Masturbation is a mortal sin.

[DustinM]

You are right that the problem is that Onan used his brother's wife for his own pleasure and also distorted to act itself (deliberately excluding procreation).

Masturbation is basically a person using him/herself for pleasure. God created sex for us to give love to our spouses. Eph 5 describes how husbands must love their wives as Christ loves the Church. Well, Christ gave His whole Self for us on the Cross. So to imitate this love in marriage and sex, we must be giving our whole selves to our spouse. This is a beautiful gift of God, to love as He loves. In masturbation a person does not give him/herself away totally to a spouse, but rather turns in on him/herself. Using him/herself and distorting the act. Exactly what Onan was killed for.

One reason that masturbation is not spelled out in the Bible in a way that many people would like, is because the people who were reading the Bible as it was written were not reading it in isolation. The word fornication is in there a fair bit, but there is no clear definition of what constitutes fornication. This is because, if someone is unsure about what is fornication they are meant to turn to a leader in their church (maybe a priest, or a bishop) to ask. And at the same time as people would read or hear the Bible, they would hear preaching from the Church. We can see that this was the intended model from 1Tim 3. Oral preaching and Holy Tradition was the norm, the Scriptures (esp the New Testament) were a supplement to that.

So the bible spells out all the things that are considered sexually immoral but leaves out the most common one? The logical deduction from that is that masturbation is not wrong.

Maybe God doesn't think of it as sex.

You mention giving our whole selves to our spouse and that masturbation ruins that. How? First off, I'm not married, so how would that apply to me? Second off, what about the cases where masturbation has increased the joy of sex for married couples?

If you are wondering what I am talking about, see this quote from someone posting in the theology of the body forum:
Doolin:
“I have had troubles like Buddygirl described and can give some perspective from the man's side. I have been married for 15 years and always used NFP and we were even NFP teachers for some time. I always suffered from the same "finishing too early". My wife is not shy and let me know she wasn't too pleased with the situation. This went on for man years and she insisted I do something, go to the doctor, anything.

I maintained that I didn't have a problem, it is just a simple matter of frequency. With NFP and a growing family and busy life the frequency of intercourse is 1-2 times a month and at this is the root cause of my trouble. Of course she didn't like my proposed solution which was to increase the frequency.

Now with 5 kids and a 10 month old baby her desire is very low and the frequency of sex is even lower. If we do attempt it I suffer even worse from short duration and she is de-motivated to try even more.

After doing this for about 6 months I fell prey to the sin of touching yourself. It just so happened that she had some interest on the same day I sinned and my duration was very long - she was shocked and we had one of the greatest experiences of our married life.

Now I'm completely stuck. I know the Church teaching and that I sinned. I also know that if I do nothing and just have intercourse once every few months she will be greatly disappointed and let me know it and try to send me to the doctor.

I sometimes wonder why God made me like this - if I follow his plan it seems to lead to a result that is disappointing for both of us.”

So the logical thing would be for them to simply have sex more often! But his wife isn't going to be able to turn on her hormones like a light switch.

There are several solutions to the problem that don't involve sin. (Mostly relating to making the act more enjoyable for the woman so that she literally wants to more.) But some people just don't care to do that sort of thing, even when one spouse suggests it.

 

[Dream]

You just quoted a bunch from the Catechism. I'm looking for why it was written that way. Where in the bible did Catholics derive their masturbation stance in writing the Catechism?

Also, when you speak of lust, I am a little confused. Are you saying that it IS a mortal sin to have sexual thoughts (without truly desiring those thoughts to come true)? Because that is NOT lust. Not as it is defined as extreme desire (in the least), and desire with intent (how it's generally thought of).

Lust is when you fantasize and want that fantasy to come true, and under the conditions of intense desire. (The desire for one's own spouse doesn't count.)

Fantasies by themselves, where one says "I'm going to imagine this because it's fun to imagine it...but I don't want it to actually come true" is not lust. It may be a sin, but it's not a mortal sin.

It seems, however, that Catholics define lust to also mean any sexual thoughts, which doesn't seem to be what Jesus meant.

So I still am desiring to know why Catholics look at masturbation and sexual thoughts the way they do. Another way of asking this is: Where did Catholics derive their more specific definitions from? (Because it's not directly from the Bible, as far as I can tell). Where did they get their specific "big picture" as you say?

In talking about lust, Jesus says that if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off. If He isn't referring to masturbation, then what the heck is he talking about here? What other sin does one commits with his right hand that fits into the context of lust?

