Aldebaran

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You seem to be failing to grasp that Mary is special because of Who her Child is.

-CryptoLutheran

Then give her Child the glory. He's the One who earned it.
 
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Open Heart

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Mary didn't part the Red Sea either. You're simply placing an emotional value on one action, and then placing undo emphasis on it.
The parting of the Red sea cannot be compared to the Incarnation.
 
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Aldebaran

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Has anyone suggested that we shouldn't glorify the Lord?

-CryptoLutheran

When people pray in a way that mentions Mary before they ever mention Christ, then they are glorifying her over Him.
 
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ViaCrucis

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When people pray in a way that mentions Mary before they ever mention Christ, then they are glorifying her over Him.

So if I pray, "Gracious God and Father, I give You thanks for the gift of the Incarnation, that through Your servant Mary was born Your only-begotten Son, our Lord." I've given more glory to Mary than I have Christ? How exactly does this "mentioning" and its ordinality work exactly?

So if I pray, "I give You thanks for Your written word in which I hear the Gospel of Your Son Jesus" am I glorifying the Bible over Christ? How about, "Of David's line, Christ our Lord" am I glorifying David over Christ?

You'll clearly need to offer some sort of clarification. Because if I'm being completely honest, I think you just want to have a problem with people giving honor to the mother of God. And, yes, she is the mother of God because her Child is God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Aldebaran

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So if I pray, "Gracious God and Father, I give You thanks for the gift of the Incarnation, that through Your servant Mary was born Your only-begotten Son, our Lord." I've given more glory to Mary than I have Christ? How exactly does this "mentioning" and its ordinality work exactly?

So if I pray, "I give You thanks for Your written word in which I hear the Gospel of Your Son Jesus" am I glorifying the Bible over Christ? How about, "Of David's line, Christ our Lord" am I glorifying David over Christ?

You'll clearly need to offer some sort of clarification. Because if I'm being completely honest, I think you just want to have a problem with people giving honor to the mother of God. And, yes, she is the mother of God because her Child is God.

-CryptoLutheran

Here's what I'm talking about, and it only took one simple google search of "catholic prayer" to find it:

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen."
 
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ViaCrucis

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Here's what I'm talking about, and it only took one simple google search of "catholic prayer" to find it:

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen."

So your problem is with quoting the Gospel of Luke?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Aldebaran

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So your problem is with quoting the Gospel of Luke?

-CryptoLutheran

If an angel talking to Mary is the prayer a person uses (word for word, no less) to pray to Mary themselves, then they are clearly glorifying Mary over Christ (who just happens to be the One who died for our sins so we could have eternal life if we accept HIS gift of salvation).
 
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ViaCrucis

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If an angel talking to Mary is the prayer a person uses (word for word, no less) to pray to Mary themselves, then they are clearly glorifying Mary over Christ (who just happens to be the One who died for our sins so we could have eternal life if we accept HIS gift of salvation).

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus."

Sure sounds like it's giving glory to Christ to me.

This form of the Hail Mary, by the way, which is the older medieval form, was quite acceptable to the Evangelical reformers. Luther objected to the petition amended, "Pray for us sinners..." primarily because Luther didn't regard petitioning the saints to pray for us to have valid merit--not because the saints can't pray for us (Scripture demonstrates that the saints and angels do pray for us), but rather because we can't know for certain that the saints can hear our petitions and thus, to side on caution, it is perhaps best not to do so.

The problem doesn't seem to really be about "glorifying" Mary instead of Christ; because that's not happening. The problem seems to be that Mary is being given any kind of honor at all, and I suspect the sole cause of this being a problem is because it's something "those Catholics do".

I will honor God's saints, including and especially the holy mother of God, because of the grace of God, the promises of God, and the glory of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ--my Lord and God. It's not either-or; it's because of. I honor Mary because of Christ and to glorify Christ; I honor all the saints because of Christ and to glorify Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Aldebaran

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"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus."

Sure sounds like it's giving glory to Christ to me.

Sure sounds like it's Mary (mentioned before anyone else) who is full of grace.

