Maybe Moses was invented by the Rabbis ?

[Hoshiyya]

If indeed the Jews are wrong about such basic issues as the calendar / Yovelim, guess what, they might as well be wrong on the origin of the scriptures.

How can one trust any of the things the Jewish scribes recorded in the scriptures, if one cannot trust them generally ?

The MG inclination is to presume the Rabbis are wrong until proven otherwise, and if taken to its logical conclusion, why even trust the Rabbis when they say they wrote down and preserved the word of God faithfully ?

Maybe some of these Rabbanan just invented the idea of Moses, just like they - supposedly, accoridng to MG - invented all their other false ideas.

Maybe Abraham, Elijah and David never existed, and those crafty liars dressed in black just invented them, just like they invented all their other ideas.

Maybe locusts are actually not Kosher, and the crafty Rabbanan decided to just make them Kosher.

I mean, we can't trust them on Yovelim or any issue really (according to MG) so why trust them on anything ?

Why trust the Jew Baruch recorded Jeremiah's words faithfully ?
After all, he's a Jew.
Why even trust Jeremiah recited what God actually told him to recite ?
After all, he's not American.




This is a continuation of, or elaboration on, THIS post, which was written in context of a discussion regarding how to count the Jubilees (Yovelim) and hence what calendrical tradition, if any, it would be best to follow.

 

[pat34lee]

Nothing like a little dramatic license. If there's a bad apple, burn the orchard!

 

[Hoshiyya]

If there's a bad apple, burn the orchard!

Amen. That's exactly what certain Gentiles do to Judaism and Torah. The Jews make one or two mistakes and hey, commence the kindling. Of course, Satan is smart enough to never destroy all the truth, since he needs his lies to include a bit of truth to be palatable.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

If indeed the Jews are wrong about such basic issues as the calendar / Yovelim, guess what, they might as well be wrong on the origin of the scriptures.

How can one trust any of the things the Jewish scribes recorded in the scriptures, if one cannot trust them generally ?

The MG inclination is to presume the Rabbis are wrong until proven otherwise, and if taken to its logical conclusion, why even trust the Rabbis when they say they wrote down and preserved the word of God faithfully ?

Maybe some of these Rabbanan just invented the idea of Moses, just like they - supposedly, accoridng to MG - invented all their other false ideas.

Maybe Abraham, Elijah and David never existed, and those crafty liars dressed in black just invented them, just like they invented all their other ideas.

Maybe locusts are actually not Kosher, and the crafty Rabbanan decided to just make them Kosher.

I mean, we can't trust them on Yovelim or any issue really (according to MG) so why trust them on anything ?

Why trust the Jew Baruch recorded Jeremiah's words faithfully ?
After all, he's a Jew.
Why even trust Jeremiah recited what God actually told him to recite ?
After all, he's not American.




This is a continuation of, or elaboration on, THIS post, which was written in context of a discussion regarding how to count the Jubilees (Yovelim) and hence what calendrical tradition, if any, it would be best to follow.

It's interesting how so many people will choose to omit some things in the bible and say,'' The Jews added that.''


Until I came here, I never realized how many Christians there really were that claim Zechariah 14 was invented by Jews, and added something not of God.


But there are also other places.

For instance, if you tell somebody that all the leaders of the world will gather the wealth of the world to set at the feet of Jews, they don't wanna believe it, and if that is what the world is forced to do, then shouldn't we already be doing it?

I am always shocked at how much of the bible people will say,'' The greedy Jews added that scripture.''


But to throw out the entire chapter of Zechariah 14 is really something, and the thing that gets me, is that you can prove what happens in Zechariah 14 in other places, and still, many believe that it was not the word of God.

 

[Hoshiyya]

It's interesting how so many people will choose to omit some things in the bible and say,'' The Jews added that.''


Until I came here, I never realized how many Christians there really were that claim Zechariah 14 was invented by Jews, and added something not of God.


But there are also other places.

For instance, if you tell somebody that all the leaders of the world will gather the wealth of the world to set at the feet of Jews, they don't wanna believe it, and if that is what the world is forced to do, then shouldn't we already be doing it?

I am always shocked at how much of the bible people will say,'' The greedy Jews added that scripture.''


But to throw out the entire chapter of Zechariah 14 is really something, and the thing that gets me, is that you can prove what happens in Zechariah 14 in other places, and still, many believe that it was not the word of God.

