Messiah resurrected on Sabbath & the early church met on Sabbath

[zeke25]

JDMiowa,

Your first concern was when did the women buy the spices. Your answer is found in Luke 23:54 KJV, "And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on." Yahoshua died on the preparation day, which is the day before Passover. So, the women bought the spices that day. It would be reasonable to assume that they bought the spices after He died. The sabbath that drew on was the single day of Passover. Luke 23:55 KJV, "And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid." Then that night, when Joseph and Nicodemus took Him down and placed Him in the sepulchre, the women came and observed where His body was. Luke 23:56 KJV, "And they returned, and prepared spices, and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment." Then the women went home and prepared the spices. They may have prepared them Thursday night or anytime Friday, possibly both days. Then the Saturday sabbath arrived and they rested according to the commandment.

Mark 16:1 KJV, "And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him." When the women bought these spices is not a mystery. Luke 23:54 already told us that they bought them on the preparation day before Passover, therefore, they bought them on Thursday. When the sabbath (Saturday, the first day of the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) was passing, they came to the sepulchre.

 

[zeke25]

The quick

 

[Mikeb85]

Summary
Messiah died on Tuesday, and rose three full days and three full nights later on a Friday evening. The early believers gathered and worshipped on Friday evening after sunset or on Saturday morning - the Sabbath. Mainstream translators falsely changed "one of the Sabbaths" into "first [day] of the week aka Sunday".

This is just silly.

First of all, yes, early believers gathered on the Sabbath, and on the first day of the week to celebrate the Resurrection. This idea that it's one or the other is silly.

Second, Christ rested on the Sabbath. There is symbolic significance to this which, if you were actually Jewish, you might understand. And He rose again on the first day of the week signifying the first day of creation, and the first day of a new creation.

Third, to this day, Orthodox Christians still have church services, and gather, on Saturday (aka. the Sabbath). I'm going to Vespers this Friday night (and every Friday evening during Lent). And BTW, Vespers is done at Sunset, and marks the start of the next day (as is the Jewish custom).

And BTW, there is special significance to services that occur on Saturday (since it is the Sabbath), but it doesn't replace Sunday worship (nor vice versa). It's not one or the other....

 

[ananda]

This is just silly.

First of all, yes, early believers gathered on the Sabbath, and on the first day of the week to celebrate the Resurrection. This idea that it's one or the other is silly.

Second, Christ rested on the Sabbath. There is symbolic significance to this which, if you were actually Jewish, you might understand. And He rose again on the first day of the week signifying the first day of creation, and the first day of a new creation.

Third, to this day, Orthodox Christians still have church services, and gather, on Saturday (aka. the Sabbath). I'm going to Vespers this Friday night (and every Friday evening during Lent). And BTW, Vespers is done at Sunset, and marks the start of the next day (as is the Jewish custom).

And BTW, there is special significance to services that occur on Saturday (since it is the Sabbath), but it doesn't replace Sunday worship (nor vice versa). It's not one or the other....

What is silly? What part of my exegesis of the Greek text is silly?

It appears that you are imposing your beliefs on the text, instead of letting the texts guide your beliefs.

This is exactly the premise of my argument. The mainstream christian church has obscured the Greek texts in their mainstream translations because of its traditions.

 

[Mikeb85]

This is exactly the premise of my argument. The mainstream christian church has obscured the Greek texts in their mainstream translations because of its traditions.

And what of my church? Where millions of it's members are native (fluent) speakers, and one of the local churches I occasionally attend (Greek Orthodox) still reads directly from the original Greek? Are they obscuring the meaning?

Or maybe you're just missing out on something, context perhaps. Yes, the mainstream American protestant churches have missed out on something, I've heard some of them say that Sunday is the Sabbath (it isn't). But traditional churches, closer to the Greek than anyone, still celebrate the resurrection on the first day of the week, and worship every day of the week, including the Sabbath...

 

[ananda]

And what of my church? Where millions of it's members are native (fluent) speakers, and one of the local churches I occasionally attend (Greek Orthodox) still reads directly from the original Greek? Are they obscuring the meaning?

Or maybe you're just missing out on something, context perhaps. Yes, the mainstream American protestant churches have missed out on something, I've heard some of them say that Sunday is the Sabbath (it isn't). But traditional churches, closer to the Greek than anyone, still celebrate the resurrection on the first day of the week, and worship every day of the week, including the Sabbath...

