McCain's wife, daughter back gay marriage movement

[Saving Hawaii]

God says homosexuality is an abomination. I refuse to accept the normalization of this behavior.

Hate the sin- not the sinner.

This debate that's taken place in our society over the past few years over homosexuality has changed how I look at a number of things. Five years ago, I would have told you that civil unions are an adequate institution for homosexuals. That simply for the sake of political expediency, we might as well go with civil unions for homosexuals and make marriage a heterosexual institution. When you say "Hate the sin, not the sinner" I would have agreed with you.

I can't anymore.

This afternoon, I watched this video which was originally posted here by Dracil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnTwrnKb61Q&feature=player_embedded

I then proceeded to read San Diego Mayor Jerry Sander's testimony in this case. The entirety of it. The direct, the cross, and the re-direct. You can read the whole thing yourself here (it starts on page 9 and ends on page 65). In fact, I would recommend reading it. Lots of pages, but it's in a large font. It doesn't take that long.

...

A good friend of mine is gay. Aside from his brothers, my dad's best friend who I've known since I was a little kid is gay. I can't look them in the eyes and tell them that God created them with a biological requirement to commit sin; that the only way they can live a moral life is to live their life lying to themselves and everyone around them. I cannot and will not do that. I can't tell them that "separate but equal" is adequate; that we will treat them differently from everyone else because we don't like their sexual orientation. I cannot and will not do that.

I'm having trouble articulating myself.

Thank you Dracil, for posting the video of Jerry Sanders. It's made me think about this almost the entire day.

 

[a_nony_mous]

No matter how much you try, you can never win the battle against nature.
Even if you don't believe in God, natural sense ought to enable you to understand that homosexuality is abnormal, unproductive and an act which negates all natural and spiritual balance.

Then how come homosexuality occurs in plenty of different animal species, and how come plenty of homosexuals live completely productive lives? Also, just because something is abnormal doesn't mean that it's bad or wrong.

Once you recognize this as a problem, the solution will automatically come. Don't forget, these homosexual could not have been given birth to, had their fore-parents adopted homosexuality as a means of life.

And what exactly would that solution be? And so what if homosexuals couldn't be given birth to? That doesn't mean that being homosexual is wrong, since procreation is most certainly not the only purpose of life.

 

[BlackAndy]

Where did I say you thought adultery was fine? I said you are not putting them to death like God decreed. You are picking and choosing. Learn to read and come at me with proper arguments. Until then, don't embarrass yourself.

Do I call for the execution of homosexuals? Never have. Quote me on that if you can. You say I'm picking and choosing to treat adultery and homosexuality differently- you cannot find one post I have made to support that claim.

 

[BlackAndy]

Nice try, but you used OT-specific wording earlier. So we shall talk about your picking and choosing from the OT first. If we ever get to the NT, you'll need to explain why we aren't passing the same laws for all the other common stuff that homosexuality is grouped with.

Only because the basis of the New Testament condemnation lies in the Old Testament. Read Acts and you will understand more about the Old Testament Laws that were carried over to become New Testament laws. If you have a basic understanding of the Bible and Christian theology then you understand why many of the Old Testament laws are no longer applicable... but some remain.
Sexual immorality, to include homosexuality and adultery, are condemned in the New Testament as well as the Old, where the your silly argument about linens and shellfish or whatever is not.

 

[Smidlee]

IF Cindy McCain agree with her father it would never made news. But it's the fact that she went the opposite direction got her attention. Now I don't her heart but I know in my family if I were in office like McCain there would be a few who would probably oppose my views just so they could get some attention even though they would care less either way on the matter.

 

[BlackAndy]

Except there's this niggling little detail of homosexuality and asexuality existing in nature and actually helping their species by having some of the population taking care of otherwise neglected young.

If procreation was a requirement for marriage we wouldn't allow infertile people to marry. We wouldn't even allow people the choice of not having kids once married.

My dog is always trying to hump my cat. I've seen animals try to mount people on farms. Happens all the time in nature. There are all kinds of abnormal behaviors that happen naturally in nature. It doesn't mean it should be normalized.