Mat 5:27-32 You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart. And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than thy whole body be cast into hell. And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body go into hell. And it hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce. But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

 

[DustinM]

In talking about lust, Jesus says that if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off. If He isn't referring to masturbation, then what the heck is he talking about here? What other sin does one commits with his right hand that fits into the context of lust?

Mat 5:27-32 You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart. And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than thy whole body be cast into hell. And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body go into hell. And it hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce. But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

I can sin with my right hand by punching someone in the face in anger.

What you just used is a logic loop. If your right hand causes you to sin (keep in mind as he says this, masturbation is not defined as sin yet), then cut it off. Therefore masturbation is a sin.

Doesn't fly, sorry.

EDIT: In that whole paragraph, Jesus keeps mentioning non-solo sexual acts (with the exception of looking with lust). There are lots of non-solo sexual things one can do with a hand. A simple example: A man smacking a woman on the butt at a night club. This example goes right along with looking with lust, and fits in with the rest of the paragraph. So why jump to the conclusion that masturbation is what he is talking about. Other things make more sense.

 

[Dream]

I can sin with my right hand by punching someone in the face in anger.

What you just used is a logic loop. If your right hand causes you to sin (keep in mind as he says this, masturbation is not defined as sin yet), then cut it off. Therefore masturbation is a sin.

Doesn't fly, sorry.

Huh? Jesus is talking about lust, and then says that if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off. Then He goes on to talk about divorce. To say that one's right hand sinning is referring to punching somebody is completely out of context.

In this part of His sermon, Jesus begins each section with "You have heard that it was said...", so let's look about what He talks about in this section:

-Adultery
-Lust
-Eye causing one to sin (looking with lust)
-Hand causing one to sin
-Divorce
-Fornication

Then the section ends. Everything here is talking about sexual sins. Why would He randomly throw something in the middle about punching somebody out of anger?

 

[Assisi]

So the bible spells out all the things that are considered sexually immoral but leaves out the most common one? The logical deduction from that is that masturbation is not wrong.

This is the problem with relying on the Bible alone (an idea which is not Biblical). Some people will see one thing clear as day, and others will see the opposite clear as day. The Bible describes the Church as being the authority to which we should look for spiritual guidance. In Acts 8 we see that the eunuch could not understand all of the Scriptures without someone to explain it to him. In 1 Tim 3:15 we see that the Church, not the Bible is the foundation of truth. Fornication is condemned in the Scriptures, how do we know whether masturbation was included in this word or not? The Church tells us that it is.

Maybe God doesn't think of it as sex.

I'm sure He doesn't, it is nothing like what He designed sex to be - holy. It is a disordered use of sexual pleasure.

You mention giving our whole selves to our spouse and that masturbation ruins that. How? First off, I'm not married, so how would that apply to me?

What do sex, sexuality and sexual pleasure mean theologically, spiritually? It is a means of loving someone else. In masturbation, a person can only love him/herself. It turns the person (whether married or single) in towards themselves rather than giving to others. The act becomes about taking (sexual pleasure) rather than giving. Is this how Christ loves us? No.

Second off, what about the cases where masturbation has increased the joy of sex for married couples?

No one ever said holiness was easy.

 

[Assisi]

I can sin with my right hand by punching someone in the face in anger.

What you just used is a logic loop. If your right hand causes you to sin (keep in mind as he says this, masturbation is not defined as sin yet), then cut it off. Therefore masturbation is a sin.

Doesn't fly, sorry.

EDIT: In that whole paragraph, Jesus keeps mentioning non-solo sexual acts (with the exception of looking with lust). There are lots of non-solo sexual things one can do with a hand. A simple example: A man smacking a woman on the butt at a night club. This example goes right along with looking with lust, and fits in with the rest of the paragraph. So why jump to the conclusion that masturbation is what he is talking about. Other things make more sense.

Context!
Jesus is talking about sexual sins.

 

[DustinM]

This is the problem with relying on the Bible alone (an idea which is not Biblical). Some people will see one thing clear as day, and others will see the opposite clear as day. The Bible describes the Church as being the authority to which we should look for spiritual guidance. In Acts 8 we see that the eunuch could not understand all of the Scriptures without someone to explain it to him. In 1 Tim 3:15 we see that the Church, not the Bible is the foundation of truth. Fornication is condemned in the Scriptures, how do we know whether masturbation was included in this word or not? The Church tells us that it is.

Yes, the Church tells us it is. WHY? is my question. WHERE did the Church deduce this very specific information from? I am a Christian desiring to be a Catholic, but I will have large difficulties doing so with so many questions.

So if the Church is the foundation of truth, then where are they getting this specific set of truths (about masturbation and lust) from?

