Matter of Heaven

dad

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I assumed the New Jerusalem was the Kingdom of Heaven, an earthly kingdom where Jesus reigns...am I wrong? Why would there be an distinction between the second heaven and Jerusalem
WEll, it only comes as the new heavens are revealed, not in the PO earth. It is the forever capitol of God Himself, so I think of it as heaven, though it will land on the new earth. Couldn't get much more like His kingdom than His home.

A place where we can fly, even the horses can fly

Any scriptures for this?
One that comes to mind is where we come down from heaven, on white horses, with Jesus in the lead to conquer this world! It's in Revelations, I think it was 19, I could look it up if you have trouble.


I doubt you know what you are talking about.

But do you know what you are talking about?

You have a book that claims all these miraculous things will happenbut nothing to support these assumptions,
You have books that claim miraculous thingslike the whole universe in a tiny less than thimble sized sweet nothing soup, based solely on assumptions! That happens to oppose the bible as well.
you have not one shred of evidence that Heaven is real, and those events will take place.
Heaven is well known, and some have dreamed of it, seen it in visions, died, and came back to tell about it, and rose from the dead, telling us what it was like. It has a lot of basis, unlike your claims which all rest on assumption that the past and future are the same!
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Yes the devils are cast down here, by Michael, and the forces of heaven, not like they wouldcome on their own accord.
In other places, it talks of stars being darkened, etc, which leads me to think that we will see a third of the physical stars fall out of the veiw of man as well. Not to earth, of course, it is amusing you chose to misunderstand this, But that is your problem.
The verse says a thrid part of the stars will be cast onto the earth. It is amusing that you can't tell the word stars from the word devils. 6:13 also says that stars fell onto the earth. Stars not devils.


You are fading here. Sometimes I wonder how I took anything you said with much seriousness.
Maybe because I have totally refuted your nonsense so many times on so many threads.

The bible is based on the Hebrew, as well as the sacred early Christian era material.
I asked about revelations and not the Bible as a whole.


Of course it is, but also a spiritual exposition which is out of the shortsightedness of only natural minded men.
So you are claiming thst about 6x10^20 stars will actually be cast unto the earth by a dragons tail after the stars of heaven have already fallen to earth like figs from a tree? And after that this city of transparent gold will come floating down.
I would learn some manners in regards to sacred beliefs and customs of others. Do you make fun of those little Jewish caps as well? What about turbans? Guess hate crimes are tolerated here, as long as it is against Christian core beliefs, Jesus, and God.
You can expect many people to make fun of any ideas as goofy as those in the OP of this thread or some of your other gems like "no gravity before the flood" and the sun rotated around the earth before the split and so on and on and on.

The city is well known, commonly called heaven, and the hope of all ages for Christians, who are not at home in this world, just passing through like pilgrims and strangers, That city is our home.
Belief in heaven is one thing. Fantasies like your OP are another. Why do think people are asking what drugs you have been taking?

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dad

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The verse says a thrid part of the stars will be cast onto the earth. It is amusing that you can't tell the word stars from the word devils. 6:13 also says that stars fell onto the earth. Stars not devils.
Jesus is the bright and morning star, and stars do have a connection to spirits. Some feel it represents the territory or jurisdiction, etc of the angel. Otherd have other ideas. But in this case, the dragon has a third of the angels cast down with him to earth. It could be about the same time that stars fall out of our view, and connected somehow. But the actual stars will not be cast to earth, the spirits refered to will. Sounds like you don't understand the spiritual aspects of the bible, and think it must be literal, and physical, which is dead wrong. Also sounds like you don't really want to know. AS I said, you would need God's help, and to be spiritually minded. No other way there, it is locked to the understanding of the natural only mind



Maybe because I have totally refuted your nonsense so many times on so many threads.
Ha. Starting to sound pitiful in the empty little victory claims, when you have only recited uniformitarian beliefs. Like in this thread, the topic is the future, and state of heaven, and you have come up empty as to showing us the future will be the same as now.
So, what's left? You try to cast aspersions on me, and the bible. Too bad you have no case.

I asked about revelations and not the Bible as a whole.
John was His friend, and a witness of the things in the gospels, as well as the reputed author of Revelations, that is the man that penned the revelation OF Jesus Christ, as it says it actually is.


