Mary above all

[CrystalDragon]

Yeah, sure. This is generally how Catholics dismiss the pagan corruption of their church. And bringing Lucifer into the picture simply muddies the waters. Well as a matter of fact, Lucifer (as Satan) is behind every form of paganism and idolatry.

"Lucifer" isn't even Satan. If you look at the context of the passage where Lucifer I'd mentioned, it's referring to a Babylonian king who was in power at the time.

 

[Open Heart]

I meant by 50 AD, when the false apostles and many other true apostles not mentioned in the Bible had already established churches. But when you come right down to it, even the churches of Acts 2 were not mostly under the apostles.

I think that you and I have a very different idea of what a Christian church is. A Gnostic church is not a Christian church. A Christian church by definition is under the Apostles teachings, even if it is separated by time or distance.

 

[Open Heart]

But Mary's mother gave birth to Mary. Shouldn't we be venerating her even more? Oh, and then there's Mary's grandmother. Wouldn't she be even greater and worthy of veneration?

Not following your logic.

 

[Open Heart]

If I would deal with this issue as it ought to be dealt with, I would be banned from this site.

Thank goodness the site has rules to enforce basic decency.

 

[Ken Behrens]

I think that you and I have a very different idea of what a Christian church is. A Gnostic church is not a Christian church. A Christian church by definition is under the Apostles teachings, even if it is separated by time or distance.

No, I know exactly what it is, and that it took about 60 years before it was officially condemned as heresy. There is very little difference between the opinion that a church started by Paul would hold of a church started by Marcion then, and a Catholic opinion of Protestant churches in 1850, or the modern Christian opinion of the Mormons, or of some churches' opinion of the Seventh Day Adventists. We've got a church that started here in the area that is willing to go to war over whether the King James Bible is more inspired than the original Hebrew and Greek. I've got a pastor I was helping who will not talk to me, because I do not believe we are all gods; Naw, it's the same alright.

 

[Aldebaran]

Not following your logic.

If you can follow the logic of venerating Mary because of who she gave birth to Jesus, then you should be able to follow the logic of venerating Mary's mother for giving birth to her.
Besides, it wasn't even the birth that was a miracle. Women give birth all the time, and Mary did it the same way as all other women. The miracle was the conception. Mary had nothing to do with that.

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

btw Bible forbids practice of necromancy (not to mention idolatry as well) which is praying to dead ppl-- our God, our Lord is ALIVE!

 

[Open Heart]

Why some insist that she was 'special' is beyond me. Special in giving birth to the Son of God but that doesn't mean she was 'exceptional' in any manner. She was merely a 'woman'

Of course she was a mortal woman!!!!! She certainly wasn't an angel or a deity. But she WAS a special woman. She is blessed among women. All nations will call her blessed. She is the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because of her YES to God, the Savior was born into the world. IOW, she participated in the Incarnation -- no one else in history can say that.

 

[Open Heart]

No, I know exactly what it is, and that it took about 60 years before it was officially condemned as heresy.

Right. And before that, it was an unofficial heresy which the Apostles battled in their preaching and teaching.

 

[Open Heart]

If you can follow the logic of venerating Mary because of who she gave birth to Jesus, then you should be able to follow the logic of venerating Mary's mother for giving birth to her.
Besides, it wasn't even the birth that was a miracle. Women give birth all the time, and Mary did it the same way as all other women. The miracle was the conception. Mary had nothing to do with that.

We do venerate St Anne, but not as much as St Mary.

The conception of Jesus only took place because Mary consented.

 

[Ken Behrens]

Right. And before that, it was an unofficial heresy which the Apostles battled in their preaching and teaching.

I actually learned it different, that it was not within Christianity to be recognized until 60AD or so, then took a long time to be recognized. Most of the wiritngs come from 3rd century or later. I guess it depends which scholar you read, ofc. It doesn't matter. I am only using it to illustrate that the battles going on today are similar to that.

 

[Geralt]

good move. i will be harsh, but really if you remove Mary from the gospel message aside from his role in the incarnation, the gospel remains the same. all the devotions offered to Mary is not only a waste of life-time & effort.. but sin and therefore incurs the wrath of God.

you will never find her mentioned in the epistles, nor those fantastic stories of ascension which should have confounded Paul or Peter or the other apostles that they would have mention the event in the book of acts or their letters. its all invented, and the apocryhpha and all other traditions that promote it are all works of pagan-fiction.​

I was raised Catholic, though I never really felt the urge to study its doctrine further than what I know now. I used to attend this fantastic Catholic Church, made some friends, we would study the doctrine (without the Bible!), sing and so on.