I cannot speak for you or your church or why your church interprets μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων as "first day of the week". However, if you can read the original Greek, I welcome your input on where I misread and misinterpreted the Greek from my first post:

(e.g. ""Ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων (mia ton Sabbaton) συνηγμένων τῶν μαθητῶν τοῦ κλάσαι ἄρτον ..." - "Now on the one of the Sabbaths, having gathered together we break bread ..." (Acts 20:7))

 

[Mikeb85]

I cannot speak for you or your church or why your church interprets μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων as "first day of the week". However, if you can read the original Greek, I welcome your input on where I misread and misinterpreted the Greek from my first post:

(e.g. ""Ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων (mia ton Sabbaton) συνηγμένων τῶν μαθητῶν τοῦ κλάσαι ἄρτον ..." - "Now on the one of the Sabbaths, having gathered together we break bread ..." (Acts 20:7))

I'm not personally fluent in Greek, and seeing how Lent just started I'm not going to bother anyone at Church, but take a look at the Codex Sinaiticus... Codex Sinaiticus - Home

It's the oldest Bible in the world, found at St Catherine's Monastery at Mount Sinai, and you can look through the actual pages, with translations on some. If you navigate to the various references to the sabbath in the Old Testament (Septuagint), and the passage in question in Acts 20:7, you'll see that they are different expressions. You'll also see the difference between references to the Saturday sabbath in the New Testament, and the passage in Acts 20:7

It's a pain to take screenshots, crop them, etc.., so I invite you to take a look yourself.

 

[ananda]

I'm not personally fluent in Greek, and seeing how Lent just started I'm not going to bother anyone at Church, but take a look at the Codex Sinaiticus... Codex Sinaiticus - Home

It's the oldest Bible in the world, found at St Catherine's Monastery at Mount Sinai, and you can look through the actual pages, with translations on some. If you navigate to the various references to the sabbath in the Old Testament (Septuagint), and the passage in question in Acts 20:7, you'll see that they are different expressions. You'll also see the difference between references to the Saturday sabbath in the New Testament, and the passage in Acts 20:7

It's a pain to take screenshots, crop them, etc.., so I invite you to take a look yourself.

Thank you. Yes, I confirmed that the Codex Sinaticus from the link you provided also shows "mia ton sabbaton" for Acts 20:7.

 

[Mikeb85]

Thank you. Yes, I confirmed that the Codex Sinaticus from the link you provided also shows "mia ton sabbaton" for Acts 20:7.

Here, 2 pictures. The first from Luke 13:10, the second from Acts 20:7

 

[ananda]

Here, 2 pictures. The first from Luke 13:10, the second from Acts 20:7

Yes, both refers to the Sabbath.

 

[Mikeb85]

Yes, both refers to the Sabbath.

Why the different forms then, if they refer to the same thing?

 

[ananda]

Why the different forms then, if they refer to the same thing?

"sabba-sin" found in Lk 13:10 is in the dative case, whereas "sabba-ton" found in Acts 20:7 is in the genitive case, but they both refer to "sabbath".

The reason they look different is because Greek is an inflected language: endings change a base stem to show its role in the rest of the sentence. Here's an example in English as a rough equivalent: e.g. "sabbath" vs "sabbaths" - the "s" changes it a little, and both words might look different to one who wasn't familiar with English, but the base stem meanings remain the same.

 

[zeke37]

Summary
Messiah died on Tuesday, and rose three full days and three full nights later on a Friday evening. The early believers gathered and worshipped on Friday evening after sunset or on Saturday morning - the Sabbath. Mainstream translators falsely changed "one of the Sabbaths" into "first [day] of the week aka Sunday".

nope....
He died on a Wed afternoon.
God caused it to go dark then, ushering in the Passover a few hours early.
three days and three nights later, brings us to the end of the Sabbath Sat night.
He was already gone from the grave Sunday morning.

He was in the grave from the beginning of the High Sabbath
to the end of the weekly Sabbath...

Wed dusk, till Sat dusk. three days and nights.

Sunday or Sabbath?
"Ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων (mia ton Sabbaton) συνηγμένων τῶν μαθητῶν τοῦ κλάσαι ἄρτον ..." - "Now on the one of the Sabbaths, having gathered together we break bread ..." (Acts 20:7)

How & why did mia ton sabbaton, literally translated "one of the Sabbaths", turn into "on the first day of the week aka Sunday" (the reading found in most mainstream translations)?! In the Greek, we find:

