Matthew 25:31:46

[anonymouswho]

Hello everyone. Thank you for reading my thread. I wanted to discuss Matthew 25:31-46.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

The most common interpretation is that Yeshua is talking about Christians when he says sheep, and he is talking about unbelievers when he says goats. This is considered one of the strongest verses that proves God is going to send billions of people to have their flesh burned in hell forever and ever (because one forever is not near long enough)

I'm not saying this interpretation is impossible, because everyone knows "God is outside the bounds of logic and reality" or whatever...but I do believe this is highly unlikely.

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous (sheep) answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?"

In this part, Yeshua is telling the sheep (which are animals) that when he was hungry, thirsty, sick ect... they attended to his needs. The sheep then reply "When?"

First question...

When the King tells you, a Christian and disciple of Jesus (who has this parable in your English bible), that when he was hungry you fed him, what are you going to say?

Are you going to ask "When?"....to which Jesus will reply, "Don't you remember? I talked about this in Matthew chapter 25!" So far, the only reason I can think that you'd do this is because we will forget absolutely everything once we're ressurected, that way we won't remember all of our loved ones who's flesh is being burned for all eternity.

Or, are you going to remember this parable and say something else? If you say something else, you are not the sheep.

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Now we have four different characters in this parable. The sheep (animals), the goats (animals), a king (human), and the human king's human brothers.

Second question...

Who are the king's brothers? If you say other Christians, then this is a awful parable. Why would Yeshua use two different species, a sheep and a human, as a comparison to a single group of people?

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

If this parable doesn't make any sense to you, but you believe there is some way of reconciling the sheep to be Christians by not taking this parable literal....please explain why the "everlasting fire" suddenly becomes literal.

If you have a literal interpretation, please explain why God is going to burn a bunch of goats. Thank you.

 

[daq]

Matthew 12:46-49
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, your mother and your brethren stand without, desiring to speak with you.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

Yeshua stretched for his hand toward his talmidim:

And said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now therefore you have five on the right and five on the left:

Three against two and two against three, (Luke 12:51-53).

Like ten little virgins . . .
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[anonymouswho]

Matthew 12:46-49
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, your mother and your brethren stand without, desiring to speak with you.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

Yeshua stretched for his hand toward his talmidim:

And said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now therefore you have five on the right and five on the left:

Three against two and two against three, (Luke 12:51-53).

Like ten little virgins . . .
.
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Hello my friend and thank you for the reply. I think I understand what you're saying, but I may be wrong. Matthew 18:21-35....

Notice the goats did not attend to the king's needs, and after they ask "When?", He says...

"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of THESE, ye did it not to me."

"THESE"...are the sheep! And if THESE are the sheep, then the goats are....

 

[ewq1938]

Matthew 12:46-49
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, your mother and your brethren stand without, desiring to speak with you.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

Yeshua stretched for his hand toward his talmidim:

He was pointing not showing his open palm.

 

[anonymouswho]

He was pointing not showing his open palm.

Hello. Would you care to explain how you interpret the parable of the sheep and goats? Thank you.

 

[ewq1938]

Hello. Would you care to explain how you interpret the parable of the sheep and goats? Thank you.

Sheep are the saved, goats are the unsaved.

 

[anonymouswho]

Sheep are the saved, goats are the unsaved.

Thank you. Would you consider yourself a sheep?

 

[ewq1938]

Thank you. Would you consider yourself a sheep?

I think most do, even the goats. God will be the one to decide though.

 

[anonymouswho]

Ha! I agree. How will you respond when Jesus returns to give you your eternal reward? Will you forget this parable and ask him "When?"...

Or will you remember and say something else?

 

[ewq1938]

Ha! I agree. How will you respond when Jesus returns to give you your eternal reward? Will you forget this parable and ask him "When?"...

Or will you remember and say something else?

I'm going to keep my mouth shut I think.

 

[anonymouswho]

I'm going to keep my mouth shut I think.

Thank you for talking to me. Psalm 107:42....be glad my friend, Yeshua has overcome the world!

 

[daq]

He was pointing not showing his open palm.

