May is For Mary

[Fish and Bread]

May is often thought of as the month of the Blessed Mother. What are your favorite Marian traditions and devotions related to May and in general? May Processions and Crownings? May poles? The rosary?

Do you think the Mary of tradition is a representation or reflection of the feminine aspects of God in some respects?

Does the Church put too much emphasis on Mary in your opinion? Too little? Just right?

What do you think of the personality or characteristics of the Mary of the bible relative to the Mary of early Christian tradition relative to the Mary of apparitions? Speaking of which, do you believe in apparitions?

 

[Fantine]

I have not been involved in Marian traditions for many, many years. I relate to Mary primarily as someone who is also a mother. If I pray to Mary, it's to use her as a sounding board if I'm trying to sort out some dilemma concerning my own children. When I pray for my children, I generally pray directly to God.

My favorite prayer to Mary is a litany. Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary | Miracle of the Rosary Mission

I have loved litanies since I was a child in Catholic school--they're like beautiful mantras with a little bit of variety and creativity added in. You pray them until the words "pray for us" are like gentle waves lapping over you and bringing you peace of mind and spirit. The words caress your senses, a continual reminder of God's providence.

My least favorite prayer to Mary? "Hail, Holy Queen." I think because the thrust of the prayer has a different vision of life than I do. I do not think that we are "mourning and weeping in a valley of tears." I think that life is beautiful, and that we should seek out the beauty and joy in God's creation, and strive through our love in action to make life joyful for others.

Even in Guatemala, surrounded by desperate poverty, I felt enveloped in genuine love and joy. Life is good, and through our actions, we can make it better for one another.

"Mourning and weeping in a valley of tears?" It's like "the victim's prayer." I really dislike it. And "poor banished children of Eve?" As if Adam didn't have a role in all that?

My favorite Mary hymn? Gounod's "Ave Maria." When you use Bach's Prelude in C as a backdrop, it's gotta be beautiful.

I love "Holy is Your Name" by David Haas. Yes, John Michael Talbot does one that is better known, but the Haas one uses Celtic melodies that speak to my cultural roots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bycrfm-8EwA

 

[Rhamiel]

May is often thought of as the month of the Blessed Mother. What are your favorite Marian traditions and devotions related to May and in general? May Processions and Crownings? May poles? The rosary?

the Rosary and the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel
those two devotions go hand in hand and have done much to bring people back to Christ

Do you think the Mary of tradition is a representation or reflection of the feminine aspects of God in some respects?

no

Does the Church put too much emphasis on Mary in your opinion? Too little? Just right?

well "the Church" is the people
do you mean the Magisterium? I think most Bishops and the Pope have a good healthy respect and devotion to the Blessed Mother
I think a lot of lay Catholics have either been influenced by secular academics and devout Protestants into viewing Marian devotion as nothing more then superstition (kinda funny how atheist college Professors and 7 Day Creationists both belittle devotion to the Blessed Mother)

What do you think of the personality or characteristics of the Mary of the bible relative to the Mary of early Christian tradition relative to the Mary of apparitions? Speaking of which, do you believe in apparitions?

I was thinking on this when I woke up
My grandmother is from Italy and my Dad grew up in a VERY Italian neighborhood in the Bronx
like most of the Italian immigrants were from Sicily and Calabria, two of the poorest and most under-developed regions in all of Western Europe
but when the immigrants moved here, they built beautiful churches with ornate statues in them! When I visit my family in New York I LOVE seeing those beautiful Catholic parishes
some people are scandalized by the ornate Italian statues of Mary as a Queen, saying that it does not represent the Hebrew peasant we see in the Bible
but you have to realize, these statues were made by people who KNEW the peasant life, who knew poverty and injustice and social inequality
lol and if you know any Italian-American families (especially from the Bronx) you know that these people also know strong women!
Mary is the example of the Christian disciple par excellence
the regal attire that we see her clad in (both in art and in how we speak of her in prayer) speaks to this inner nobility, this inner strength and of the grace of God that has made her rich in blessings

Mary in the Bible is such a complex figure
humility and gentleness, but also a "social justice warrior" as we can see in Magnificat in Luke 1:43-55 talking about how the Lord scatters the mighty and pulls down the mighty from their thrones, we see a strong woman, one who was able to flee from her home and live in Egypt for years
but for all this strength and spiritual richness, we also see a humility, a trusting in God, pointing to her Son at the wedding in Cana, telling the stewards to do as He says
also, in Revelation 12, we see the mother of Christ represented with regal attributes (it can be argued that the Woman of Revelation 12 represents faithful Israel, I do not see this as an "either or" but a "both and" scenario)
so using regal imagery for the Blessed mother is very biblical, I do not really see a dichotomy between the "Mary of the Bible" and the "Mary of Tradition" it is just Mary

as for the apparitions, Fatima is the apparition for our time
Our Lady warned us of WWII and we did not listen
she told us to pray the Rosary to prevent war, to prevent Russia from spreading its errors and we did not listen
I think that viewing the "errors of Russia" as socialism is an over simplification
as many people have pointed out, the Apostles lived in socialist like communes of Believers, so their is nothing inherently evil about sharing the means of Capitol
I think the "error of Russia" that we were warned about is secularism
and it is still spreading, crippling our culture and the world
we have not listened to Our Mother, we have not prayed the Rosary, Russia has not been converted, it is still secular and spreading evil

 

[mark46]

Does the Church put too much emphasis on Mary in your opinion? Too little? Just right?