1. mia ("one"), not protos ("first");
2. hemera ("day") is not found in this verse (compare Mk 14:12 "prote/first hemera/day ton azymon/of unleavened bread");
3. sabbaton ("Sabbaths") is used, instead of ἑβδομάδας/ebedomas (Septuagint's word for "week", cf. Lev 23:15, Deu 16:9, etc.). The LXX uses h/ebdomadas to refer to "seven-day week" - Lev 23:15, Deu 16:9, etc, and by all indications, Messiah and the apostles were familiar with the LXX.Therefore it is reasonable to suggest that they would have used the word "h/ebdomadas" instead of "sabbaton" to clearly refer to the "seven-day week", and to avoid the ambiguity introduced by using a word which would likely make the reader think "Sabbath" instead.
​

It is extremely forced to interpolate "day" into the translated phrase, to wrest "mia"'s meaning from "one" to "first", to change the meaning of the plural "Sabbaton" - ("Sabbaths") into the singular word "week". Also, to my knowledge, nowhere else outside of the NT is "mia ton sabbaton" found translated "first day of the week aka Sunday".

"Sabbaton" - to my knowledge - is always translated "Sabbath" in the NT, except when it's paired with "mia ton"!? This hints to me of theological bias among translators who imposes the meaning on the Greek, to preserve the church's traditions regarding Sunday. I suggest that most mainstream translators translated the phrase as "first day of the week aka Sunday" because many centuries of church tradition demands it. Few would dare to rock the big boat called Christianity in such a dramatic way, and fewer would willingly place their personal academic careers in danger, in releasing a translation significantly different than most others and thus forcing billions to reexamine their fundamental beliefs about Sunday vs. the Sabbath. Lastly, I'm sure they also have translation sales and profits to think about, and corporate sponsors to answer to.

Finally, Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2; Lk 24:1; Jn 20:1; Jn 20:19; Act 20:7 should all read "one of the Sabbaths" - not "first day of the week aka Sunday"!

Proposed Passion Week Timeline:
Here's my proposal for a revised timeline if the various passion accounts are read with the phraseology "one of the Sabbaths" instead of "on the first day of the week":

Messiah died on the first day (beginning) of the High Passover Sabbath (15 Aviv; Mar 27, 31ad/Tuesday) near sunset (Mt 27:66-28:1a: "they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch; now it was the evening of the sabbath"). After He died on the cross, on late Mar 27th (still on the Passover Sabbath, 15 Aviv), Joseph of Arimathaea placed His body in the tomb (Lk 23:51-56), and likely the Marys and Salome witnessed this. The Marys and Salome then rested, and immediately after the High Passover Sabbath was over, they went and purchased spices (Mk 16:1) to anoint Messiah's body. They had two days & nights to prepare the spices into an ointment before the weekly Sabbath (Lk 23:54-56). Thus Messiah rose exactly three full days and three full nights after His death on the cross, on the sunset of Mar 30, 31 a.d., Friday - 18 Aviv (which marked the beginning of the weekly Sabbath, the prote/first Sabbath counting to Shavuot (Mk 16:9)). The women, early on Mar 31, Saturday (before the sun rose, still on the weekly Sabbath, 18 Aviv; Mt 28:1b: ""As it began to dawn on one of the Sabbaths ...", Jn 20:1, Mk 16:2) went to the tomb intending to anoint Messiah's body, but they saw the angel and the empty tomb. They reported the missing body to the other disciples, and finally the resurrected Messiah appeared to the assembled disciples near the end of the weekly Sabbath (Jn 20:19), still on Saturday.

Also, Lev 6:9 states that the sacrifice shall burn 1. all night into 2. all morning. Note the order: all night first, then morning. My proposal shows precisely this & in that precise order!: Messiah was sacrified over the course of three full nights and days: 15 Aviv all night & morning, 16 Aviv all night & morning, and 17 Aviv all night & morning!

Finally, Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three full days and nights; to my knowledge there is not indicated fractions of a day. Also, by Messiah's own recorded testimony, "Are there not twelve hours in the day?" Jn 11:9. My theory includes 72 hours - three full days, and three full nights, and Messiah's testimony eliminates the possibility of inclusive counting of days. By Messiah's own testimony, He would be raised in three days and nights. Messiah proclaimed this to the disciples, priests, Pharisees, etc. I believe He would not have given the skeptic Pharisees and priests the least bit of wiggle room to claim that He failed to fulfill His own prediction.

I suggest the following study, if you want to reconcile it all.
He died on a Wed afternoon, and rose sometime after the Sabbath ended on Sat night,
three days and three nights later.