So you are claiming thst about 6x10^20 stars will actually be cast unto the earth by a dragons tail after the stars of heaven have already fallen to earth like figs from a tree?
No, the rebels that are cast out with the devil come to earth. If stars fall, coincedentally about a third it says in ANOTHR place in the bible, they will not fall on little old earth. That is insultingly ridiculous, and not at all what the nbible says.

And after that this city of transparent gold will come floating down.

That is more certain than the law of gravity!!! An intersesting point, is that this future state matter does float as needed. We can look for more evidences of this, and find them.
Miracles on earth are a touch of the devine, or spiritual. When the spiritual is added, Jesus walked on water! In another place, we see an ax floated on water. Elsewhere, we see that manna seemed to still be good, in the Ark of the Covenant I think it was a something like few hundred years later! We saw that the adding of the spiritual gives healings, even raised some from the dead!!! These are properties of matter in heaven as well, and a taste of what it will be like. We saw flying chariots (saucers?) carry off Elijah to heaven, and one guy walk so far with God, he simply was no more here, he was there. We saw some find themselves on the other side of a sea in no time at all. These are powers we will have, and traits of the new reality to come. The bible is full of miracles. Consider them clues.



You can expect many people to make fun of any ideas as goofy as those in the OP of this thread
That is fine, but they can't do so in a biblical way, because the city is coming, we know what it is made of, and how big it is, who lives there as well. We also know that this universe, importantly, and it's current state is temporary. No present based laws can apply there, that will burn out the sun, etc etc etc.

or some of your other gems like "no gravity before the flood" and the sun rotated around the earth before the split and so on and on and on.
No gravity will exist as we know it in the future at least. Look at the size of that thing 1500 miles long, wide, and high! Coming down to earth. As for the sun rotating where, I have no idea at all. I can say it wuill be here however. Also, that we are the center of the universe as will then be apparent, regardless of whether we have a similar orbit order in our solar system.
 
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dad

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This has to be one of the strangest OP's I have seen in a long time
What is the point?
To illustrate that matter in heaven is not the same as matter here, according to the bible. It is eternal, and not in decay, and different. Also, it is clear that science has absolutely nothing that could begin to challenge that reality. All they could do is cling to a uniformitarian belief, with not a shred of evidence.
Therefore, as far as all science can go, and all evidence, the future state is simply not known at the present at all. As far as the bible goes, this temporary heavens will be no more.
And that is a very important concept to keep in mind in the creation debate, that has old agers falling on the uniformitarian belief as a foundational assumption.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Jesus is the bright and morning star, and stars do have a connection to spirits. Some feel it represents the territory or jurisdiction, etc of the angel. Otherd have other ideas. But in this case, the dragon has a third of the angels cast down with him to earth. It could be about the same time that stars fall out of our view, and connected somehow. But the actual stars will not be cast to earth, the spirits refered to will. Sounds like you don't understand the spiritual aspects of the bible, and think it must be literal, and physical, which is dead wrong. Also sounds like you don't really want to know. AS I said, you would need God's help, and to be spiritually minded. No other way there, it is locked to the understanding of the natural only mind
The verses say stars. Twist it all you but you are leaving the literal behind as you must.

Ha. Starting to sound pitiful in the empty little victory claims, when you have only recited uniformitarian beliefs. Like in this thread, the topic is the future, and state of heaven, and you have come up empty as to showing us the future will be the same as now.
So, what's left? You try to cast aspersions on me, and the bible. Too bad you have no case.
Everyone who reads the threads can see how you failed totally even though you twist your myth this way and that and wave your hands around so desperately.

John was His friend, and a witness of the things in the gospels, as well as the reputed author of Revelations, that is the man that penned the revelation OF Jesus Christ, as it says it actually is.
As it typical of you, you state this as fact even though the author of Revelation is disputed by Biblical scholars.

No, the rebels that are cast out with the devil come to earth. If stars fall, coincedentally about a third it says in ANOTHR place in the bible, they will not fall on little old earth. That is insultingly ridiculous, and not at all what the nbible says.
Really. I thought it said,

6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Here he is talking about the sun, the moon and the stars, not devils.

and then it says.
12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

It doesn't say anything about devils, only stars.