I'm sure He doesn't, it is nothing like what He designed sex to be - holy. It is a disordered use of sexual pleasure.

Okay, from my perspective, it is NOT PROVEN that masturbation is a sin. It is NOT PROVEN that it is disordered. So since it is not mentioned anywhere in the bible, and leaves me feeling quite fulfilled, then I could say that God intended masturbation to be an enjoyable non-sex act.

So far all I am hearing is misquoted things from the Bible, and because the Church said so.

What do sex, sexuality and sexual pleasure mean theologically, spiritually? It is a means of loving someone else. In masturbation, a person can only love him/herself. It turns the person (whether married or single) in towards themselves rather than giving to others. The act becomes about taking (sexual pleasure) rather than giving. Is this how Christ loves us? No.

nd what if someone feels closer to God, and love God more because he/she feels that masturbation is a gift from God? There goes your whole "only loving oneself" argument.

No one ever said holiness was easy.

So you think that couple is supposed to just be unhappy sexually? That's not love either. Having it be just some thing you do once or twice a month, and it's not enjoyable? That's letting the devil win in a whole new way.

 

[DustinM]

Context!
Jesus is talking about sexual sins.

Do you know what a logic loophole is? If masturbation is not defined as a sin before Jesus makes that statement about your hand making you sin, then you don't know if the "sin" he mentions is really masturbation. It could be any number of things.

The context is about a person sinning lustfully in regards to another person.

There are many sexual things someone can do to another person with their hand. Just reaching out and grabbing another person sexually is something that happens frequently at night clubs, etc, and actually fits the context much better.

The context indicates something other than masturbation.

Pretty much everything I already said (in what you just quoted), I'm having to re-state.

 

[DustinM]

Huh? Jesus is talking about lust, and then says that if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off. Then He goes on to talk about divorce. To say that one's right hand sinning is referring to punching somebody is completely out of context.

In this part of His sermon, Jesus begins each section with "You have heard that it was said...", so let's look about what He talks about in this section:

-Adultery
-Lust
-Eye causing one to sin (looking with lust)
-Hand causing one to sin
-Divorce
-Fornication

Then the section ends. Everything here is talking about sexual sins. Why would He randomly throw something in the middle about punching somebody out of anger?

Please refer to my edit. There are many things that a person can do sexually with their hand that fit the context better than masturbation.

 

[colleen]

I just want to let all the guys trying to live up to the church's teaching that I praying for you. May God give you the strength to be chaste and pure in a world where even Christians reject the truth.

 

[Dream]

Do you know what a logic loophole is? If masturbation is not defined as a sin before Jesus makes that statement about your hand making you sin, then you don't know if the "sin" he mentions is really masturbation. It could be any number of things.

The context is about a person sinning lustfully in regards to another person.

There are many sexual things someone can do to another person with their hand. Just reaching out and grabbing another person sexually is something that happens frequently at night clubs, etc, and actually fits the context much better.

The context indicates something other than masturbation.

Pretty much everything I already said (in what you just quoted), I'm having to re-state.

I think it's pretty clear what Jesus is saying here, and others feel the same way. Obviously, you do not interpret this passage the same way; thus this shows the need for us to both look to the teaching authority of the Magisterium.

 

[DustinM]

I think it's pretty clear what Jesus is saying here, and others feel the same way. Obviously, you do not interpret this passage the same way; thus this shows the need for us to both look to the teaching authority of the Magisterium.

Actually, I'm confused on how I feel about it. I certainly don't 100% agree with you, as you can tell, but I don't 100% disagree either.

I'm confused.

That's why I came here. I do like to argue, but I'm not going to join a Christian forum JUST to argue. My questions are legitimate.

And my BIGGEST question now, that nobody is answering is: Where does the Church get IT'S answers for those things that are unclear or left out of the bible?

I'm not asking where the Church's authority comes from even.

When the the Catechism was written, the Catholic Church decided that masturbation was a mortal sin, even though the bible is unclear as to whether or not it's a sin at all. Where did they get the information to make this decision?

If I get my answer, I can be much happier, and have more strength to do what is right!

 

[Assisi]

Actually, I'm confused on how I feel about it. I certainly don't 100% agree with you, as you can tell, but I don't 100% disagree either.

I'm confused.

That's why I came here. I do like to argue, but I'm not going to join a Christian forum JUST to argue. My questions are legitimate.

And my BIGGEST question now, that nobody is answering is: Where does the Church get IT'S answers for those things that are unclear or left out of the bible?

I'm not asking where the Church's authority comes from even.

When the the Catechism was written, the Catholic Church decided that masturbation was a mortal sin, even though the bible is unclear as to whether or not it's a sin at all. Where did they get the information to make this decision?