You were there? Funny how Yeshua speaks of a mother and four brethren, (he has four brothers in the Gospel accounts), and how I quoted his words from other passages clearly speaking of digits, which are typically five fingers on a hand when the thumb is included, and yet with all this there are those who still see nothing more than an open palm. How then would it be possible to explain the three ribs that are between the teeth as in Daniel and like a three-pronged mazleg flesh hook in Samuel? Sorry, I suppose it is just another case of completely different mindsets. But those who know the Testimony of Yeshua see these things as so simple that even a child can understand the allegories, (because the child has not yet been trained in religionistic thinking)
.
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[daq]

Hello my friend and thank you for the reply. I think I understand what you're saying, but I may be wrong. Matthew 18:21-35....

Notice the goats did not attend to the king's needs, and after they ask "When?", He says...

"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of THESE, ye did it not to me."

"THESE"...are the sheep! And if THESE are the sheep, then the goats are....

Its been a while, good to see you around, friend.

If your right hand offends you cut it off and cast it from you: then you will not have to worry about the five foolish virgins. Anyone who says of himself, "I'm one of the wise virgins", does not understand the allegory or the Testimony of Yeshua. Elohim wants to see body parts in Gehenna where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die. Thank goodness Elohim sent His Son to explain to us that these are supernal in meaning. Chop, chop! Fear not Yaakob, you worm. You cannot kill Yaakob, but the fire can surely purge the dross, (for Yeshua came to save the lost sheep of the house of Yisrael).
.
.

 

[anonymouswho]

Its been a while, good to see you around, friend.

If your right hand offends you cut it off and cast it from you: then you will not have to worry about the five foolish virgins. Anyone who says of himself, "I'm one of the wise virgins", does not understand the allegory or the Testimony of Yeshua. Elohim wants to see body parts in Gehenna where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die. Thank goodness Elohim sent His Son to explain to us that these are supernal in meaning. Chop, chop! Fear not Yaakob, you worm. You cannot kill Yaakob, but the fire can surely purge the dross, (for Yeshua came to save the lost sheep of the house of Yisrael).
.
.

Its good to hear from you as well. There were just several things I needed to think about, and our last conversation was a tremendous help to me.

Cutting off our right hand is what I thought you were talking about...but I may have been over-thinking it. The Christians want the sheep and the goats to be people, and they want the goats to have their flesh burned in fire. So I was thinking the right hand is the king's servant (right hand guy and goat), and the left hand is the fellowservant (sheep). Therefore, they still get people being cast into a fire, it's just not the people they're expecting.

As far as everything you wrote here...I agree 100%. I am a gentile, and I recognize that God has shown me mercy that I might fellowship with His people. Would it be okay if I send you a private message with some questions about Paul? Thank you.

 

[redleghunter]

Hello everyone. Thank you for reading my thread. I wanted to discuss Matthew 25:31-46.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

The most common interpretation is that Yeshua is talking about Christians when he says sheep, and he is talking about unbelievers when he says goats. This is considered one of the strongest verses that proves God is going to send billions of people to have their flesh burned in hell forever and ever (because one forever is not near long enough)

I'm not saying this interpretation is impossible, because everyone knows "God is outside the bounds of logic and reality" or whatever...but I do believe this is highly unlikely.

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous (sheep) answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?"

In this part, Yeshua is telling the sheep (which are animals) that when he was hungry, thirsty, sick ect... they attended to his needs. The sheep then reply "When?"

First question...

When the King tells you, a Christian and disciple of Jesus (who has this parable in your English bible), that when he was hungry you fed him, what are you going to say?

Are you going to ask "When?"....to which Jesus will reply, "Don't you remember? I talked about this in Matthew chapter 25!" So far, the only reason I can think that you'd do this is because we will forget absolutely everything once we're ressurected, that way we won't remember all of our loved ones who's flesh is being burned for all eternity.

Or, are you going to remember this parable and say something else? If you say something else, you are not the sheep.

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Now we have four different characters in this parable. The sheep (animals), the goats (animals), a king (human), and the human king's human brothers.

Second question...

Who are the king's brothers? If you say other Christians, then this is a awful parable. Why would Yeshua use two different species, a sheep and a human, as a comparison to a single group of people?

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

If this parable doesn't make any sense to you, but you believe there is some way of reconciling the sheep to be Christians by not taking this parable literal....please explain why the "everlasting fire" suddenly becomes literal.