That is more certain than the law of gravity!!! An intersesting point, is that this future state matter does float as needed. We can look for more evidences of this, and find them.
Miracles on earth are a touch of the devine, or spiritual. When the spiritual is added, Jesus walked on water! In another place, we see an ax floated on water. Elsewhere, we see that manna seemed to still be good, in the Ark of the Covenant I think it was a something like few hundred years later! We saw that the adding of the spiritual gives healings, even raised some from the dead!!! These are properties of matter in heaven as well, and a taste of what it will be like. We saw flying chariots (saucers?) carry off Elijah to heaven, and one guy walk so far with God, he simply was no more here, he was there. We saw some find themselves on the other side of a sea in no time at all. These are powers we will have, and traits of the new reality to come. The bible is full of miracles. Consider them clues.
We didn't see any of these things. The only evidence that any of them ever happened is in the Bible.

That is fine, but they can't do so in a biblical way, because the city is coming, we know what it is made of, and how big it is, who lives there as well. We also know that this universe, importantly, and it's current state is temporary. No present based laws can apply there, that will burn out the sun, etc etc etc.
Only if you take Revelation literally which also means accepting that stars will fall to earth like figs from a tree and that about 7 x 10^20 stars will be cast to the earth by a dragons tail.

No gravity will exist as we know it in the future at least. Look at the size of that thing 1500 miles long, wide, and high! Coming down to earth. As for the sun rotating where, I have no idea at all. I can say it wuill be here however. Also, that we are the center of the universe as will then be apparent, regardless of whether we have a similar orbit order in our solar system.
You may wonder why people ask you what hallucinogens you are taking but I don't wonder at all.

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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Yes, but it has nothing to do with C and E

Dad-hoc thinks that because the Book of Revelation says the future will be different he can make up any kind of bizarro nonsense he wants to about a "different past" in order to try and explain why a 6,000 year old earth that had a global flood 4,500 years ago looks exactly like a 4.5 billion year old earth that didn't have a recent global flood according to every aspect of science. It doesn't really work but he tries really hard and has convinced himself, but no one else, that his delusions represent reality.

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dad

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The verses say stars. Twist it all you but you are leaving the literal behind as you must.

Mt 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mr 13:25 - And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. Lu 21:25 - And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Now, here we do see signs in the heavens involving stars. As I pointed out, other places stars refer to spirits. That is simply the facts. The dragon is clearly the devil, and that is actually stated in Revelation. The 'stars' cast out to earth with him are spirits. I also pointed out that Jesus was even referred to as the Morning Star. Now, feast you eyes on this, and consider the matter settled. Re 1:20 - The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Everyone who reads the threads can see how you failed totally even though you twist your myth this way and that and wave your hands around so desperately.
Sorry, I take you out every time on bible ground, and science cannot address the state of the future, except in uniformitarian BELIEF!!!! You have to admit that, there is no choice.

As it typical of you, you state this as fact even though the author of Revelation is disputed by Biblical scholars.
I call someone a reputed author, and you lay this little doggie bag at my feet?

and then it says.
12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

It doesn't say anything about devils, only stars.
Already dealt with.

We didn't see any of these things. The only evidence that any of them ever happened is in the Bible.
That is because you cannot see the future! Your science is way way to little and puny for that. But we can! And nothing science can say about it. Not a peep.

Only if you take Revelation literally which also means accepting that stars will fall to earth like figs from a tree and that about 7 x 10^20 stars will be cast to the earth by a dragons tail.
AS explained that is nonsense. The bible is not uniformitarian! It talks also of things spiritual. Real things, but spiritual as well as the physical, it does both. You can only perceive the natural, or physical bits, and think that the spiritual things are also like that, and when it proves to be not physically literal, of course at all, you try to dump on the whole thing.
I can tell you it is all true true true, and good as gold, tried in the fire, and tested, and purified, and it means what it says. It deals in physical and spiritual, and one simply HAS to be spiritually minded to understand it! No maybes. Humbly ask God, and He will save us, and open our eys. That is why it is likened to being born again. We are again born in the spirit, and start to have our spiritual eyes opened. Do we crawl back in the womb? No, that is a ridiculous, physical only based take on a spiritual truth. Much like you have tried on stars.
 