The problem doesn't seem to really be about "glorifying" Mary instead of Christ; because that's not happening. The problem seems to be that Mary is being given any kind of honor at all, and I suspect the sole cause of this being a problem is because it's something "those Catholics do".

The problem is putting Mary in Christ's place in prayer and praying to her.

I will honor God's saints, including and especially the holy mother of God, because of the grace of God, the promises of God, and the glory of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ--my Lord and God. It's not either-or; it's because of. I honor Mary because of Christ and to glorify Christ; I honor all the saints because of Christ and to glorify Christ.

Honoring them is one thing. Praying to them, thinking you'll be heard by them instead of God Himself is exactly what the devil would want you to do. He doesn't want us to pray in the first place, but if we're going to do it, he would rather we pray to anyone other than God the Father or His Son who we are saved by.
 
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mmksparbud

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The Mary Magdalene ironically have far more importance and understanding of Christ's ministry than the Mary Earthly mother of Christ.

Mary the mother even once called Christ a madman and Christ even goes to say that Mary is not family (because she does not believe) in the spiritual context.

There's a very tiny portion where Mary the Mother showed sympathy for Christ's ministry and that is only during crucifixion and the resurrection - the last few chapters of the Gospels only.

There's very little role of Mary the Earthly mother in Christ's ministry. She won't even be the first among the disciples, certainly the last one.


I could say Mary the mother is getting an undeserved attention among the Catholics.

The only plausible answer in favor is in science in the actual science of virgin birth that most of Christ's genetic material was identical to Mary's. But if that is true, it doesn't explain Mary's contradictory behavior against Christ. They would at least be behaving quite similarly.

Or maybe there are scriptures telling a different story about Mary the mother we don't know about.


I just started to follow this thread and this stood out to me. It is very wrong and rather offensive. I certainly do not agree with the preeminence of Mary in the Catholic church. But I believe her to have been a devout believer in Jesus and the chosen vessel of God for the birth and raising of His Son. As such, she is due a great deal of respect,----but certainly not the veneration accorded her in the church. She does not go to God with our prayers---Jesus is our only intercessor. And it is Jesus that is above all, He points us to God, not to Mary. But I believe she will hold a high place in heaven for she is unique in all the world, the only one to have ever carried the Son of God and raised Him to be the savior of the world. There has never been, nor ever will be, a greater honor given to anyone. But she is human and no human should be venerated as she is and worshipped as she is and prayed to.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Mark 3:21---"And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.”


That is not saying he is a madman. I think you should study the Greek and it is clear what they were saying. Also note is says family not Mary....so your interpretation is not valid and you are missing the point. Out of his mind is another way of saying is was really intense.
 
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Bob Carabbio

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And...from this one sentence you've concluded that "family" means his own mother too?!
So then explain Mark 3:31,32. if Jesus "MOTHER" was there with his brethren, that would indicate that Mary, along with the family thought He was "Beside Himself".

How do you intend to "Spin" that one???? DOes the "Catholic concept" of "Mother" mean that hes was a "Family Friend"???
 
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mmksparbud

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It is ridiculous to think that Mary would have thought Jesus to be out of His mind. It was the Holy Spirit who spoke to her before His birth
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

That is not something that any mother would forget. Nor the sight of a 12 year old boy teaching the Rabbi's, and she didn't consider Him crazy when she told the servants to do whatever He asked them to do and He turned water to wine.
 
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Aldebaran

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So your problem is with quoting the Gospel of Luke?

-CryptoLutheran

The Gospel of Luke wasn't in existence to be quoted from.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Sure sounds like it's Mary (mentioned before anyone else) who is full of grace.

It's what the angel said to her, "Hail Mary, full of grace"; the language is archaic English here, but that Mary is being greeted "hail" from the same source as "hello" and saying she is highly favored. That's what Gabriel said to her in Luke's Gospel. If you have a problem with that then your issue is with Luke's Gospel.

The problem is putting Mary in Christ's place in prayer and praying to her.

Proper petitions to the saints is about them praying for us. Notice how the petitionary added to the Hail Mary isn't a petition for Mary herself to do anything by her own power, but instead is to say, "pray for us sinners".