 

[a_nony_mous]

My dog is always trying to hump my cat. I've seen animals try to mount people on farms. Happens all the time in nature. There are all kinds of abnormal behaviors that happen naturally in nature. It doesn't mean it should be normalized.

You do realize that humans are animals, don't you? And since when is homosexuality an abnormal behavior?

 

[BlackAndy]

You do realize that humans are animals, don't you? And since when is homosexuality an abnormal behavior?

In nature, animals eat their young.
I tend to hold humanity to a much higher standard than the average animal.

 

[a_nony_mous]

In nature, animals eat their young.
I tend to hold humanity to a much higher standard than the average animal.

So you're denying the proven fact that humans are animals? Also, animals don't fight wars with one another, yet humans do. Doesn't that make us worse than animals in a way?

 

[AutomaticJack]

A gay man, his partner, and their adopted child move next door to you. They mow the lawn. They play basketball with their kid. They wash the car in the driveway. They are not having hedonistic orgies in the back yard, or dancing up and down the street in shiny thongs.

How does this family harm you?

Since we have separation of church and state in this country, what is your legal rationale for denying gays marriage rights?

Homosexuality exists in nature. It is demonstrably not a choice. But, if you're going to claim that homosexuality is a choice, then you will have to concoct a motive for someone in middle or high school to make a life-defining choice that will make them an outcast and second class citizen. I'm pretty creative, but I can't figure out a reason why a teenager would make a choice that makes being a teenager EVEN HARDER than it already is. So why would anyone do that?

Of course, the answer is no one would. And that bigotry and fear are the only reasons any of you oppose gay marriage.

Still haven't managed to list one way that gay marriage harms anyone. And the government not respecting your religious beliefs doesn't count, because the government is not supposed to respect people's religion. It is supposed to ignore people's religion.

Until you can find a way gay marriage harms you, you have no case. The end.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Nice. NO H8 on their faces. As if not agreeing with homosexuality or the right to normalize the behavior is hateful...
Either you are for the gays or you are HATEFUL. Nice.

Color me hateful.

You don’t want a minority to have the same rights you enjoy just because they are a minority.

If you were promoting the same discrimination based on skin color it would be called hateful…so why is what you are engaging is “loving” and not hateful?

 

[BigBadWlf]

debatable.

No one has successfully debated it so …no not debatable

I can post any number of bizarre heterosexual activities such a mardi gras and reality television and divorce court….would that be a representation of your marriage?

Racists misrepresent non-whites as well to try to justify their personal prejudices just as you are trying to do here…does this make racism acceptable?

God says homosexuality is an abomination. I refuse to accept the normalization of this behavior.

Hate is hate no matter if it is directed against gays or people with dark skin and it remains hate no matter how one use to bible to defend their hatred

Hate the sin- not the sinner.

Yet one cannot tell the difference between those “hating the sin” and those “hating the sinner”

 

[BigBadWlf]

No - it's a moral concern, in the same way adultery being referenced in those same passages is a moral concern, or stealing, or murder is a moral concern (and I'm talking about the act here - not existence) The moral hasn’t changed, however the OT punishment prescribed HAS been rendered redundant via God’s forgiveness of sin through Jesus.

Wearing tassels on your cloak isn’t a moral concern – it’s about setting Israel apart from the surrounding gentiles. In a similar vein, sacrificing a ram at the temple isn’t a moral concern – it’s about OT Israel atoning for sin without Jesus.

We don’t need to have burnt offerings anymore because of what Jesus did for us on the cross. We don’t need to be set apart via our appearance or reminded of God’s covenant with Abraham anymore (tassels, cloaks from one thread etc) because God has opened his salvation to gentiles as well as jews (signified when the temple curtain tore in two).

Yet these laws are all jumbled together with no form of coding or divisions among them. So in the end you are picking and choosing what OT laws to follow and what to ignore you simply are going to the trouble of labeling those you want to inflict on others as “moral” laws and separating you don’t wish to follow and claiming they only applied to the Israelites.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Sexual immorality - to include adultery and homosexuality- is condemned in the New Testament.