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dad

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Nothing dad writes has anything to do with C and E. Perhaps a mod could move this over to the psychology forum?
No, the evolving future state of our heavens is germain to the issue of where we came from. [evolving, in that it will be changed by God, of course] Because it illustrates the uniformitarian claims and assumptions that science deals with about the past and future.
It shows the bible tells of a matter in heaven that is very different. It exposes the claims of science that the sun will burn out, and our galaxy will crash, etc etc. as pure prophesy based only on this temporary state.
It touches on the very nerve of the core of the debate, and does so in a way that Christians cannot lose, and science is left dangling, and shown for what it is. A present based knowledge only that is limited. Limited. Limited.
Perhaps a mod could caution some to actually make a relevant point?
 
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Nathan Poe

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No, the evolving future state of our heavens is germain to the issue of where we came from. [evolving, in that it will be changed by God, of course] Because it illustrates the uniformitarian claims and assumptions that science deals with about the past and future.

Which future state would that be? The flying transparant gold city, or the magical spiritual journeys all over the universe?

It shows the bible tells of a matter in heaven that is very different.

All you gotta do is climb the beanstalk...

It exposes the claims of science that the sun will burn out, and our galaxy will crash, etc etc. as pure prophesy based only on this temporary state.

Replaced with more pure prophecy based on wishful thinking.

It touches on the very nerve of the core of the debate, and does so in a way that Christians cannot lose, and science is left dangling, and shown for what it is. A present based knowledge only that is limited. Limited. Limited.

As opposed to your fantasy. Fantasy. Fantasy.

Perhaps a mod could caution some to actually make a relevant point?

Beginning with the OP.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Mt 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mr 13:25 - And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. Lu 21:25 - And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Now, here we do see signs in the heavens involving stars. As I pointed out, other places stars refer to spirits. That is simply the facts. The dragon is clearly the devil, and that is actually stated in Revelation. The 'stars' cast out to earth with him are spirits. I also pointed out that Jesus was even referred to as the Morning Star. Now, feast you eyes on this, and consider the matter settled. Re 1:20 - The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Only in your INTERPRETATION. The other verses say stars and say nothing about angels. If he meant angels there why didn't he explicity say angels? When he talks about the moon and the sun and the stars in R 6 it is pretty clear that he is talking about heavenly bodies and not angels.
Sorry, I take you out every time on bible ground, and science cannot address the state of the future, except in uniformitarian BELIEF!!!! You have to admit that, there is no choice.
One could postulate that something could change in the future. However, we have data showing uniformity of process in the past extending well before you supposed split that you have been unable to deal with. Even your constantly morphing myth fails to explain the scientific data from astronomy and geology no matter how you twist and turn. Further you now admit that not everything in the Bible means exactly what it says. You have lost. Get over it.
I call someone a reputed author, and you lay this little doggie bag at my feet?
Sorry. You did say reputed.

Already dealt with.

That is because you cannot see the future! Your science is way way to little and puny for that. But we can! And nothing science can say about it. Not a peep.

AS explained that is nonsense. The bible is not uniformitarian! It talks also of things spiritual. Real things, but spiritual as well as the physical, it does both. You can only perceive the natural, or physical bits, and think that the spiritual things are also like that, and when it proves to be not physically literal, of course at all, you try to dump on the whole thing.
No only those things that are patently ridiculous like stars falling to earth, a 6,000 year old universe, plants being created before the sun, rapid continent separation and most of the world's sedimentary geology forming in 1,600 years between creation and a global flood (or during of after in more standard YEC models) which left no evidence that it ever happened and of course all land life being descended from those who survived that flood on a big wooden boat that landed somewhere in the middle east.
I can tell you it is all true true true, and good as gold, tried in the fire, and tested, and purified, and it means what it says.
It says that stars will fall and also be cast to to earth but you claim it doesn't mean that.
It deals in physical and spiritual, and one simply HAS to be spiritually minded to understand it! No maybes. Humbly ask God, and He will save us, and open our eys. That is why it is likened to being born again. We are again born in the spirit, and start to have our spiritual eyes opened. Do we crawl back in the womb? No, that is a ridiculous, physical only based take on a spiritual truth. Much like you have tried on stars.
Yes, it is ridiculous to say that actual physical stars will fall to earth. It is also ridiculous to say that the earth was actually physically divided in the time of Peleg. Either would end life on earth. You admit that one clear literal reading of the verses is ridiculous while claiming that another reading that is actually not as clear must be interpreted as rapid continent separation and vast changes in the laws of physics. You require this to sustain your literal interpretation of other verses but since some verses are symbolic and not literal there is no need to distort all of science to try, even though you fail, to make observations of the world's geology agree with an unecessary literal interpretation.