The Three Days and Three Nights of Matt. 12:40 - Appendix to the Companion Bible
The Third Day - Appendix to the Companion Bible
Six Days Before the Passover (John 12:1) - Appendix to the Companion Bible
The Three Suppers. - Appendix to the Companion Bible

 

[annier]

Mikeb85

You're wasting your time talking to netzarim. He engages is paralogism to the max. I've already explained in my recent posts that the wording of "one of the sabbaths" or "at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths" as it is written in Matthew 28:1 it is talking about Sunday. These Jews were extremely focused on the counting of seven complete weeks to Shavuot. They mention it not infrequently. In Matthew 28:1 it was the first day of the first week of the count of seven weeks to Shavuot. In Acts 20:7 it says "one of the sabbaths", but according to my count it was actually the beginning of the 4th week on the count to Shavuot. As I've said before, the sabbath is his god, and he will defend it to his own permanent death, unless he repents and becomes saved.

What he said
the first day of the weeks (which were seven weeks unto pentcost)

 

[Mikeb85]

You know, it's interesting when you enter week and sabbath into an English-Hebrew translator:
&#1513;&#1489;&#1514; <- Sabbath
&#1513;&#1489;&#1493;&#1506; <- Week

Same root word, so the same root in Biblical Greek (in which these words are very obviously transliterated, and not translated). And keep in mind Hebrew is read from right to left...

 

[annier]

You know, it's interesting when you enter week and sabbath into an English-Hebrew translator:
&#1513;&#1489;&#1514; <- Sabbath
&#1513;&#1489;&#1493;&#1506; <- Week

Same root word, so the same root in Biblical Greek (which is very obviously transliterated, and not translated). And keep in mind Hebrew is read from right to left...

Another interesting thing. This particular day was in dispute among the three most influential sects of Judaism, long before Christ was born. They all actually disputed with each other over this day being the day AFTER a FESTIVAL SABBATH (any day in the year, by date), or A WEEKLY SABBATH (any Sunday which happen to fall within the week of unleavened bread). When this is taken into account, the sense of "strife" over Sabbaths and feasts days can have an additional context to it. At the very least a context to consider as Christ reconciling all things in himself. It does not matter which "sect" was doing what. As long as they kept them in honor of Christ and what he accomplished in those days..

 

[zeke37]

Standing Up said: "Look up quartodeciman. The conflict centered on whether Christ died on the 14th or the 15th. Never have I come across anyone from early tradition that thought He died on the 13th."

I am not the least impressed by quartodeciman or any other writings of men. I have my Bible and I can live my life by it. I cannot say the same for any other documents. Besides, if Wikipedia is even close to correct, the quartodeciman is chocked full of errors. The Bible teaches that the crucifixion was on Thursday and that Thursday was Abib 13. But you have me repeating myself. You cannot possible understand the proper sequence of events as long as you hate truth and refuse to submit to the Biblical teaching of a sunrise day start. Have you bothered to even pray about the correct answer? Have you heard from the Holy Ghost? No, it is obvious that you have not. Our conversation is finished, unless you have any substantive reason to give for me to continue. There are other children to feed who are hungry and teachable.

hi....nice name...pretty close.
mine stands for Ezekiel37

I've been around the block with Standing Up about this...

however, it seems you are wrong too.

instead of stating why over and over again,
I invite you to read the following appendii,
as they SHOULD straiten it out for you.

so I suggest the following study, if you want to reconcile it all.

He died on a Wed afternoon, (as the Passover Sabbath began)
and rose sometime after the weekly Sabbath ended on Sat night,
precisely three days and three nights later.

if you can find an error in these appendii, please point it out
because I can't.


The Three Days and Three Nights of Matt. 12:40 - Appendix to the Companion Bible
The Third Day - Appendix to the Companion Bible
Six Days Before the Passover (John 12:1) - Appendix to the Companion Bible
The Three Suppers. - Appendix to the Companion Bible

 

[zeke37]

To Standing Up, You must have me confused with someone else's post. I never said anything about a Wednesday crucifixion.

that was me...close names,. hence the confusion on his part.

 

[zeke37]

zeke25,
StandingUp is right about a bunch of things tho.

-even is evening, sunset. not afternoon
-the Hebrew day changed at sunset, to the next day's calendar date.
-and today's jews do not follow the same biblical calendar that we get from reading scripture.

I may have more to learn about the biblical calendar compared to ours
but facts are facts, as stated in the appendix' I provided

the only math that satisfies everything, has to include at least 72 hours in the grave.
if He was already risen by Sunday morning, meaning Sat night, then simply do the math.
subtract 3 days and nights.
it will bring you back to Wednesday

 

[Standing Up]

that was me...close names,. hence the confusion on his part.

Glad that got settled