Maybe Moses was invented by the Rabbis ?

[LoricaLady]

You mean there is not a Buddhist, not a Jew, not a Muslim, not an Atheist or agnostic in the world etc that are wise?

Someone who is sold out to Buddhism, or Judaism w/o Messiah, or to Islam or an atheist or an agnostic may have wisdom in certain worldly ways. I have certainly seen many people like that. Jews, where they are getting their wisdom from the Tankh have the benefit of some Scriptural, not just worldly, wisdom.

But anyone who rejects Messiah in the end has ultimately not lived a wise life. Not in spiritual ways, not in the ways that lead to eternal life where worldly wisdom counts for nothing.

Messiah was not "ecumenical." Neither am I. He said that the path to eternal life was narrow and constricted and that few find it. The wise by HIS wisdom, not the worldly wise, find it.

Many people get on these forums and seem as with the title of the string, to be saying, "Hath YHWH really said...?" I think He has said indeed, in the OT and the Renewed Covenant, and will never consider anyone to be wise who rejects what I feel are the truths there, but instead makes accusations of "lies" and "a myth." If you think such accusations as the path to wisdom and eternal life, that's between you and your Creator, however.

 

[yonah_mishael]

yonah For the 4th time, I feel it would be fruitless to exchange posts with someone who accuses the book of Acts as being "lies" and "a myth." I've done my research on the Bible and you aren't my authority on that anymore than Paul, that is pseudo Paul, is my deity. If you keep posting to me I will simply repaste this post. I haven't even read your last one.

Ice cream is a dairy product.

 

[Desert Rose]

Ice cream is a dairy product.

easy for you to giggle. I have that kind of ignorance and selfglorification on our 'team'; really hard to explain why anyone should be one of us when those folks roam free amongst us, joyfully

 

[Job8]

Amen. That's exactly what certain Gentiles do to Judaism and Torah. The Jews make one or two mistakes and hey, commence the kindling.

It's a good thing you said "certain Gentiles", and those "certain Gentiles" include all the theological liberals as well as all those Christians who assume that the Church has replaced Israel, thereby disregarding all the prophecies pertaining to redeemed and restored Israel.

At the same time, there are many conservative Christians who believe without the shadow of a doubt that every word in the Tanakh is a word of God and a word from God. And Yeshua ha Mashiach held to the absolute authority of the Hebrew Scriptures. But He also revealed the following to His apostles (Luke 24:44-48):

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.


TANAKH
Moses = Torah
Prophets = Prophets (Nebiim)
Psalms = Writings (Kethubim)

 

[ContraMundum]

"Kosher"? That is a traditions of men word. Why would you think I want to be "kosher"? I use Scripture, the Word of YHWH. "You need that no man should teach you, but the Holy Spirit will teach you."

Don't just tell me I'm not kosher, as that means nothing. Tell me what is wrong with my post, using....Scriptures....to refute anything I said, in particular.

I think you need to take a deep breath and figure out something that is a glaring hole in your understanding of God's unchanging nature.

God does not change according to His nature. Nor does His word change, but it is revealed progressively in time, applies differently to different peoples and places and is often conditional. Hence, the law of circumcision is particular for the Jewish nation as physical descendants of Abraham and is a sign of the covenant with Abraham. Therefore when the Holy Council of Jerusalem, guided by further light from the Holy Spirit ordained that Gentiles need not be circumcised or converted to Judaism to be justified righteous before God (evidenced by the heart purifying work of the Spirit) they are not over-riding the word of God, but applying it with Spirit led orthodoxy.

The claim that this was Paul's doing alone is simply ignoring the facts- as is the usual lately. Paul is applying and defending the halacha of the Council led by the Apostles.

Simply put, it's not only orthodox but the norm in history for God to add to His own Word and explain to us how it applies to us. His own commands and words are His to do with as He pleases. This does not mean that His nature changes- which is where you seem to be confused. You are confounding God's immutable nature with His prophetic revelation (written or oral) which has always been progressive and unpredictable.

You must explain to us all, based on your process why laws and other words from an eternal God who does not change have in fact been added to and even been taken away by this unchanging God Himself. For example, Noah knew nothing of the laws pertaining to Israel's moedim, and God's judgment against Nineveh was stayed by their repentance due to Jonah's preaching. Clearly God added to His own words and even stayed His own Divine judgment.