If you have a literal interpretation, please explain why God is going to burn a bunch of goats. Thank you.

Metaphors, both direct and indirect are used in the parables of Jesus Christ. That should clear up a bit.

Jesus established in previous parables that He was the Shepherd and those who follow and hear His voice are His sheep. The Greek for those who follow Christ is Ekklesia. No one at the time of the parable of Matthew 25 knew what a Christian 'was' but they did know from TaNaKh what Ekklesia (or ecclesia) meant. Also in Hebrew as qahal or assembly

 

[daq]

Its good to hear from you as well. There were just several things I needed to think about, and our last conversation was a tremendous help to me.

Cutting off our right hand is what I thought you were talking about...but I may have been over-thinking it. The Christians want the sheep and the goats to be people, and they want the goats to have their flesh burned in fire. So I was thinking the right hand is the king's servant (right hand guy and goat), and the left hand is the fellowservant (sheep). Therefore, they still get people being cast into a fire, it's just not the people they're expecting.

As far as everything you wrote here...I agree 100%. I am a gentile, and I recognize that God has shown me mercy that I might fellowship with His people. Would it be okay if I send you a private message with some questions about Paul? Thank you.

Yes, sure you can email me.

Remember also that Mark 9:42-50 quotes from Isaiah 66:24 and moreover the same Prophet writes, "Fear not, you worm Yaakob, and you men of Yisrael; I will help you, says YHWH, and your Redeemer the Holy One Yisrael", (Isaiah 41:14). And if you look up Isaiah 66:24 in the Septuagint Greek version you will find this concerning the carcasses or body parts:

Isaiah 66:24 LXX (Old Greek)
24 και εξελευσονται και οψονται τα κωλα των ανθρωπων των παραβεβηκοτων εν εμοι ο γαρ σκωληξ αυτων ου τελευτησει και το πυρ αυτων ου σβεσθησεται και εσονται εις ορασιν παση σαρκι

κωλα, (a plural form of G2966 κωλον), are not actually full body "carcasses", (as rendered in the Brenton Septuagint Translation), but rather more precisely "limbs of the body, (as if lopped off)". This is clearly what Yeshua is speaking of when he quotes from Isaiah 66:24 in Mark 9:42-50. Therefore it is all an allegory for cutting off sin in our own "households" and "members" of our own households, ("the enemies of a man shall be those of his own household", Matthew 10:35-36 quoting from Micah 7:5-6 which is referencing Deuteronomy 13:6-8). The body is the house-temple, which is no more our own when we enter into Yeshua faithfulness; and the eyes, hands, feet, and the tongue, that "little member" which ignites the fire of Gehenna, those are all "members" of our own "households" in the allegory, (Yeshua also calls them "little ones" and often uses children to symbolize them, even Lazarus is a "little one", Luke 17:1-2, which is the whole "punch line" of the parable having now been separated into the previous chapter). Those who do evil deeds are likened to those which have allowed their own households with the members thereof to have been given over to "evil shepherds", (the same is the prophetic allegory found in Zechariah 11:8-17), which evil shepherds then begin to abuse those members of the house while house-Master is as if "away in a far journey", (Mark 13:34-37, Matthew 24:42-51). Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his Master has made ruler over his household, to give them nourishment in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his Master when he comes shall find so doing. Verily I say to you that he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
.
.

 

[redleghunter]

Ha! I agree. How will you respond when Jesus returns to give you your eternal reward? Will you forget this parable and ask him "When?"...

Or will you remember and say something else?

I believe we will all remember Christ's gift of salvation. We will be contrite and say "I do not deserve your Grace, I do not deserve reward. You did it all and all Glory and Honor belong to you my Lord and Savior. Here the crown you have given to me I gladly place at your pierced feet and let me kiss the pierced hands which you stretched out for me. My reward is seeing You Jesus Christ crowned with Glory and to be in Your presence for eternity."

 

[anonymouswho]

Yes, sure you can email me.