If I get my answer, I can be much happier, and have more strength to do what is right!

The Church didn't get the information and then make a decision. The current belief is based on what the Church has always taught and believed. Why do we interpret Scripture the way we do? Because Scripture has always been interpreted this way. Here are some quotes from the early Church fathers which back up the view that coitus should never exclude the possibility of offspring, as masturbation does:

Clement of Alexandria
"Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]).

Clement of Alexandria
"To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature" (ibid. 2:10:95:3).

Lactantius
"God gave us eyes not to see and desire pleasure, but to see acts to be performed for the needs of life; so too, the genital ['generating'] part of the body, as the name itself teaches, has been received by us for no other purpose than the generation of offspring" (ibid. 6:23:18).

Epiphanius of Salamis
"They [certain Egyptian heretics] exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption" (Medicine Chest Against Heresies 26:5:2 [A.D. 375]).


The Church does not make decisions about truth in the here and now the way other Christians do. Instead it passes on what has always been believed. We 'hold fast to the traditions handed on from the fathers' as the Bible tells us to.

This may be why we are having trouble answering your question. We can't say, 'Joe thought of it in 1955, and this is how he came to that conclusion'. All we can do is explain the theology behind the 'rule' and say that it is what Christians have always believed.

 

[DustinM]

The Church didn't get the information and then make a decision. The current belief is based on what the Church has always taught and believed. Why do we interpret Scripture the way we do? Because Scripture has always been interpreted this way. Here are some quotes from the early Church fathers which back up the view that coitus should never exclude the possibility of offspring, as masturbation does:

Clement of Alexandria
"Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]).

Clement of Alexandria
"To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature" (ibid. 2:10:95:3).

Lactantius
"God gave us eyes not to see and desire pleasure, but to see acts to be performed for the needs of life; so too, the genital ['generating'] part of the body, as the name itself teaches, has been received by us for no other purpose than the generation of offspring" (ibid. 6:23:18).

Epiphanius of Salamis
"They [certain Egyptian heretics] exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption" (Medicine Chest Against Heresies 26:5:2 [A.D. 375]).


The Church does not make decisions about truth in the here and now the way other Christians do. Instead it passes on what has always been believed. We 'hold fast to the traditions handed on from the fathers' as the Bible tells us to.

This may be why we are having trouble answering your question. We can't say, 'Joe thought of it in 1955, and this is how he came to that conclusion'. All we can do is explain the theology behind the 'rule' and say that it is what Christians have always believed.

This is getting pretty close to answering my questions here, but still not there.

You use the word "always" too much and incorrectly. Only God is/was "always."

The Church passes on what it has always believed yes. But there was a time when the Church didn't exist. They had to formulate these beliefs somehow. They had to DECIDE what would be the core of religion. I say trusting the bible is a good way to go! So that's what they did.

However, as I've said, there are still things the bible is unclear on, such as the topic that started this whole thread. And so the Church, at some point in it's history (even very very early on) had to DECIDE what to say about masturbation. (This has to be what happened, unless you are saying the Catholic Church has existed forever.)

How did they make that decision?

You've got some quotes that date back pretty far there! But who says that whomever wrote The Instructor of Children had God's correct opinion in mind?

Fact: The bible is unclear on certain things.
Fact: The Catholic Church clarifies many of these things.
Fact: The Catholic Church did not clarify these things arbitrarily...things where specifically clarified, and for a reason.
Unclear: Why did they decide to clarify things in the way they did?

 

[Assisi]

This is getting pretty close to answering my questions here, but still not there.

I'm trying

You use the word "always" too much and incorrectly. Only God is/was "always."

The Church passes on what it has always believed yes. But there was a time when the Church didn't exist. They had to formulate these beliefs somehow. They had to DECIDE what would be the core of religion. I say trusting the bible is a good way to go! So that's what they did.

Always as in, since its beginning.
Those quotes I gave you are from about the same time or before the New Testament was compiled. So they are not relying on the Bible for their information. The teaching of Christ, the gospel, was being spread mostly by word of mouth at this stage. the Apostles were taught by Christ, and then the Apostles handed on those teachings. Not all of those teachings would make it into the Bible.

However, as I've said, there are still things the bible is unclear on, such as the topic that started this whole thread. And so the Church, at some point in it's history (even very very early on) had to DECIDE what to say about masturbation. (This has to be what happened, unless you are saying the Catholic Church has existed forever.)

How did they make that decision?

