15, Deu 16:9, etc.). The LXX uses h/ebdomadas to refer to "seven-day week" - Lev 23:15, Deu 16:9, etc, and by all indications, Messiah and the apostles were familiar with the LXX, and the NT writers quoted from it. Therefore it is reasonable to suggest that they would have used the word "h/ebdomadas" instead of "sabbaton" to clearly refer to the "seven-day week", and to avoid the ambiguity introduced by using a word which would likely make the reader think "Sabbath" instead.
     
  15. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

    That is not a citation from the NT.

    These questions remain unanswered:
    1. what was the contemporary Hebrew term for the concept "week" ?
    2. what is the term used for the concept "week" in the NT ?
     
  16. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist & Gnostic Christian

    Messages:
    9,079
    Likes Received:
    124
    Faith:
    Other-Church
    My citation satisfies my requirements. The NT writers quoted extensively from the LXX, and the LXX has a specific word for "week". The NT writers were not referring to the "week", so they did not use that word.

    The NT writers cleared used a made-up Greek word "sabbaton" which was used nowhere outside of the Greek-speaking Jews. It was clearly in reference to "Sabbath"; I do not believe the NT writers would have used this word to cause confusion by referring to "week" instead, when there was another perfectly good, clear, word to use.
     
  17. Mikeb85

    Mikeb85 Guest

    &#1513;&#1489;&#1514; <- Sabbath
    &#1513;&#1489;&#1493;&#1506; <- Week

    Same root word.

    Check it out yourself in a Hebrew translator. Same root, different meanings. In the LXX in certain parts it was translated into the Greek equivalent, in the NT it was transliterated from Hebrew. Hence the different forms of the word, and different meanings.
     
  18. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist & Gnostic Christian

    Messages:
    9,079
    Likes Received:
    124
    Faith:
    Other-Church
    "Same root word" does not equal "same word".

    Yes, they're related, but because the 7-day week was significant only in reference to the Sabbath. Note that there are no Biblical names for the other days of the week.
     
  19. Mikeb85

    Mikeb85 Guest

    Well we already showed that in the NT, instances which refer to Sabbath are different than the instances which refer to first day of the week. It's the same difference as in the Hebrew, because it was transliterated.

    You're refusing to see what's in front of all our eyes...
     
  20. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist & Gnostic Christian

    Messages:
    9,079
    Likes Received:
    124
    Faith:
    Other-Church
    And I've explained, one must understand the nature of inflected languages; this is the basis for the variations in the endings. I just disagree with your conclusions that they point to completely different meanings.
     
Loading...