And indeed, the cynics may well say that it was the Rabbis, and not Hashem, who said:

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'"
Zech. 8:23

"In that day seven women will take hold of one man and say, "We will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace!"
Isa. 4:1

"The children of your oppressors will come bowing before you; all who despise you will bow down at your feet and will call you the City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel."
Isa. 60:8

To clarify:
I personally do NOT believe these passages are products of human corruption or editing. Neither do I doubt, in any way whatsoever, the historicity and existence of Mosheh Rabbeinu.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

And indeed, the cynics may well say that it was the Rabbis, and not Hashem, who said:

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'"
Zech. 8:23

"In that day seven women will take hold of one man and say, "We will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace!"
Isa. 4:1

"The children of your oppressors will come bowing before you; all who despise you will bow down at your feet and will call you the City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel."
Isa. 60:8

To clarify:
I personally do NOT believe these passages are products of human corruption or editing. Neither do I doubt, in any way whatsoever, the historicity and existence of Rabbeinu Mosheh.

Yup, those are some of my favorite scriptures, and what it means to grasp the garment of a Jew is a huge, HUGE big thing.

They are begging the Jew to teach them.

The same can be said that ten men are a legal congregation, and of course I believe those ten men stand for ten tribes, but nevertheless, they are a congregation to each Jew.

The Book of Numbers sets up the priests to look as Passover lambs standing in the stead of each first born, but there was not enough priests to go for all the first born, and it was one priest per person, and the priest could not stand for anyone else.

One person had the name of one priest.

The ones who did not have their own personal priest to stand for the had to pay the temple tax, and that would really, really be bad, but at least there was a way.

Now Judah is a mixture of those priests, and they are shown that the Jew will stand for ten because there aren't enough Jews in the world to stand for each gentile.

And while we have Jesus's name to stand in our stead, this does not cancel out the reality of what happens in the physical world.

It's why we see that one day people freak out and gather the wealth of the world, and those people who have been caring for Jews will be smiling then, because they went out and personally found a name and became a servant before it was forced upon them.

But the nation and people who will not serve will then try and pay the Temple tax.

But that is my good opinion, that every gentile should have the name of a Jew that they took a personal interest in, and they should count themselves very lucky if they have went out and found a needy Jew and saw to his needs.

That is having an extra vessel, filled with oil.

But yeah, I think it went from one first born and one priest, to one priest having a legal congregation unto themselves, and then it would be true that they were a nation of priests.

How does a Gentile work in his priestly duties?

He brings the fruits.

"Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. 21"I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.

 

[NannaNae]

" at a jews feet " his name is Jesus...I suspect he is qualified as a
jew ! and when I get some of that shinny stuff I will give it to him..

 

[Hoshiyya]

" at a jews feet " his name is Jesus...I suspect he is qualified as a
jew ! and when I get some of that shinny stuff I will give it to him..

All those passages were written prior to the first century.
You seem to think one of the quotes was from the gospels, but it is from the Nevi'im.
Either that, or you haven't read the OP.

Not sure what your inappropriate choice of "smiley" is supposed to denote, but it certainly seems you are trying to mock or ridicule something. Sticking out the tongue in that fashion is universally recognized as an insult.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

" at a jews feet " his name is Jesus...I suspect he is qualified as a
jew ! and when I get some of that shinny stuff I will give it to him..

There are so many scriptures that speak of this event, that it cannot be look at other than what it really says.

The whole world will bring the wealth of the world to set at the feet of Jews, Jesus began speaking by saying that he came to make servants for Israel, that the gentiles of the world will serve, they will build the walls, and work the fields, and take care of the oppressed of Israel.

The world has spent 6000 years persecuting the children and seed of God, but this all comes to an end when the kingdom returns to Israel.

The universal prophecies show the whole world accepting the feasts of Israel, and the entire globe becomes one religion.

In those days, if anyone will not keep the feast of Israel, they are severely punished, and when the feast of Tabernacles comes, it judges the many who are against Israel and it's feasts, who are against Jerusalem and the king of Jerusalem in his feasts.

What Zechariah 14 describes and insinuates is that if you aren't already keeping the feast of Tabernacles, you are in trouble, and if you are against such things and fight against them, you tongue melts in your head before you hit the ground, your eyes melt in your head before you hit the ground, and everyone left alive who remain will then keep the feasts of Israel or they will be punished.

It's not that people fail in keeping any law, it is showing people who are against the feasts of Jesus, and who refuse to walk in the feasts of Jesus.

They refuse to walk in Passover dying daily, they reject the Holy feasts of God altogether and in having done so, it has killed countless of people.

Today, people think nothing of keeping feast days and traditions that have killed so many Jews and Christians.


Feast days and traditions is how you run a people, if you can change the times and seasons and turn people away from the feast days of Christ, you are not just justifying the people who stood above God in order to change them, you stand against anyone who would keep them.


When I went from 40 years of Christian feast days and traditions to the feast days and traditions of Jesus, it completely changed my life for the better.

I lost my job and they looked at me like I was Judas myself. My wife divorced me for being what she said,'' A wannabe Jew,'' just because I chose to follow Christ in his feast days.