I would say that the Apostles knew the truth about masturbation when they began to evangelise, this would make it hard to pinpoint a document outlining how they got there. Probably they made that decision because Christ Himself told them. The earliest Christians, taught by the Apostles, interpreted Christ's words regarding sexual purity a certain way. This teaching is in evidence in the quotes I gave you. I can't tell you how the Apostles knew to teach what they taught. There was no council, no document published, just evidence that this is what was believed - in which case a council or document would not be needed.

You've got some quotes that date back pretty far there! But who says that whomever wrote The Instructor of Children had God's correct opinion in mind?

The same people who say that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Who decided what is Scripture and what isn't? The Church. The quotes I gave you show what the opinion of the Church was, there are no quotes which contradict them. The Church, as a whole, believed it. There weren't schisms and breaks back then, everyone referred to the same authority.
The Church is protected from teaching the wrong thing. We know this because Christ Himself tells us that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church.

Fact: The bible is unclear on certain things.
Fact: The Catholic Church clarifies many of these things.
Fact: The Catholic Church did not clarify these things arbitrarily...things where specifically clarified, and for a reason.
Unclear: Why did they decide to clarify things in the way they did?

Why clarify? because people started to make counter claims.
Why the teaching they chose? Because it had been taught to them by the Apostles, who had explained the Scriptures and the Gospel to them, who had been taught by Christ.


The theology which accompanies the teaching about masturbation is very beautiful, and makes a lot of sense, and is well founded on Scripture. We can talk about that too if you like?

 

[DustinM]

This is more than what I expected, and I'm glad I came here.

This will take some time to sink in, and it is still going to require faith on my part.

As far as the Theology of the Body goes...I'm listening to the CDs by C. West. I try to listen to them in the car, but the sound of the road drives me nuts on the expressway, so I'm not that far into yet. I just need to remember to bring them in the house and listen.

Thank you

 

[Assisi]

This is more than what I expected, and I'm glad I came here.

This will take some time to sink in, and it is still going to require faith on my part.

As far as the Theology of the Body goes...I'm listening to the CDs by C. West. I try to listen to them in the car, but the sound of the road drives me nuts on the expressway, so I'm not that far into yet. I just need to remember to bring them in the house and listen.

Thank you

Ooh! We have some of those CD's too!

This is a great place to come if you have questions about the faith. There are so many knowledgeable people here, I have learned so much from them!

I will pray for you if you like. The Catholic Church is amazing! It has helped me so much to know Jesus better. There is such a depth of knowledge, you can never run out of things to learn.

 

[Michie]

I've thought of this off & on & had some problems figuring out the mortal sin aspect of it.

But then I thought...

What would Jesus do?

About all I can say about that.

 

[DustinM]

Ooh! We have some of those CD's too!

This is a great place to come if you have questions about the faith. There are so many knowledgeable people here, I have learned so much from them!

I will pray for you if you like. The Catholic Church is amazing! It has helped me so much to know Jesus better. There is such a depth of knowledge, you can never run out of things to learn.

You can pray for me if it's not too much trouble, but i have parents who have prayed for me quite a bit. So, by all means, don't feel obligated to.

I'm seeking more answers. That in itself shows that those prayers have been answered.

 

[Dream]

This is getting pretty close to answering my questions here, but still not there.

You use the word "always" too much and incorrectly. Only God is/was "always."

The Church passes on what it has always believed yes. But there was a time when the Church didn't exist. They had to formulate these beliefs somehow. They had to DECIDE what would be the core of religion. I say trusting the bible is a good way to go! So that's what they did.

However, as I've said, there are still things the bible is unclear on, such as the topic that started this whole thread. And so the Church, at some point in it's history (even very very early on) had to DECIDE what to say about masturbation. (This has to be what happened, unless you are saying the Catholic Church has existed forever.)

How did they make that decision?

You've got some quotes that date back pretty far there! But who says that whomever wrote The Instructor of Children had God's correct opinion in mind?

Fact: The bible is unclear on certain things.
Fact: The Catholic Church clarifies many of these things.
Fact: The Catholic Church did not clarify these things arbitrarily...things where specifically clarified, and for a reason.
Unclear: Why did they decide to clarify things in the way they did?

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but doctrine of the Church is revealed through Ecumenical Councils. Whenever there is a major disagreement on an issue of faith or morals, all of the bishops will get together in what is known as an council and vote on the issue. Since God promises that He will not abandoned His Church, an agreement of the bishops on these issues is protected from any sort of error by the Holy Spirit. The first council, the Council of Jerusalem, we can actually read about in the Acts of the Apostles where the bishops got together and discussed the idea of whether somebody needed to follow Jewish law to be a Christian.