What do you think of the personality or characteristics of the Mary of the bible relative to the Mary of early Christian tradition relative to the Mary of apparitions? Speaking of which, do you believe in apparitions?

I guess I struggle with concept of emphasis.

I believe that the Church overstepped (as the Orthodox point) out in adding the Marian dogmas from the Chair Of Peter. The Church oversteps when it considers Mary Co-redemptrix. The people overstep in believing in thousands and thousands of apparitions and signs. Having said this, Mary is the most important of the saints, and the Church rightfully has her in a very important role.

It seem clear that Mary has appeared to people over the centuries. I think that the Church has the right balance in recognizing very, very few of these apparitions, and is right in requiring the belief in none of them.

 

[Fish and Bread]

The Church oversteps when it considers Mary Co-redemptrix.

I agree with you on that one. Mary being co-redemptrix with Jesus because she was sad by the foot of the cross doesn't work for me. It's not the same thing. It completely obliterates a lot of scriptural and traditional language and symbolism going back into the Old Testament about Jesus being the one and only sacrifice for sin. There's a specific literary thing where Abraham offers his son to God and offers his son to man. People try to pedal this off by saying "Oh, well, anyone who offers up their sadness in any way are participating in the redemption", and maybe they are, but all those people are not being named as co-redeemers in the way people want to give Mary this title- the title itself implies a co-equal role in something that had to be done by a single person in a traditional theological context.

Mary being the mediator of ALL grace, the medatrix thing that often goes along with this, similarly obliterates the idea of Jesus being the mediator between God and man. I mean, sure, we can, yeah, this comes to this person and then that person and it all ultimately comes from God, but didn't it always? The point in the incarnation was God among us. Jesus to conveys his grace to humanity. Sticking Mary in between in all cases instead of just SOME cases, is really no different from God working through the prophets or whatever. Jesus' uniqueness is chipped away at. And we march closer to paganism.

If people want a female version of God, I would be more comfortable referring to God in the feminine. I really would be.

Having said that, the pre-Fatima rosary is a nice thing. The Hail Mary is a nice thing. I like the Mary of the bible and early tradition. I like some statues of Mary (Depends on the statue, some look a little cartoony for my tastes). I like the Mexican candles of the Blessed Mother. I think the symbolism of innocence and grace and the value of the feminine that Mary represents in Catholicism is a good thing.

I just think there came a point where people like Monefort took this way too far and it'd be good to reel it back in. I also think the Church could make the Assumption and maybe the Immaculate Conception holy days of obligation and then call it a day on the Marian specific days of obligation. They are just making up stuff now, like the January 1st thing that was not a holy day or a feast *at all* at the mid-point of the 20th century (There was an old feast there relating to Jesus' circumcision, but not a Marian one) and putting them on the calendar as holy days of obligation while stuff like the Ascension and Epiphany are not holy days of obligation (At least in some places) and are often moved to Sunday. It's weird. I think it comes from the division of the Church, to be honest. Roman Catholicism lost the balance that the people who are today not Roman Catholics but would otherwise have been pre-Reformation would have brought to it, and people feel they must affirm the Catholic identity by extending and warping traditions to almost their breaking point to show how Catholic they are relative to the Protestants.

I think churches that fail to recognize veneration of Mary and the Saints are out of step with archaeological evidence we have of the traditions and faith of the earliest Christians. The Church should venerate the Saints, including Mary. However, I think it all needs to point to God and not diminish the uniqueness of the incarnation. Mary is not the fourth part of the trinity. She participates in the life of the trinity in heaven, perhaps, which is perhaps what all saints will ultimately do, and perhaps she does so in a special way beyond that, but the co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all graces stuff strikes me as overdoing it and does damage to tradition. There's an element of "Oh yeah, you don't like that we venerate Mary, well look at what we're doing now. Take that, doubters! We're doubling down. And we're doubling it again. And again." and eventually they get into territory that is troubling to me.

And I kind of hate that when I say this it probably sounds like I don't like Mary, when in fact I do. I love the person I read about in the bible. I think much of the Protestant world is missing out on Mary when they limit her as strictly as many denominations do. I used to drive a long way to go to an Anglo-Catholic Candlemas thing where they sang all eight verses of Immaculate Mary (Yes, there are eight verses, not four as in many Catholic hymnals I've seen), which is a great hymn, and stuff like the that.

But the harsh Mary of apparitions or a Mary who is our only source of grace is stepping beyond Christianity as I'd like to understand it, with all due respect to the Blessed Mother, who's veneration I do support within limits. I don't know how this gentle woman becomes this harsh demanding person threatening hellfire, but if that's what exposure to God does, it really makes me wonder about Christianity. You'd like to think about 2,000 years of heaven, Mary would be very mellow and peaceful and loving and just kind of chill and appear to people and be like a taste of heaven and not have a list of demands or strong requests about fasting on bread and water constants accompanied by what come over as threats about hell and with scary images to show to demonstrate he point. Like is that the person we're supposed to become in heaven?