Remember also that Mark 9:42-50 quotes from Isaiah 66:24 and moreover the same Prophet writes, "Fear not, you worm Yaakob, and you men of Yisrael; I will help you, says YHWH, and your Redeemer the Holy One Yisrael", (Isaiah 41:14). And if you look up Isaiah 66:24 in the Septuagint Greek version you will find this concerning the carcasses or body parts:

Isaiah 66:24 LXX (Old Greek)
24 και εξελευσονται και οψονται τα κωλα των ανθρωπων των παραβεβηκοτων εν εμοι ο γαρ σκωληξ αυτων ου τελευτησει και το πυρ αυτων ου σβεσθησεται και εσονται εις ορασιν παση σαρκι

κωλα, (a plural form of G2966 κωλον), are not actually full body "carcasses", (as rendered in the Brenton Septuagint Translation), but rather more precisely "limbs of the body, (as if lopped off)". This is clearly what Yeshua is speaking of when he quotes from Isaiah 66:24 in Mark 9:42-50. Therefore it is all an allegory for cutting off sin in our own "households" and "members" of our own households, ("the enemies of a man shall be those of his own household", Matthew 10:35-36 quoting from Micah 7:5-6 which is referencing Deuteronomy 13:6-8). The body is the house-temple, which is no more our own when we enter into Yeshua faithfulness; and the eyes, hands, feet, and the tongue, that "little member" which ignites the fire of Gehenna, those are all "members" of our own "households" in the allegory, (Yeshua also calls them "little ones" and often uses children to symbolize them, even Lazarus is a "little one", Luke 17:1-2, which is the whole "punch line" of the parable having now been separated into the previous chapter). Those who do evil deeds are likened to those which have allowed their own households with the members thereof to have been given over to "evil shepherds", (the same is the prophetic allegory found in Zechariah 11:8-17), which evil shepherds then begin to abuse those members of the house while house-Master is as if "away in a far journey", (Mark 13:34-37, Matthew 24:42-51). Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his Master has made ruler over his household, to give them nourishment in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his Master when he comes shall find so doing. Verily I say to you that he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
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That's awesome. I did not know that about Isaiah 66. I agree, nothing about Yeshua's parable's have anything to do with people being thrown into a fire.

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
So shall it be at the end of the world (aion: age of a man): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked (πονηροὺς: evil) from (ἐκ: out from) among (μέσου: the middle) OF the just (Greek is in the genitive),
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:47

Great, I will write you soon. Thank you very much.

 

[daq]

That's awesome. I did not know that about Isaiah 66. I agree, nothing about Yeshua's parable's have anything to do with people being thrown into a fire.

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
So shall it be at the end of the world (aion: age of a man): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked (πονηροὺς: evil) from (ἐκ: out from) among (μέσου: the middle) OF the just (Greek is in the genitive),
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:47

Great, I will write you soon. Thank you very much.

Yep, αιωνιον fire is prepared for the devil, (Azazel), and his angels, (goats).
Not for literal people . . .
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[anonymouswho]

Metaphors, both direct and indirect are used in the parables of Jesus Christ. That should clear up a bit.

Hello, and thanks for replying. Are you saying that sometimes in a parable, Yeshua is being metaphorical, and in other parts of the same parable, he is being literal? I'm sorry, I don't know if I understand you correctly.

Jesus established in previous parables that He was the Shepherd and those who follow and hear His voice are His sheep. The Greek for those who follow Christ is Ekklesia. No one at the time of the parable of Matthew 25 knew what a Christian 'was' but they did know from TaNaKh what Ekklesia (or ecclesia) meant. Also in Hebrew as qahal or assembly

Yes, but Yeshua says...

"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:14

His sheep know him, but the sheep in Matthew 25 do not know him. He has other sheep, and they shall hear his voice. When? Yeshua was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. We as Gentiles have been given opportunity to have fellowship with God's people (1 John 1:3).

I believe we will all remember Christ's gift of salvation. We will be contrite and say "I do not deserve your Grace, I do not deserve reward. You did it all and all Glory and Honor belong to you my Lord and Savior. Here the crown you have given to me I gladly place at your pierced feet and let me kiss the pierced hands which you stretched out for me. My reward is seeing You Jesus Christ crowned with Glory and to be in Your presence for eternity."

When Jesus tells you "When I was hungry, you fed me, when I was thirsty, you gave me something to drink", ect...this is how you will reply? I don't meant to be so blunt, but this is not what the parable says at all.

Thank you.