My whole family refuse to even speak of God with me, and they look at me as if I was a devil sent in to corrupt them.

Seemingly countless of sermons directly preached against me from church to church.

When people find out that you begin following Jesus, they will all despise you.

 

[ErezY]

If indeed the Jews are wrong about such basic issues as the calendar / Yovelim, guess what, they might as well be wrong on the origin of the scriptures.

How can one trust any of the things the Jewish scribes recorded in the scriptures, if one cannot trust them generally ?

The MG inclination is to presume the Rabbis are wrong until proven otherwise, and if taken to its logical conclusion, why even trust the Rabbis when they say they wrote down and preserved the word of God faithfully ?

Maybe some of these Rabbanan just invented the idea of Moses, just like they - supposedly, accoridng to MG - invented all their other false ideas.

Maybe Abraham, Elijah and David never existed, and those crafty liars dressed in black just invented them, just like they invented all their other ideas.

Maybe locusts are actually not Kosher, and the crafty Rabbanan decided to just make them Kosher.

I mean, we can't trust them on Yovelim or any issue really (according to MG) so why trust them on anything ?

Why trust the Jew Baruch recorded Jeremiah's words faithfully ?
After all, he's a Jew.
Why even trust Jeremiah recited what God actually told him to recite ?
After all, he's not American.




This is a continuation of, or elaboration on, THIS post, which was written in context of a discussion regarding how to count the Jubilees (Yovelim) and hence what calendrical tradition, if any, it would be best to follow.

Considering the priests were the God ordained authority, and that he never said he was going to shift that authority to self appointed men, I'd say these Messianic Gentiles have a valid point. It seems the rabbi's were never authorized by God to run the show for Judaism.

As Moishe Rosen once wrote:

The authority that people choose for themselves is vastly different from the authority God would place over us. Few people desire authority in their lives, but most will give someone authority over them in exchange for protection.

And when the rabbis took the mantle of authority upon themselves, it was for the sake of protecting the Jewish people. The protection was not so much in regard to a military threat, but rather the threat that we would lose our peoplehood without the Temple, that we would succumb to the temptations of assimilation and be lost in a sea of goyim. So the rabbis became the interpreters of the Jewish religion and thus the protectors of our people’s survival.

Religion requires revelation and regulation; the first needs to be authoritatively interpreted and the second needs to be authoritatively enforced. However, without the sacrificial system, much of the Law seemed empty. Much of the Torah was no longer relevant once the Temple was destroyed and the people dispersed. And with the diminishing of the priests came the disappearance of prophets. Thus the rabbis could not base their authority on revelation.

But that problem was solved through an idea which pervades Orthodox Judaism to this day. It is difficult to determine if the idea originated at Yavneh, but a particular idea or device gave authority to the rabbis apart from actual anointing and to some extent, apart from the Scriptures. That device is the oral law. Supposedly, Moses not only brought the written law, and dictated the Torah, but according to tradition he received an oral law. This law was passed down orally to select disciples until the Talmud was written. The Talmud is said to contain that oral law – and the Talmud gives prominence to the rabbis.
The rabbis’ final appeal was to tradition and so it is to this day. “Judaism teaches” became the foundation to uphold the Jewish religion, and the building material for that foundation was the consensus of the rabbis. The one thing that the rabbis seemed to agree on was that Jesus could not be the Messiah, and any Jew who said that He was must be made an outcast.

Whereas the original people, items and place for worship were all selected by God and anointed of God, the rabbinate became a self-appointing, self-perpetuating and self-authenticating group. That is not to say that God did not use rabbis, that their intentions were bad or all their efforts in vain. But unlike the priests and Levites, the rabbis were not worship leaders. In a sense, they were spiritual watchdogs to bark warnings against idolatry and law-breaking. Later, the rabbis turned from warning of what was unlawful within Judaism to decrying what was harmful to the Jews from the outside. They became captains in the fight against anti-Semitism and assimilation. However, worship continued to be largely a matter of the heart and more often than not, the rabbis instructed the heads rather than the hearts.

Jewish people today continue looking to the rabbis as authorities, not so much for the rabbis to tell them to know God, or even necessarily how to live their daily lives, but for a feeling of security. The point of security is that there is such a thing as cohesive Judaism that enables the Jewish people to survive as a distinct people – whether or not they choose to practice the religion. The main power and authority of the rabbis resides in the willingness of the Jewish community to allow them to define what is or isn’t Jewish. People find security in boundaries, and a definition is a boundary. While the rabbis are able to provide fewer and fewer definitions or boundaries in today’s pluralistic society, there is at least one non-negotiable: Jesus cannot be the Messiah. Today’s rabbis use that boundary, which is viewed as necessary to the survival of the Jewish people.
​

Question Authority, Part Two - Jews for Jesus

 

[Hoshiyya]

Whether it is Levites or Jews who explain how to keep and practice and live the Torah to us makes no difference, since we cannot usually prove convincingly that this or that person is - truly - a Kohen.
Furthermore, an uneducated descendant of Aaron, that is to say a non-Rabbi, has no business teaching anyone. Wisdom that can help us today in our daily life is what matters.