Again, that the saints pray for us is not controversial, this is accepted as not just historic in Christianity but also biblical--Scripture has the saints in heaven praying for those on earth in the Apocalypse, and in Zechariah we have an example of an angel praying for people.

Honoring them is one thing. Praying to them, thinking you'll be heard by them instead of God Himself is exactly what the devil would want you to do. He doesn't want us to pray in the first place, but if we're going to do it, he would rather we pray to anyone other than God the Father or His Son who we are saved by.

Argumentum ad diabolum

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Gospel of Luke wasn't in existence to be quoted from.

Luke's Gospel was written, depending on who you ask, anywhere between about 60 and 80 AD. Some of the earliest uses of some form of the Hail Mary was in use liturgically in the 6th century.

I'm going to go ahead and say that a difference of about 500 years is probably sufficient grounds to say that, yes, the Gospel of Luke was in existence to be quoted from.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ken Behrens

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It's what the angel said to her, "Hail Mary, full of grace"; the language is archaic English here, but that Mary is being greeted "hail" from the same source as "hello" and saying she is highly favored. That's what Gabriel said to her in Luke's Gospel. If you have a problem with that then your issue is with Luke's Gospel.

Proper petitions to the saints is about them praying for us. Notice how the petitionary added to the Hail Mary isn't a petition for Mary herself to do anything by her own power, but instead is to say, "pray for us sinners".

Again, that the saints pray for us is not controversial, this is accepted as not just historic in Christianity but also biblical--Scripture has the saints in heaven praying for those on earth in the Apocalypse, and in Zechariah we have an example of an angel praying for people.

Argumentum ad diabolum

-CryptoLutheran
Mary is highly favored. So is anyone who is willing to accept the atonement of Christ. My personal salvation, and Christi living in me, is the biggest favor anyone can receive from God.

The controversy of saints praying for us is not settled by either of your quotes. Revelation has elders and living creatures (symbolic of certain things on earth) lifting up prayers of the "saints", which word can also refer to those alive on earth. Assuming the deceased saints are conscious today requires certain other assumptions about the nature of their material existence and of heaven. Just like the belief in the assumption of Mary requires a place for her physical body, and asks questions whether it is of the same type as that of Jesus. For this reason, many denominations believe that we all sleep until the resurrection at Jesus' return, and rely on those passages which support that idea. And of course, an angel praying is not a saint praying. Part of the rejection of canonicity of Maccabees (in the apocrypha) is the statement "it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead", even in spite of the fact that Paul mentions baptism for the dead.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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I was raised Catholic, though I never really felt the urge to study its doctrine further than what I know now. I used to attend this fantastic Catholic Church, made some friends, we would study the doctrine (without the Bible!), sing and so on.

On one trip of ours to Lourdes, France, I asked the priest a couple of questions, things he couldn't really answer. I was about 15 or 16 years old and already starving for the truth and God. I remember saying "maybe once I die, I'll ask God the truth" little did I know that if I had stuck with that mentality, it could've been too late for me.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not here to bash any of you darlings, however, I seek proper understanding and reason regarding this false doctrine that trapped my family in it. Because of my conservative Catholic mother, I am unable to attend my type of Church and learn more about the Lord, therefore internet is the only place to go. I am trapped, and if I decide to go on a Sunday to Church, she attacks me believing I am in a cult because I don't pray to Mary -- to which I won't ever again.

My stay in Lourdes was short but somewhat pleasant, yet I felt dead inside. During the night, the priest suggested us to go to the chapel and pray to Mary with this repetitive prayer and on our knees for one hour or so, and done. Nothing changed, and I was left questioning myself more than before.