 

[ContraMundum]

Just fyi. According to Scriptures - not Jewish tradition - one's tribal heritage is determined by one's father. Timothy's mother was a Jew, but his father was a Greek, consequently he was not Jewish according to the Bible.

Not necessarily. Read Num. 27.

One can always know the mother of the child. Fathers can often be a bit of a mystery.

Paul is right again.

 

[LoricaLady]

I think you need to take a deep breath and figure out something that is a glaring hole in your understanding of God's unchanging nature.

God does not change according to His nature. Nor does His word change, but it is revealed progressively in time, applies differently to different peoples and places and is often conditional. Hence, the law of circumcision is particular for the Jewish nation as physical descendants of Abraham and is a sign of the covenant with Abraham. Therefore when the Holy Council of Jerusalem, guided by further light from the Holy Spirit ordained that Gentiles need not be circumcised or converted to Judaism to be justified righteous before God (evidenced by the heart purifying work of the Spirit) they are not over-riding the word of God, but applying it with Spirit led orthodoxy.

The claim that this was Paul's doing alone is simply ignoring the facts- as is the usual lately. Paul is applying and defending the halacha of the Council led by the Apostles.

Simply put, it's not only orthodox but the norm in history for God to add to His own Word and explain to us how it applies to us. His own commands and words are His to do with as He pleases. This does not mean that His nature changes- which is where you seem to be confused. You are confounding God's immutable nature with His prophetic revelation (written or oral) which has always been progressive and unpredictable.

You must explain to us all, based on your process why laws and other words from an eternal God who does not change have in fact been added to and even been taken away by this unchanging God Himself. For example, Noah knew nothing of the laws pertaining to Israel's moedim, and God's judgment against Nineveh was stayed by their repentance due to Jonah's preaching. Clearly God added to His own words and even stayed His own Divine judgment.

I am not going to get into Noah and Ninevah. That is a distraction from the main issue here. One thing we know. They had not heard from Moses.

Your belief that there is one set of laws for Jews and one for nonJews has already been gone over. The OT clearly states that there is one law for the native born and one for the gentile. It clearly states that gentiles who convert are to be circumcised before they partake of Passover and Passover is "for all generations."

The NT says that "There is neither Greek nor Jew." We see NONJEWS being told to refrain from blood, per Mosaic Law, in Acts 15. Do you think nonJews can bow down to false gods, murder, steal, covet, etc? I certainly hope not.

Numbers 15:29 These same instructions apply both to native-born Israelites and to the foreigners living among you.

Exodus 12:48 "If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe YHWH's Passover, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it."

(How many times are people going to ignore those Bible verses and keep saying over and over that there are different laws for the Jews and the converted gentiles? Rhetorical Q.)

Please show Bible verses, not something vague and before Moses about Noah etc., that shows Mosaic law is only for Jews. I have shown you, from the Bible, that such is the opposite of the case. If you can't give Scripture to support one set of regs for Jews, and one for converts - and you can't because there are none - then kindly quit acting like that is the case. Truly study Scripture. "Test everything."

Take a deep breath and think what is meant by "There is neither Greek nor Jew."

Don't miss out on being in Covenant with Messiah due to a little piece of flesh.

 

[ErezY]

Your belief that there is one set of laws for Jews and one for nonJews has already been gone over. The OT clearly states that there is one law for the native born and one for the gentile. It clearly states that gentiles who convert are to be circumcised before they partake of Passover and Passover is "for all generations."

Cleary states? I've seen numerous posters try to help you but you seem to continually play the 'see no evil, hear no evil' routine. It appears to be clear to you because you have limited your understanding to ONLY what you want to know.

Here, in context, is what Numbers 15 'clearly' indicates in regards to 'who' is being identified, and 'where' it applies.

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'After you enter the land I am giving you as a home 3 and you present to the LORD offerings

14 For the generations to come, whenever an alien or anyone else living among you presents an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, he must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD:16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the alien living among you.' "

17 The LORD said to Moses, 18 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter the land to which I am taking you 19 and you eat the food of the land, present a portion as an offering to the LORD. 20 Present a cake from the first of your ground meal and present it as an offering from the threshing floor.21 Throughout the generations to come you are to give this offering to the LORD from the first of your ground meal.


What you have ignored, whether conciously or not, is that the text indicates 'who' the commands where given to, and 'where' they were to be followed. Sure, same law for the native as the non-native. WHEN/AFTER 'the Israelites' enter the land.