 

[annier]

Whether it is Levites or Jews who explain how to keep and practice and live the Torah to us makes no difference,

Really? Is this what the law says?

Levitical authority to decide matters of law among the people of Israel....
De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word (Mouth)shall every controversy and every stroke be tried: {word: Heb. mouth}

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Jews for Jesus, I wouldn't want to be in the same room with those people.

I certainly wouldn't read something they presented.

They might just be Satan themselves.

I was a member on the Jews for Jesus forum for the years they had a forum, and all I did was protect the Jews that ventured in there.

Those people would take a Jew and strip away all his culture and heritage to make him a gentile, I can't think of a worse organization.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Really? Is this what the law says?

Well the Assembly of elders (which included some Kohanim) was always above the (other) Kohanim in authority. And of course, most of the Kohanim were Sadducees, a major problematic heresy (in my view) that keeps being a subject in your posts. (Incidentally, it was a Levite NOT a Jew who judged Yeshua to death!)

But let's assume your implications are right, for the sake of argument:
since few if any can truly prove themselves Levites, there are no authorities then?
It is a free for all?
Sounds like anarchy, each man his own priest.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Jews for Jesus, I wouldn't want to be in the same room with those people.

I certainly wouldn't read something they presented.

They might just be Satan themselves.

I was a member on the Jews for Jesus forum for the years they had a forum, and all I did was protect the Jews that ventured in there.

Those people would take a Jew and strip away all his culture and heritage to make him a gentile, I can't think of a worse organization.

HF, you are so cool.
Seriously.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Really? Is this what the law says?

Levitical authority to decide matters of law among the people of Israel....
De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word (Mouth)shall every controversy and every stroke be tried: {word: Heb. mouth}

Who is going to walk into the Holy of Holies to ask forgiveness for my sins?

I am!

I am the Temple, and nobody is holding my hand here, I have no Rabbi, and no authority.

I have a High priest in heaven and he is my authority, there are none on Earth who stand with him.

I offer sacrifice, and I light the incense.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

HF, you are so cool.
Seriously.

Nice, I say the same about you.

When I got the hunger, I went out looking for Jews about 1998, and Jews for Jesus was the only place I could find Jews.

I was shocked to find out how much hatred Jews for Jesus had for Jews.

I made such good friends there too, Jews who didn't believe in Jesus loved me there, and I loved them.

Jews for Jesus were trying to tell them that the Jewish feasts were evil, and all they did was persecute Jews as much as you could do so on a forum, I suppose it aint persecution but it was heartbreaking to watch.


I really, really don't like those people, they are liars and frauds, what a name,'' Jews for Jesus.''

They aint no part Jew.

 

[pshun2404]

What is Yovel? From the root יבל tp bear or carry....eventually it became identified with a ram and then finally the rams horn (the shofar)...true Yovelim are the warnings of God which carry or bear the task of revealing His will to us...today, modern Rabbinics has altered this to mean the statements of men as they discuss the Torah, or count time, etc., but these are not truly yovel...(one could ask when two or more differ in their opinion, which is correct? While God's word is always correct)

Paul

 

[Hoshiyya]

I made such good friends there too, Jews who didn't believe in Jesus loved me there, and I loved them.

That's the Torah my friend. It makes us, and then keeps us, good, in spite of our knowledge of other things. A Jew might believe the earth is flat, or that everyone except he himself are bound for hell, but as long as he - actually - keeps Torah, those beliefs or misunderstandings aren't going to impact him.

 

[Hoshiyya]

What is Yovel? From the root יבל tp bear or carry....eventually it became identified with a ram and then finally the rams horn (the shofar)...true Yovelim are the warnings of God which carry or bear the task of revealing His will to us...today, modern Rabbinics has altered this to mean the statements of men as they discuss the Torah, or count time, etc., but these are not truly yovel...(one could ask when two or more differ in their opinion, which is correct? While God's word is always correct)

Paul

If you read the Torah (Lev chs. 25 & 27, Num ch. 36) you'd see that it refers to certain fifty-year periods of time called Yovelim. There is not a single Torah scroll that contradicts that. You know better than the Torah?

This is the EXACT reason I started this thread. If you start to uproot the Rabbis, you necessarily uproot the Torah with it.

"Maybe the Jews invented this, maybe the Jews invented that."