On one trip of ours to Lourdes, France, I asked the priest a couple of questions, things he couldn't really answer. I was about 15 or 16 years old and already starving for the truth and God. I remember saying "maybe once I die, I'll ask God the truth" little did I know that if I had stuck with that mentality, it could've been too late for me.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not here to bash any of you darlings, however, I seek proper understanding and reason regarding this false doctrine that trapped my family in it. Because of my conservative Catholic mother, I am unable to attend my type of Church and learn more about the Lord, therefore internet is the only place to go. I am trapped, and if I decide to go on a Sunday to Church, she attacks me believing I am in a cult because I don't pray to Mary -- to which I won't ever again.

My stay in Lourdes was short but somewhat pleasant, yet I felt dead inside. During the night, the priest suggested us to go to the chapel and pray to Mary with this repetitive prayer and on our knees for one hour or so, and done. Nothing changed, and I was left questioning myself more than before.

In this article from Carm.org, I found the following:

Spoiler

1. 1531, Guadalupe Mexico, appearance to Juan Diego.
   1. "Know, know for sure, my dearest, littlest, and youngest son, that I am the perfect and ever Virgin Holy Mary.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
   2. “I am truly your merciful Mother, yours and all the people who live united in this land and of all the other people of different ancestries, my lovers, who love me, those who seek me, those who trust in me. Here I will hear their weeping, their complaints and heal all their sorrows, hardships and sufferings.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
   3. “Am I not here, I, who am your Mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not the source of your joy? Are you not in the hollow of my mantle, in the crossing of my arms? Do you need anything more?(theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
2. 1917, Fatima, Portugal. In 1917 three children (Jacinto Marto, Lucia Santos, and Francisco Marto) said that an apparition of Mary appeared to them that was brighter than the sun.
   1. “Are you willing to offer yourselves to God to bear all the sufferings He wants to send you, as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and for the conversion of sinners?” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)
   2. "I will take Jacinta and Francisco shortly; but you will stay here for some time to come. Jesus wants to use you to make Me known and loved. He wishes to establish the devotion to My Immaculate Heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it; these souls will be dear to God, like flowers put by Me to adorn his throne," (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)
   3. “Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say often to Jesus, especially whenever you make a sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of Thee, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)

This last bit quoted "Do you need anything more?" is bothersome because it implies Mary is sufficient, and not Jesus. It's wrong and unbiblical, those are kind of things I never knew about because I never held the Bible in my hands until 2012.

So my question is why believe in this if proof is found in the Bible? Why do Catholics hate Protestants and other Christian denominations (not that's this specific part is important) when we agree that Jesus is Lord and our only Savior? You can even read more things regarding that here if anyone is interested. I'd like to see people's point of views and opinions.

Thank you and God bless

 

[Aldebaran]

We do venerate St Anne, but not as much as St Mary.

The conception of Jesus only took place because Mary consented.

I don't read that she was asked for her permission:
Luke 1:31--"And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus."

Luke 1:35--The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God."

 

[Open Heart]

I don't read that she was asked for her permission:

It is implicit. God doesn't force us to do good,nor does God commit spiritual rape. And it is recorded that Mary gives her consent:
And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. Luke 1:38

 

[Aldebaran]

It is implicit. God doesn't force us to do good,nor does God commit spiritual rape. And it is recorded that Mary gives her consent:
And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. Luke 1:38

Are you aware of how many times people in scripture have uttered phrases like that? Should they be venerated as well?

 

[Open Heart]

Are you aware of how many times people in scripture have uttered phrases like that? Should they be venerated as well?

But none of those other people consented to participate in the Incarnation.

 

[Aldebaran]

But none of those other people consented to participate in the Incarnation.

Mary didn't part the Red Sea either. You're simply placing an emotional value on one action, and then placing undo emphasis on it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Are you aware of how many times people in scripture have uttered phrases like that? Should they be venerated as well?

Yes. And the Christian Church does venerate and respect them.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Mary didn't part the Red Sea either. You're simply placing an emotional value on one action, and then placing undo emphasis on it.

We place emphasis on the Incarnation because it's the central event in the history of the universe: God became man.

I don't know, that seems like something of a big deal. Certainly a lot bigger deal than parting the Red Sea.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

If you can follow the logic of venerating Mary because of who she gave birth to Jesus, then you should be able to follow the logic of venerating Mary's mother for giving birth to her.

You seem to be failing to grasp that Mary is special because of Who her Child is.

-CryptoLutheran