Do you see where it states 'living among you'? This means when the gentile is living in 'the land' among 'the Israelites' (read Jews). But you are not stating that. You are stating all gentiles are bound to the commands given 'the Israelites' wherever they live, in all generations of the world. How convoluted is that understanding in comparison to the actual context of the scriptures?

The NT says that "There is neither Greek nor Jew." We see NONJEWS being told to refrain from blood, per Mosaic Law, in Acts 15. Do you think nonJews can bow down to false gods, murder, steal, covet, etc? I certainly hope not.

Yet, Jews and Gentiles can be forgiven of such things. Forgivness of sins would be the reason Yeshua came, not obedience to commands for forgiveness. Least in the kingdom because we don't (in your eyes) teach and preach the commandents of God? Notice they are still in the kingdom. I'd be happy being the least in his kingdom, yes. If he makes it possible to be the greatest, what a blessing!

Numbers 15:29 These same instructions apply both to native-born Israelites and to the foreigners living among you.

Exodus 12:48 "If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe YHWH's Passover, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it."

(How many times are people going to ignore those Bible verses and keep saying over and over that there are different laws for the Jews and the converted gentiles? Rhetorical Q.)

Yes, how many times will you be shown what I've just shown you and still ignore the clear plain reading of the text?

Please show Bible verses, not something vague and before Moses about Noah etc., that shows Mosaic law is only for Jews. I have shown you, from the Bible, that such is the opposite of the case. If you can't give Scripture to support one set of regs for Jews, and one for converts - and you can't because there are none - then kindly quit acting like that is the case. Truly study Scripture. "Test everything."

Yes, please read it all in context, not just what you desire it to be.

Take a deep breath and think what is meant by "There is neither Greek nor Jew."

And there is neither Male nor Female, right?

Don't miss out on being in Covenant with Messiah due to a little piece of flesh.

So we can miss out on our salvation and relationship with God through the Messiah because we don't observe the Torah as commanded 'the Israelites' when they lived in 'the land'? Our salvation is based on our observances? This is your clear reading of the scriptures?

 

[LoricaLady]

ErezY

"After you have entered into the land..." So are you saying that Jews who are not living in the land are not to keep Passover? Please answer that Q with a Yes or No. "After you have entered into the land" does not have a disclaimer saying, "And thereafter only when you are in the land, or when people wanting to be converts are in the land do these regulations apply. When you are outside the land do what you want."

But, if you think that is to be read between the lines, well, I await your statement of whether or not Jews need to be keeping Passover outside of Israel or not.

As for circumcision, which is basically what the last several posts have been addressing, how could it be only dependent on being "in the Land" or in "The Community"? Abraham got circumcised outside of Israel, before there even was an Israel. All the men under him were circumcised. Nothing says they were believers prior to that time. They certainly were not Israelites.

Joshua required the men of Israel to be circumcised before they went into the Promised Land. You can believe what you want but I feel positive that if a nonIsraelite had asked to become one of their group that he would have been told he had to be circumcised before he could fight with Israel.You quote "The Community is to have the same laws". You seem to be implying that "The Community" is restricted in some ways, but I don't get in what ways. Yeal, comverts are to have the same laws as Isrelites living amongst them. That's all that I see that it says.

You do quote "Throughout the generations to come...." It does not say... But that means these generations under certain conditions and not under other conditions.

Moses already told the people that they would be scattered throughout the world, so we know YHWH knew they would be thus scattered. When the Israelites were in Babylon, do you suppose they still kept Passover as best they could? Please answer with a Yes or No. Do you think they were still getting their babies circumcised? Please answer yes or no. Do you think Jews outside of Israel should still have their babies circumcised on the 8th day? Please answer yes or no.

Circumcision is part of covenanting with YHWH whether one is "in the land" or in "The Community" or not. Again, there was no Israelite "Community" for Abraham. There was as yet no Israel, i.e. "The Land." Yet, in obedience, after showing his faith, he got circumcised and had all his men circumcised. Can there be any doubt that his male descendants, when entering Egypt - before 400 years of paganism affected them - were all circumcised?

Didn't sons of Jacob ask the pagans who held Dinah to get circumcised? Granted it was under false pretenses, but it shows that they really felt that there could be no intimate interactions with the uncircumcised.

"There is neither Greek nor Jew".

I do not see what point you are making by saying "There is neither male nor female." But we do know that women and men are to follow the ordinances of YHWH as directed, and this goes for Greeks and Jews too.