In this article from Carm.org, I found the following:

  1. 1531, Guadalupe Mexico, appearance to Juan Diego.
    1. "Know, know for sure, my dearest, littlest, and youngest son, that I am the perfect and ever Virgin Holy Mary.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
    2. “I am truly your merciful Mother, yours and all the people who live united in this land and of all the other people of different ancestries, my lovers, who love me, those who seek me, those who trust in me. Here I will hear their weeping, their complaints and heal all their sorrows, hardships and sufferings.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
    3. “Am I not here, I, who am your Mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not the source of your joy? Are you not in the hollow of my mantle, in the crossing of my arms? Do you need anything more?(theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
  2. 1917, Fatima, Portugal. In 1917 three children (Jacinto Marto, Lucia Santos, and Francisco Marto) said that an apparition of Mary appeared to them that was brighter than the sun.
    1. “Are you willing to offer yourselves to God to bear all the sufferings He wants to send you, as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and for the conversion of sinners?” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)
    2. "I will take Jacinta and Francisco shortly; but you will stay here for some time to come. Jesus wants to use you to make Me known and loved. He wishes to establish the devotion to My Immaculate Heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it; these souls will be dear to God, like flowers put by Me to adorn his throne," (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)
    3. “Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say often to Jesus, especially whenever you make a sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of Thee, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)

This last bit quoted "Do you need anything more?" is bothersome because it implies Mary is sufficient, and not Jesus. It's wrong and unbiblical, those are kind of things I never knew about because I never held the Bible in my hands until 2012.

So my question is why believe in this if proof is found in the Bible? Why do Catholics hate Protestants and other Christian denominations (not that's this specific part is important) when we agree that Jesus is Lord and our only Savior? You can even read more things regarding that here if anyone is interested. I'd like to see people's point of views and opinions.

Thank you and God bless

Where is the intellectual integrity do I ask?

You admit that you were spiritually lazy and didn't botter to read up on doctrine, but then you go ahead
and call it false ?

How could you possibly know anything if you're a Catholic alphabet?

Throwing accusations east and west when having so limited knowledge only makes you come of as dumb and I'm sure you're not so its sad really.

You know that charm is both bigoted and filled with contempt and hatred towards Catholicism.

Based on your post in this thread it seems to me that you've been manipulated by the charm people.
Brainwashing is dangerous.
 
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Ken Behrens

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Where is the intellectual integrity do I ask?

You admit that you were spiritually lazy and didn't botter to read up on doctrine, but then you go ahead
and call it false ?

How could you possibly know anything if you're a Catholic alphabet?

Throwing accusations east and west when having so limited knowledge only makes you come of as dumb and I'm sure you're not so its sad really.

You know that charm is both bigoted and filled with contempt and hatred towards Catholicism.

Based on your post in this thread it seems to me that you've been manipulated by the charm people.
Brainwashing is dangerous.
Himmevin can defend herself, but your post illustrates her points exactly. I have catholic education through the masters degree. I was in ministry in the Catholic church full time for 9 years. I was once asked to teach in a seminary. When I was 9, I even made a Mary altar. So your accusations of her do not apply to me. And yet, I agree with her. And you miss the entire point of why.

Read how her mother treats her. Her mother treats her this way because of Mary (so her mother says). I was treated the same way by the nuns for 12 years. So was the only priest I worked for who was not either living in public sin, getting institutionalized for mental breakdowns, or acting like an idiot. As a child, I watched the 10 year old girls kneeling in the pew praying their rosary, and wondered if Mary brought people to Jesus. Then I saw 80 year old women kneeling in the same pew the next day, praying their rosary, and I figured it must not have worked in their case. I watched the charismatic renewal in that state be ripped apart by my first wife's counselor priest's group trios toi Medjugoje, while he was living in in sin the entire time. I saw how the Medjugoje prophecies did not come true, and I still see the Catholic pentecostals praying to her. I once read a scholarly article, that did a fairly good job of proving that the rate of socially approved adultery in the countries of Europe is roughly correlated to the amount that the bishops there encourage devotion to Mary. And I still remember my first wife's excellent comment about "why in the apparitions, does she never appear to be Jewish?"

(* definition of living in sin: sodomizing altar boys; establishing a prostitution house for such orgies; having a homosexual lover in the rectory; permitting fortune telling in the rectory)

There's no hatred here. I am stating only facts I observed myself.

By their fruits you will know them.
 
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