Mary

[TheListener]

100 blessings coming your way.

Would you pray for me?

 

[GregoryTurner]

Sure.

 

[TheListener]

Thanks. God Bless. We are all one body in Christ Jesus.

 

[GregoryTurner]

Thanks. God Bless. We are all one body in Christ Jesus.

You are welcome, you too, brother, Amen.

 

[DeaconDean]

Logical fallacies abound here....

According to the logic of your post

1. Praying to Jesus or the Holy Spirit is a sin, because Jesus did not list them either!

2. Praying ANY other prayer but the Our Father is a sin, since only this was what Jesus told us to pray!

Wow

Friend, I have said over and over again that if your denomination teaches that you can pray to or through Mary, then God Bless you in your convictions. I did not put you down for this. I said that for me, DeaconDean, a Baptist, for me to direct my prayers to anyone other than God, it is a sin. When Jesus taught the disciples to pray He opened up the prayer with "Our Father." He said that if you asked anything of the "Father" to ask in His name. (Jn. 14:13-14) I just don't see Jesus teaching the disciples or anybody else to pray saying "Mary." Or teaching them to ask Mary in His name. That is all I'm saying. Like I said before, I'm not putting you down or your denomination, if they teach that you can, God Bless you in your convictions. It just that for me personally, if I pray to someone else other than God, to me it is a sin.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Blessed Mother, pray for us sinners that we may come to understand you better and stop squabbling over this issue. Amen.

Amen and Amen!


Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

I'll give her the respect she deserves. She was after all, as the angel said:

"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." -Lk. 1:28

She was favored, she was blessed, but that is the extent of it. Seems to me I remember reading in the Gospels somewhere where Jesus taught to pray to God, or to ask in His name. Not Mary's name. I can't find a single place in the scriptures where Jesus taught:

"Mary, which art in heaven."

Or:

"And whatsoever ye shall ask in mary's name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in mary's name, I will do it."

But that is just how I see it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

No one prays in Mary's name.



Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

I ask my friends to pray for me too. Except, they are alive here. "There is one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus."
She didn't save me, nor do I know her.

Behold the truth of these prophetic words of scripture:

"Yea a sword shall pierce your own heart also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Simeon to Mary
The Gospel According to Luke​

Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

wow thats soo disrespectful.


and you said that in the 150 reasons to be a catholic thread, that we are the enemy why?

Can you post a link?



Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

I know! Its ridiculous. People seem to believe almost anything!

So what was the point in bringing it up? Are you trying to equate the Catholic and Orthodox belief and practice of praying to Mary with such absurd nonsense?


Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

Just pray to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
It's worked for the last 1900 years, and it shows no signs of stopping.

For the last 2000 years Christians have prayed to the departed saints as well . .. its worked all this time and shows no signs of stopping!



Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

conversation with God

No, it is a request. . . and it can be made of God or a human being.

Look up the definition of "pray" . . . .



Peace

 

[JohnR7]

Mary is the most important woman in history, period.

I think that the issue about Mary has more to do with her husband. The traditional protestant view is that Joseph was a young man and that after Jesus was born they had kids together.

The Catholic view is that Mary took a vow to remain a virgin for life and that Joseph was a older man who was a widower with 5 children. Four of them were older and married, but one of them, James was younger and Mary took care of James and raised him with Jesus.

So at Christmas when they like to teach the kids a liberal view of Mary, I tend to cringe, because that does not fit the historical view of Mary.