As for salvation we get that through trusting in Messiah. Some do not ever really learn much about Torah thanks to our paganized and traditions of men culture. Abba "winks" at times of ignorance. But I feel you and I are not in ignorance. Salvation can be lost through willful disobedience. In Revelation we see 7 "Churches", all of whom started out as strong believing congregations. Only two of them are not in danger of losing their Menorrah, i.e. the Light of the World.

As some have said, "Obedience is not the root of our salvation, but the fruit of our salvation." If we don't obey, and we know better, then how do we know we even are saved? "If you love Me, keep my Commandments." Messiah's commandments are the same as YHWH's as they are One and "YHWH never changes."

I did ask you to show me some verses that say there is one set of laws for gentiles and one for Israelites. In all the verses you typed in, sorry, I don't see any such thing, particularly, but not exclusively, regarding circumcision.

 

[yonah_mishael]

easy for you to giggle. I have that kind of ignorance and selfglorification on our 'team'; really hard to explain why anyone should be one of us when those folks roam free amongst us, joyfully

I'm not sure of your intention in this post.

 

[ContraMundum]

I am not going to get into Noah and Ninevah. That is a distraction from the main issue here. One thing we know. They had not heard from Moses.

Right. No Moses. God's revelation is progressive. You made my point for me. Now riddle me this- did God stop revealing with Moses? Simple yes or no.

Your belief that there is one set of laws for Jews and one for nonJews has already been gone over.

And still stands tall.

The OT clearly states that there is one law for the native born and one for the gentile.

Careful, you're making my point for me again.

It clearly states that gentiles who convert are to be circumcised before they partake of Passover and Passover is "for all generations."

Yes, Gentiles who convert to Judaism. Hence the circumcision.

The NT says that "There is neither Greek nor Jew."

Let's not slaughter the Bible for rabid theories ok?

That same verse says that there is no man or woman. Or slave or free. Did you become androgynous at your baptism? No. Did I become and Gentile? No. Did you become a Jew. No.

So we remain as we were when we were called.

We see NONJEWS being told to refrain from blood, per Mosaic Law, in Acts 15. Do you think nonJews can bow down to false gods, murder, steal, covet, etc? I certainly hope not.

We see Gentiles told to refrain from circumcision too. Hence, they did not have to become one with the physical nation of Israel.

You're making my case easier as I read.....

(How many times are people going to ignore those Bible verses and keep saying over and over that there are different laws for the Jews and the converted gentiles?

Truth is pretty stubborn, eh? Must be frustrating to push a new doctrine.

 

[Truthfrees]

There's been some wonderful points made in this thread that are being obscured by the personal attacks.

The 1st paragraph of the CF rules (http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0) states:

"Vision
Members of Christian Forums are considerate, motivated by love and not hate, and they respect one another. Because our members are considerate, loving, and respectful, they do not make overly provocative posts, posts which seek to annoy or cause disruption, or posts which personally attack other members out of anger and frustration. Our members desire to contribute in a positive and loving manner so that Christian Forums will display the gracious love of God. Our rules were established for the benefit of both our membership and CF as a whole."

Dear Lord YHWH Almighty, please help us fall in line with the vision of CF.

Help us to value each other and seek to bless each other.

Help us to hear from you Your truth and share it in a manner that will be best received.

Protect us from wounds and offense, and help us by Your grace to not cause wounds or offense.

Fill our hearts with Your love, grace, and forgiveness toward each other.

Forgive us our sins against You and others, and help us forgive the sins made against us by others.

Help us with Your Spirit, Your ability, Your love, Your grace, and Your wisdom, to speak to each other in a way that blesses others and pleases You.

" ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ saith the Lord of hosts." - Zechariah 4:6

In the name of Messiah Yeshua, Amein.

 

[God's Child]

 

[Desert Rose]

I did have a chance to see posts by Yonah and ContraMundum on friday and wish to tell you gentlemen how much I appreciate your knowledge. Having no other purpose on this forum but learning from wiser ones I am honored to be your friend.

Hope to see more of your input on interesting subjects, its always enlightening.