Not by any literal interpretation

 

[BigBadWlf]

A gay man, his partner, and their adopted child move next door to you. They mow the lawn. They play basketball with their kid. They wash the car in the driveway. They are not having hedonistic orgies in the back yard, or dancing up and down the street in shiny thongs.

How does this family harm you?

Since we have separation of church and state in this country, what is your legal rationale for denying gays marriage rights?

Homosexuality exists in nature. It is demonstrably not a choice. But, if you're going to claim that homosexuality is a choice, then you will have to concoct a motive for someone in middle or high school to make a life-defining choice that will make them an outcast and second class citizen. I'm pretty creative, but I can't figure out a reason why a teenager would make a choice that makes being a teenager EVEN HARDER than it already is. So why would anyone do that?

Of course, the answer is no one would. And that bigotry and fear are the only reasons any of you oppose gay marriage.

Still haven't managed to list one way that gay marriage harms anyone. And the government not respecting your religious beliefs doesn't count, because the government is not supposed to respect people's religion. It is supposed to ignore people's religion.

Until you can find a way gay marriage harms you, you have no case. The end.

Nice post.

Welcome to the forums

 

[Chyke4real]

A gay man, his partner, and their adopted child move next door to you.

What moral rights do gay people have to adopt children. You can't just eat your cake and have it back. If Gay people can argue that marriage ain't all about procreation, then why do they(gay) seek to adopt children?
This whole thing sounds so disgusting, issues that common sense can never accept.
As long as God lives and as long as they are still right thinking men and women in existence, the sanctity of marriage will be preserved.
May God protect all children of the world from the corrupt influence of few misguided people.

 

[a_nony_mous]

What moral rights do gay people have to adopt children. You can't just eat your cake and have it back. If Gay people can argue that marriage ain't all about procreation, then why do they(gay) seek to adopt children?

Since when does adopting children within a marriage have anything to do with procreating within a marriage? Seems like you don't quite understand what the word "procreate" means.

This whole thing sounds so disgusting, issues that common sense can never accept.
As long as God lives and as long as they are still right thinking men and women in existence, the sanctity of marriage will be preserved.
May God protect all children of the world from the corrupt influence of few misguided people.

You do realize that those who were against interracial marriage used those same arguments, don't you?

 

[Chyke4real]

Train a child in the way he should go and when he grows, he will not depart from it.
The fault of most children, is the failure of most parents.

 

[a_nony_mous]

Train a child in the way he should go and when he grows, he will not depart from it.
The fault of most children, is the failure of most parents.

You really think that parents cause their children to be gay? If so, then how come it's possible for gay people to have grown up in a Fundamentalist Christian family?

In fact, I suggest you read a book entitled Prayers for Bobby, which is the true story of a gay male who grew up in a Fundamentalist Christian family, and who ended up killing himself since he hated himself so incredibly much for being gay.

 

[BigBadWlf]

What moral rights do gay people have to adopt children.

The same moral rights as any opposite sexed couple.

I have a friend who is a social worker for an adoption agency and she indicates that gay and lesbian couples are a godsend to her and unwanted children. They provide safe happy and loving homes to children that opposite gendered couples find less desirable…that is older children, children of mixed race, and special needs children

You can't just eat your cake and have it back. If Gay people can argue that marriage ain't all about procreation, then why do they(gay) seek to adopt children?

The reasons are the same as to why do infertile heterosexuals seek to adopt children

This whole thing sounds so disgusting, issues that common sense can never accept.

Common sense rejects hatred and bigotry

As long as God lives and as long as they are still right thinking men and women in existence, the sanctity of marriage will be preserved.

And we can expect bans on interracial marriage to be back in effect soon

May God protect all children of the world from the corrupt influence of few misguided people.

That is why I say a prayer of thanks when ever some lucky chi8ld is adopted whether it is by heterosexual parents or homosexual parents. I am gladdened that the hatred of a few did not stop them from joining their families.