But the virgin of the Lord advanced in age and in virtues; and though, in the words of the Psalmist, her father and mother had forsaken her, the Lord took her up. For daily was she visited by angels, daily did she enjoy a divine vision, which preserved her from all evil, and made her to abound in all good. And so she reached her fourteenth year; and not only were the wicked unable to charge her with anything worthy of reproach, but all the good, who knew her life and conversation, judged her to be worthy of admiration. Then the high priest publicly announced that the virgins who were publicly settled in the temple, and had reached this time of life, should return home and get married, according to the custom of the nation and the ripeness of their years. The others readily obeyed this command; but Mary alone, the virgin of the Lord, answered that she could not do this, saying both that her parents had devoted her to the service of the Lord, and that, moreover, she herself had made to the Lord a vow of virginity, which she would never violate by any intercourse with man. And the high priest, being placed in great perplexity of mind, seeing that neither did he think that the vow should be broken contrary to the Scripture, which says, Vow and pay, nor did he dare to introduce a custom unknown to the nation, gave order that at the festival, which was at hand, all the chief persons from Jerusalem and the neighbourhood should be present, in order that from their advice he might know what was to be done in so doubtful a case. And when this took place, they resolved unanimously that the Lord should be consulted upon this matter. And when they all bowed themselves in prayer, the high priest went to consult God in the usual way. Nor had they long to wait: in the hearing of all a voice issued from the oracle and from the mercy-seat, that, according to the prophecy of Isaiah, a man should be sought out to whom the virgin ought to be entrusted and espoused. For it is clear that Isaiah says: A rod shall come forth from the root of Jesse, and a flower shall ascend from his root; and the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of wisdom and piety; and he shall be filled with the spirit of the fear of the Lord. According to this prophecy, therefore, he predicted that all of the house and family of David that were unmarried and fit for marriage should bring there rods to the altar; and that he whose rod after it was brought should produce a flower, and upon the end of whose rod the Spirit of the Lord should settle in the form of a dove, was the man to whom the virgin ought to be entrusted and espoused.http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0849.htm

 

[winsome]

Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective (James 15:16)

May is more righteous than I am. So if she prays for me I think it will be more powerful than my prayers

 

[DeaconDean]

No one prays in Mary's name.



Peace

Perhaps you as resident authority of catholicism, perhaps you can explain this to me:

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen"

And this one:

"My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, and my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thy own, keep me, guard me as thy property and possession. Amen."

Now I may be ignorant, but to me this sounds an awful lot like prayers directed to, or offered up to Mary. There is a whole lot of prayers to Mary listed here:

http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

As the resident authority, can you explain to me why it is you say you don't pray to Mary yet here are a couple of prayers directed to Mary?

For the last 2000 years Christians have prayed to the departed saints as well . .. its worked all this time and shows no signs of stopping!

I don't know where you got this information sister, but nobody in the Baptist churches where I attend pray to any saint. Our prayers are directed to God, not any saint.

Continued...

 

[icedtea]

Probably there will be a debate about the word Direct and what it means...

 

[DeaconDean]

No, it is a request. . . and it can be made of God or a human being.

Look up the definition of "pray" . . . .



Peace

Ok, here is what Bakers Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theolgy says:

Prayer:

"Jesus teaches this prayer to his disciples as a paradigm of proper prayer as he trains them for the missionary task of the messianic age that he is inaugurating in his own person as the incarnate Son of God and Son of man. The prayer needs to be seen in the larger contexts of the Sermon on the Mount and the Gospel of Matthew. The shorter version in Luke 11:2-4 appears in a different setting; during Jesus' itinerant ministry he paraphrased important teachings in training his followers for prayer and mission. Both versions of the Lord's Prayer imply the importance of a vertical dimension of personal purity in worship of the Father as a prerequisite of valid missionary activity on the Lord's behalf.
A second requirement of successful mission is the horizontal bearing of fruit, as evidenced in Jesus' teaching that his true followers will be known by their fruits (Matt 7:15-20). Both vertical and horizontal dimensions are emphasized as a unit in the Sermon on the Mount, which summarizes the purpose of the Gospel of Matthew as a whole. The Gospel was likely written to serve as a manual for mission in the early church and was based on eyewitness accounts of Jesus' work and teaching. Matthew then would have been written within the nascent Jewish Christian mission originating in and emanating from Jerusalem, reflecting Jesus' exemplary training of the first line of missioners with a view to serving as model for all his subsequent followers.
A study of the four Gospels affirms a recurrent pattern: Jesus as incarnate Son of God and Son of man models in action for his disciples what he teaches, since he embodies the ideal image of God in humanity. Where Adam failed he succeeds in his redemptive and exemplary work. Since God is the relational Trinity in everlasting and inexhaustible fellowship as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the divine design and nature of created humanity are to reflect relatedness and fellowship both vertically and horizontally as the Old Testament Decalogue indicates, and this Jesus does to perfection. While his relation to the Father and the spirit is unique in view of his oneness and equality within the Triune Family, as incarnate Son he also exemplifies direct address, passionate intent and purity, unostentatious setting in prayer, and concern with the two dimensions of proper prayer—honoring the Father vertically and asking for help in realizing the Father's will in the present mission horizontally. These two dimensions constitute the heart of the Sermon on the Mount and the Lord's Prayer.
The immediate context of the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6 is the triple teaching of Jesus on alms (vv. 1-4), prayer (vv. 5-15), and fasting (vv. 16-18). In each Jesus warns against ostentatious hypocrisy and requires worship en to krypto ("in secret"). This has to do not so much with privacy and isolation ("Our Father" indicates a communal prayer), but praying with pure intent for the honor and pleasure of the Father, not for selfish and transient approval from the world. When this proper attitude is fulfilled God rewards the worshiper, but "in secret, " on his own terms (vv. 4, 6, 18).
With the crucial matter of proper intent established at the outset, Jesus instructs his disciples as to the priority and content of the ideal prayer. The prayer is not necessarily given for strict liturgical use, for Jesus says, "This, then, is how you should pray." If used as a set prayer, the conditions of the teaching unit are to be observed, especially the warning not to "keep on babbling like pagans" (6:7). The significance of the Lord's Prayer lies in the fact that every prayer directed to God should function in two spheres. The basic format of the prayer is accordingly divided into two sections. The first is directed vertically in glorification of the Father and in petition that his name be hallowed, his reign realized, and his will accomplished on earth as in heaven. Where the first section (vv. 9-10) focuses on the Father, the second (vv. 11-13) focuses on us: give us, forgive us, lead us. The priority is important, for according to Jesus' own formula the second set will not function without the first in place. Glorification of God must be given pride of place in prayer and takes precedence over "us" petitions.
Examining the opening vertical unit of the prayer we notice its poetic arrangement in the following sentence flow of verse 9-10:

Pavter hJmw'n oJ ejn toi'ß oujranoi'ß,​

(Our Father who art in heaven),​

aJgiasqhvtw to; o~nomav sou,​

(Let thy name be hallowed).​

ejlqevtw hJ basileiva sou,​

(Let thy kingdom come),​

genhqhvtw to; qevlhmav sou,​

(Let thy will be done),​

wJß ejn oujranw'/ kai; ejpi; gh'ß.​

(As in heaven so upon earth).​

The opening line of the prayer is a declarative statement; it affirms that God is (implied), that he is in heaven (distant and sovereign), and that he is also our Father (near, familial, and personal). The three petitions follow with imperatives up front, emphasizing all three aspects of the Greek aorist tense: let the action begin (inceptive), let it continue (durative), let it be completed (terminal). The triplet indicates not so much the power of the petitioner to bring about what is petitioned, but agreement with the fact that God is already sovereignly bringing to pass all three petitions. In the person of Jesus the Son his name is being hallowed, his kingdom is now coming, his will is in process of being done on earth as it is in heaven.
All three petitions are to be understood in light of inaugurated eschatology that Jesus embodies in his own words and work and will bring to completion at his second coming. The three petitions accordingly are "joining" petitions in the sense that Jesus is asking his followers to join him in what already are the sovereign realities and doings of the Father through the Son. In praying the disciples are in effect serving notice that they want to be part of this great, ongoing, glorifying ministry, desiring that all humankind will come to honor God as he deserves to be honored. Hence the petitions acknowledge the already and not yet aspects of Jesus' ministry and the disciples' desire to participate in the mission of realizing on earth what is enjoyed in heaven.
The second unit in the prayer comprises three parallel "us" petitions that request divine help in the mission to which Jesus' followers are being called: "give us"; "forgive us"; "deliver us." These correspond on the human side to the three petitions in the first unit, which focus on God. As the Father's name is to be hallowed, so the disciples ask to be honored with spiritual and material sustenance because they bear the image of God and reflect his glory, especially now that they are experiencing the redeeming work of Jesus the Son of God in their lives and are engaged in sharing the good news of salvation in the mission of fruitbearing.
The key here is "not too much, not too little, but just enough, " as with God's supply of manna in the morning and quail in the evening for Israel during the wilderness mission—just enough for the day, no more (Exod 16:4,12-21). Hence epiousion is best translated "what is sufficient"— "Give us food sufficient for the day, " remembering that the setting of the Gospel of Matthew, the Sermon on the Mount, and the Lord's Prayer (in Luke as well) is one of eschatological urgency and preparation for mission in the new exodus inaugurated by Jesus, and of traveling light; it is not a general prayer for common grace. There was no ordinariness for Israel in the wilderness, nor is there for God's people in the new mission. As with Israel, Jesus' disciples are to acknowledge the honor of being called to represent God's image in the world, to conquer enemy-held territory in his name, and to exhibit faith in the Lord that he will provide daily sustenance for their extraordinary eschatological journey.
The second petition in the "us" section parallels the second petition in the "Father" section. How does "your kingdom come"? It comes by the Father's bringing forgiveness through the redemptive work of Jesus the Son, who personifies the redeeming reign of God. Accordingly, the kingdom comes as sinners ask forgiveness of the Lord by acknowledging moral and spiritual obligations, receive saving grace by faith, and then pass along the good news of Jesus to others with a forgiving heart. The petition is not conditional; sinners are not forgiven because they forgive others. They are saved by grace through the redeeming work of Jesus alone. But they have no right to claim forgiveness for themselves if they are unwilling to forgive others, for that would undermine the purpose of the disciples' mission: as they have been forgiven by God's grace in Jesus the Son, so they are to share the message of forgiveness with the world.
The mission of proclamation to which the disciples of Jesus are called leads to the third "us" petition, which corresponds to the third "Father" petition. How shall "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"? It is done by proclaiming the work of reconciliation Jesus came to accomplish and so binding the devil and plundering his goods (Matt 12:28-30; Luke 11:20-23). Jesus defeated the tempter by successfully passing the probation of testing (Matt 4:1-11), and hence proved worthy as his disciples' savior and exemplar. Thus the third petition is best understood if it focuses on the prayer "deliver us from the evil one, " taking the clause "and lead us not into temptation" as explanatory of what is involved in the petition: protection from the adversary who would keep us from salvation and from sharing it with others. This is essentially the prayer Jesus prays in Gethsemane (Matt 26:39; 4:7) as he resists the temptation not to drink the cup of redemptive suffering, thus again foiling the devil who is seeking to divert the image-keeper from his redemptive role.
With the exception of the petition for forgiveness of sins (Jesus is the sinbearer who provides forgiveness), the eschatological themes of the Lord's Prayer would have been prayed by Jesus throughout his ministry; they are thus fitting for his followers, who are given the honor and responsibility of sharing in his mission by proclaiming the coming of the kingdom and doing the will of God, to his glory.

Royce Gordon Gruenler​

So that in the model prayer Jesus offered in Matt. 6, we are to direct all prayers towards God, not anybody else.

But that is just how this Baptist sees it.

So could you explain your position of offering prayers to Mary? Just so I could understand. Enlighten me please.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[hoser]

The actual worship of Mary may be just a papal decision away. If that happens millions of Catholics will do openly what they now do secretly (and some not so secretly). Imho, of course.

So do you REALLY believe that Catholics WORSHIP Mary? Do YOU really believe that?

Can you find any evidence of that? Or do Catholic hold our blessed mother with respect just like her son Jesus did? Hmmmm?

 

[Zeena]

Romans 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[dave90]

Romans 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

so Mary is the "creature" ?