 

[FredVB]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7842040-27/#post66987525In response to me #263

I am not sure what point you are trying to make by your last quote, from Acts 15. It seems - correct me if I am wrong - that you are saying that nowadays we only have to abstain from idols, blood, strangled animals and sexual immorality. If so, that implies that Paul had the authority to change the commands of YHWH. Of course that would cause a gross contradiction with the Scriptures which tells us that we are not to add or subtract from them, and of course which never says that Paul - as he never claimed - had any authority to be our new Deity by changing the Law.
Yes, Paul gave them those "starter" steps, but he expected, as Acts 15 shows, as was the custom at the time, for those new non-Jewish converts to be in the Synagogues on the Sabbaths to learn the rest of the Law of Moses.
Of course we can't refrain from blood and sexual immorality etc. and then be allowed to murder, steal and bow down to other gods now. Of course he wasn't implying that the rest of the Law of Moses is now no longer, as YHWH said, "for all generations".
Re circumcision, again, Paul had no authority to change the command of YHWH there, either. He is even seen circumcising someone. People get confused over what he is saying, often. Peter said he was difficult to understand. How much more so in a foreign language. The early "Church fathers'" writing show them acknowledging they translated the Gospel from Hebrew into Greek. So we are seeing a translation of a translation. There are definitely some errors seen in the process. For ex. we see Messiah supposedly eating with others that included a leper. No, that was against Mosaic Law. No way anyone would have gone to such a meal. Lepers were supposed to call out "unclean" so they could be avoided.
But the Hebrew word for "leper" and "jar maker" are very similar, apparently leading to a translation error. Paul's words are also not always really translated correctly. For ex. as you can see in the above referenced video, there are 7 different Greek meanings for the translated into English word "Law", In English they all come across, in our traditions of men, to mean just the Law of Moses when sometimes that is no way what is being referenced.
So, given translation problems, problems with understanding the culture of the times, and general human confusion which we can all be prone to, we can see how we have to be careful not to say Paul said this or that, but really research the issues. Most important, most important, again, Paul is not our law giver or our law "changer." We must start with what YHWH told us to do and do it, not say, "Paul said....Paul said...."
Again, we are told that there is one law for the Israelite and the foreigner, in the OT. Those gentiles who wanted to come into Covenant with YHWH were required to get circumcised. In the "New" Testament we are told to be grafted into the olive tree which symbolizes Israel. "There is neither Greek nor Jew." We are supposed to become spiritual children of Abraham so that we can partake of the blessings promised to his descendants. Abraham was "justified by faith" and then showed his faith by getting circumcised and having all the men under him circumcised.
Exodus 12:43 ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the Passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: 44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. 46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. 47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. 48 AND WHEN A STRANGER (a non-Israelite) SHALL SOJOURN WITH THEE, AND WILL KEEP THE PASSOVER TO THE LORD, LET ALL HIS MALES BE CIRCUMCISED, AND THEN LET HIM COME NEAR AND KEEP IT; AND HE SHALL BE AS ONE THAT IS BORN IN THE LAND: FOR NO UNCIRCUMCISED PERSON SHALL EAT THEREOF.
Keeping Passover is one of the laws we are told are "for all generations."
Matthew 5:19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
But maybe you aren't saying that Paul annulled any of the Law, or tried to do so. Again, I'm not sure.

No, I certainly was not saying that those four things are the only things for believers to be obedient in, not that many are observing to be obedient in those. There is the morality in the old covenant law that always applies, it is repeated with additional things said for its application in the new testament of the Bible. There is all that is required by Christ and by his apostles, the things required that are said in that new testament. Jewish believers did not stop being Jewish with the observances for them. If you really check Acts 15 what was concluded was not with Paul saying it there.

Those four things were what was still left of what observing Jews were to do that was for gentile believers as well.

Yes, some things were just for Jews to observe. The passage mentioned is clear, gentiles that don't become circumcised to be Jewish are excluded from joining with them in observing Passover. And no one is to sacrifice animals when Christ came and no animal needs to die for us, and we don't need another priest for us instead of Christ, and there is no other way remaining to be made clean in the essential way from requirement in the covenant law.