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dad

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Only in your INTERPRETATION. The other verses say stars and say nothing about angels. If he meant angels there why didn't he explicity say angels?
Why does He say we must be born again? It talks of things spiritual as well, but can be interpreted. Not by the natural minded, however.

When he talks about the moon and the sun and the stars in R 6 it is pretty clear that he is talking about heavenly bodies and not angels.
I can see that it is indistinguishable in your mind. One clue is to look at context, and other passages in the bible.


One could postulate that something could change in the future.

One could postulate that something couldstay the same in the future.

However, we have data showing uniformity of process in the past extending well before you supposed split that you have been unable to deal with.
WEll that is another thread, but here we can see how your uniformitarian beliefs are both baseless and in conflict with the coming new heavens.


Further you now admit that not everything in the Bible means exactly what it says. You have lost. Get over it.
Sorry. You did say reputed.
It means what it says, but sometinmes refers to spiritual things. Things out of the fishbowl, if you will, of this physical only realm.

No only those things that are patently ridiculous like stars falling to earth,
I expect them to fall to earth, as the spirits referred to will. I also expect some cool star action fireworks like you never dreamed.


a 6,000 year old universe, plants being created before the sun,

Of course. That is bible 101.

rapid continent separation and most of the world's sedimentary geology forming in 1,600 years between creation and a global flood (or during of after in more standard YEC models) which left no evidence that it ever happened
Not the way you have thought it might be uniform.

and of course all land life being descended from those who survived that flood on a big wooden boat that landed somewhere in the middle east.

Rapid evolution was a neat creation trait pre split, of course.

... It is also ridiculous to say that the earth was actually physically divided in the time of Peleg.
Only if one blindly embraces past uniformity assumptiuons.

... but since some verses are symbolic and not literal there is no need to distort all of science to try, even though you fail, to make observations of the world's geology agree with an unecessary literal interpretation.
Science is diatorted when it looks out of the fishbowl of the present. It can't see the future, and the wonderful state of matter that the bible says will exist.

I kid you not.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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Why does He say we must be born again? It talks of things spiritual as well, but can be interpreted. Not by the natural minded, however.


I can see that it is indistinguishable in your mind. One clue is to look at context, and other passages in the bible.
Right. If you look at the context provided by Genesis 10:5 and 10:32 and conclude that the division in the time of Peleg was political and not a physical division of the earth. But then you only want to look at verses in context when the context doesn't conflict with your fantasy.


One could postulate that something couldstay the same in the future.
You could postulate that but you can look at data showing uniformity of process well back into the past.

WEll that is another thread, but here we can see how your uniformitarian beliefs are both baseless and in conflict with the coming new heavens.
Consistency of physical laws is accepted because it works to explain the data. As far as the coming new heavens I'll worry about them if they ever come. I figure they are about 2,000 years overdue so I don't expect them any time soon.

It means what it says, but sometinmes refers to spiritual things. Things out of the fishbowl, if you will, of this physical only realm.
Like stars falling to earth.

I expect them to fall to earth, as the spirits referred to will. I also expect some cool star action fireworks like you never dreamed.
I expect you will be disappointed.

Of course. That is bible 101.


Not the way you have thought it might be uniform.



Rapid evolution was a neat creation trait pre split, of course.
Rapid evolution is a pure YEC invention to get around obvious problems with too many animals on the ark. It is only a fantasy.

Only if one blindly embraces past uniformity assumptiuons.
The assumptions are substantiated with data you can't explain away.

Science is diatorted when it looks out of the fishbowl of the present. It can't see the future, and the wonderful state of matter that the bible says will exist.
But the bizarro fantasy past you have dreamed up is not consistent with either science or the Bible. I kid you not.

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