I also don't like the "Mary: Enemy of the Soviet Union" stuff. I mean, to me, turning her into a 20th century Cold Warrior is really detracting from the mythos. That's sort of beneath her, isn't it? We gotta take out the Soviets so we can open up a McDonalds in Moscow and eventually the Russian mob and Putin can run the place? That's religion as political propaganda in some respects.

To be honest, I do not want to believe in the more popular apparitions I've heard of, so I don't. But Fatima is better than that Eastern European thing. At least those kids at Fatima seemed sincere, which seems less the case with the other one. And the Eastern European thing takes the bad aspects of Fatima and kicks them up about 10 notches in terms of the portray of Mary. It kind of gives me the creeps.

Remember here, I said I like a *lot* of Marian stuff. But as with any good thing, there is usually someone somewhere going a little bit overboard with it. It's what people do in general. Not just with religious stuff, most stuff.

 

[Rhamiel]

I also don't like the "Mary: Enemy of the Soviet Union" stuff. I mean, to me, turning her into a 20th century Cold Warrior is really detracting from the mythos. That's sort of beneath her, isn't it? We gotta take out the Soviets so we can open up a McDonalds in Moscow and eventually the Russian mob and Putin can run the place? That's not religion as political propaganda in some respects.

I agree with you
I think a lot of people saw "the conversion of Russia = fall of the Soviet Union"
it is obvious that Russia has not been converted yet
secularism, materialism, sex slavery, drug abuse, atheism, schism
yeah, not signs of conversion

I am kind of confused by your comment on "I would not like to believe in the harsh Mary of apparitions"
just because you do not like something does not mean it is not real
read the Old Testament Prophets
or read Jesus talking to the Pharisees
sometimes God (and His prophets) show tough love and do not parse words

lol, we are in 100% agreement about that Medjugorje though

 

[Fish and Bread]

I am kind of confused by your comment on "I would not like to believe in the harsh Mary of apparitions"
just because you do not like something does not mean it is not real

You have a valid point there and I think I would agree with it when it comes to things that are very concrete and quantifiable like science and world events and so on and so forth. However, faith by it's very nature admits a certain degree of uncertainty and asks for a certain amount of hope. So, to sort of jumble together some of the words used in 1 Corinthians 13 in a different way, I'd say that I try to hope for a God who loves and do my best to work on having faith in that. Same applies to the Virgin Mary and the Saints.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think ditching Mary was a sin of Protestantism. Throwing the baby out with bathwater due to junk theology. But given the reductionist humanism most of the reformers were steeped in, I think it was somewhat inevitable.

I am formerly Eastern Orthodox (non-communing catechumen for most of this decade). I currently attend an Episcopal church and I find the spirituality weird. It's not Anglo-Catholic, just run-of-the-mill broad church worship. It's honestly hard for me to understand how one can be a Christian in this manner. It just strikes me as positively sterile. I could go on about this but I think it's best left for another post.

I did Stations of the Cross one year and sang the Stabat Mater . But it felt like a catholic ghost in a church that barely embraced the idea that a Christian should be catholic. My heart is still Orthodox, I suppose.

In reply to Fish... the God of the Bible is never demanding as well? And no, Mary is not, in Christian tradition as a whole, generally considered soft and cuddly and nonthreatening - that seems more of a saccharine sentimental portrait created by Baroque and Tridentine Roman Catholics and German/Scandinavian pietists. I'd say her image in Eastern Orthodoxy is that she is generally seen as a strong, even fierce figure. Go read or hear the Akathist hymn some time.

Nevertheless, I'm agnostic about most Marian apparitions- I think they probably have genuinely happened at times.

 

[Fish and Bread]

In reply to Fish... the God of the Bible is never demanding as well?

I would personally like to see a transition to a view where we believe that the scriptures are very meaningful and important religious documents, but are to some degree products of their time and not infallible on every point. I'd like to think that God didn't actually order the Israelis to take random cities and kill every last man, woman, and child. Call me a bleeding heart liberal if you must, but I'm not for a God who does those sort of things. I'd like to think those are more of a perception of God at that the time than a literal thing and are intended to convey that God is on the side of his children and "fights" for them in some respects, and not that he really literally wanted people to dash the heads of infants on stones for having the temerity to be born in a city that God has randomly granted to some other religious or ethnicity group at the expense of the baby's civilization that built the city.

 

[Rhamiel]

fire dragon

I'd say her image in Eastern Orthodoxy is that she is generally seen as a strong, even fierce figure. Go read or hear the Akathist hymn some time.

sounds like how a lot of old Italian ladies also see the Blessed Mother
lol those of you who know Italians, the women of the family are no shrinking violets conforming to Victorian ideals of femininity
lol we have a plump Madonna holding a plump Baby Jesus fierce and loving

Fish and Bread

Call me a bleeding heart liberal if you must

you are a bleeding heart liberal