Why do you stop at only part of what James says? By doing so, you COMPLETELY take what James says out of context to fit into the rebellious tradition taught by man.
James WHOLE statement is: 19 “Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God. 20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”
As a GENTILE you are GRAFTED IN... you are to cease being gentile in how you live your life. Too many, try in a rush to proclaim that the Torah is only for the Jew that as a Gentile I live under the law of liberty.... that is a perversion of what Paul was teaching.
If the Torah only exist when Moche gave it to the people in the wilderness then explain how Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals? Or explain why Adonai says this of Abraham in Genesis 26:5 5 All this is because Avraham heeded what I said and did what I told him to do — he followed my mitzvot, my regulations and my teachings.”
The one who thinks that we can do as we please that Torah is not for the believer is a fool. There is 1 and only 1 Torah for those who follow Adonai. The Goyim were NOT to eat Pesach. A sojourner who walked in Adonai's ways COULD... Pesach was ONLY for the believer who was walking with Adonai....
IT IS A SIGN a SEAL between YOU and ADONAI.
EZ 20:12 "Also I gave them My Sabbaths (these would include some of the feasts) to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."
IMO that seal is for those who are observing Adonai Sabbaths and HIS feasts.....
How can you on the one hand claim you are grafted in yet you refuse to walk in the way which scripture declares you should walk? Such a thing is not possible.
I know of no believer who would declare that the 10 commandments are null and void... that it is acceptable to habitually break them because "I'm free from the law" Every beleiver I have ever talked to is fine with 9 of the 10 and quickly will declare yes, it is good that we obey these... yet when you get to the 4th commandment... well, that is when they pull out the "Im free from the law card."
If you are being intellectually honest that should bother you... what is the issue with Shabbot????? The issue is that the enemy HATES Sabbath... detests it and will do ANYTHING he can to keep you blind to the truth... If one simply says to Adonai Show me the truth father... whatever and wherever the truth takes me I will go... when you do that, its plain as day to see....And THAT is the truth

I am not saying anything against observing Sabbath, check, where do you see that? The passage I had used was not that showing what James had said, but the apostolic epistle that revealed requirements with authority from the Spirit of God.

I don't promote such a position, but if you look in General Theology, and especially Sabbath and the Law, you will find believers that say the ten are null and void.

 

[BukiRob]

In response to me http://www.christianforums.com/t7842040-27/#post66987525





I am not saying anything against observing Sabbath, check, where do you see that? The passage I had used was not that showing what James had said, but the apostolic epistle that revealed requirements with authority from the Spirit of God.

I don't promote such a position, but if you look in General Theology, and especially Sabbath and the Law, you will find believers that say the ten are null and void.

And General Theology is wrong.

There in lies the issue. G-d does not change. Modern "christianity" is do your own thing as you free and your sins are forgiven. Scripture says that this is EVIL.

The problem is far, far, far too little of the OT is studied by believers and once you begin to study you see that Torah is for ALL who are called by HIS name... ALL... meaning YOU, ME ALL

 

[pat34lee]

Yes, Gentiles who convert to Judaism. Hence the circumcision.

You should know by now there were no Jews and no Judaism at that time. There was only Israel; 12 tribes who served Yahweh.

 

[BukiRob]

You should know by now there were no Jews and no Judaism at that time. There was only Israel; 12 tribes who served Yahweh.

Thats wrong. A gentile could convert if he was circumcized and began to walk in the obedience of the Torah

 

[Truthfrees]

And General Theology is wrong.

There in lies the issue. G-d does not change. Modern "christianity" is do your own thing as you free and your sins are forgiven. Scripture says that this is EVIL.

The problem is far, far, far too little of the OT is studied by believers and once you begin to study you see that Torah is for ALL who are called by HIS name... ALL... meaning YOU, ME ALL

Absolutely. It's called "lawlessness". (Matthew 7:23)

Check out what Yeshua says about lawlessness: https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=lawless&qs_version=NKJV

Torah is clearly contained in the Re-New-ed Covenant made with Israel.

We Gentiles are grafted into Israel, and Yeshua says not even the smallest letter of Torah is passed away. (Matthew 5:17-19)

When we enter into the Jewish Re-New-ed Covenant, we're not Noahides. We're members of YHWH's chosen family of kings and priests. (Exodus 19:6, 1 Peter 2:9)

We have grace by the power of the Holy Spirit, as we learn Torah.

If we're taught the truth, and join the Jewish community, we'll eventually by YHWH's grace learn and do the 271 mitzvot that apply to covenant life today.

Noahides are under the Noahide covenant. They aren't grafted into Israel. They're separate and unique, with their own 7 laws which correspond to 66 Torah mitzvot.

 

[pat34lee]

Thats wrong. A gentile could convert if he was circumcized and began to walk in the obedience of the Torah

Conversion isn't in question. It is what they converted to. It wasn't Judaism, as that did not exist. It wasn't about religion at all. Look at what Ruth said when she joined Naomi.

Ruth 1:16
And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:
​

That is conversion. Becoming part of the nation of Israel; a subject of Yahweh and all the laws he commanded.