Mary above all

[Himmevin]

I was raised Catholic, though I never really felt the urge to study its doctrine further than what I know now. I used to attend this fantastic Catholic Church, made some friends, we would study the doctrine (without the Bible!), sing and so on.

On one trip of ours to Lourdes, France, I asked the priest a couple of questions, things he couldn't really answer. I was about 15 or 16 years old and already starving for the truth and God. I remember saying "maybe once I die, I'll ask God the truth" little did I know that if I had stuck with that mentality, it could've been too late for me.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not here to bash any of you darlings, however, I seek proper understanding and reason regarding this false doctrine that trapped my family in it. Because of my conservative Catholic mother, I am unable to attend my type of Church and learn more about the Lord, therefore internet is the only place to go. I am trapped, and if I decide to go on a Sunday to Church, she attacks me believing I am in a cult because I don't pray to Mary -- to which I won't ever again.

My stay in Lourdes was short but somewhat pleasant, yet I felt dead inside. During the night, the priest suggested us to go to the chapel and pray to Mary with this repetitive prayer and on our knees for one hour or so, and done. Nothing changed, and I was left questioning myself more than before.

In this article from Carm.org, I found the following:

Spoiler

1. 1531, Guadalupe Mexico, appearance to Juan Diego.
   1. "Know, know for sure, my dearest, littlest, and youngest son, that I am the perfect and ever Virgin Holy Mary.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
   2. “I am truly your merciful Mother, yours and all the people who live united in this land and of all the other people of different ancestries, my lovers, who love me, those who seek me, those who trust in me. Here I will hear their weeping, their complaints and heal all their sorrows, hardships and sufferings.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
   3. “Am I not here, I, who am your Mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not the source of your joy? Are you not in the hollow of my mantle, in the crossing of my arms? Do you need anything more?(theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
2. 1917, Fatima, Portugal. In 1917 three children (Jacinto Marto, Lucia Santos, and Francisco Marto) said that an apparition of Mary appeared to them that was brighter than the sun.
   1. “Are you willing to offer yourselves to God to bear all the sufferings He wants to send you, as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and for the conversion of sinners?” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)
   2. "I will take Jacinta and Francisco shortly; but you will stay here for some time to come. Jesus wants to use you to make Me known and loved. He wishes to establish the devotion to My Immaculate Heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it; these souls will be dear to God, like flowers put by Me to adorn his throne," (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)
   3. “Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say often to Jesus, especially whenever you make a sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of Thee, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)

This last bit quoted "Do you need anything more?" is bothersome because it implies Mary is sufficient, and not Jesus. It's wrong and unbiblical, those are kind of things I never knew about because I never held the Bible in my hands until 2012.

So my question is why believe in this if proof is found in the Bible? Why do Catholics hate Protestants and other Christian denominations (not that's this specific part is important) when we agree that Jesus is Lord and our only Savior? You can even read more things regarding that here if anyone is interested. I'd like to see people's point of views and opinions.

Thank you and God bless

 

[timewerx]

The Mary Magdalene ironically have far more importance and understanding of Christ's ministry than the Mary Earthly mother of Christ.

Mary the mother even once called Christ a madman and Christ even goes to say that Mary is not family (because she does not believe) in the spiritual context.

There's a very tiny portion where Mary the Mother showed sympathy for Christ's ministry and that is only during crucifixion and the resurrection - the last few chapters of the Gospels only.

There's very little role of Mary the Earthly mother in Christ's ministry. She won't even be the first among the disciples, certainly the last one.


I could say Mary the mother is getting an undeserved attention among the Catholics.

The only plausible answer in favor is in science in the actual science of virgin birth that most of Christ's genetic material was identical to Mary's. But if that is true, it doesn't explain Mary's contradictory behavior against Christ. They would at least be behaving quite similarly.

Or maybe there are scriptures telling a different story about Mary the mother we don't know about.

 

[Ken Behrens]

The issue is mostly politics in the early church. The church, for 1000 years more or less, was the Catholic Church. Even today, the mainliners still copy the Catholic order of worship, more or less, and we almost all copy their tradition of going to church on Sunday mornings and having a pastor in charge. Due to various events in the Roman Empire, by 400AD, the glory of Rome had been perceived as being delivered into Christian hands for the glory of God. The Church of Rome, once just another home church, had taken leadership of the government. To protect its power base, they needed to form a coalition of other Christian churches. Originally, each church was an independent home church, and had its own theological ideas, much like churches today. To make the coalition, the Church of Rome made deals with those churches that it could not suppress or conquer, and several of those churches held a belief in the superiority of Mary over all other humans. These political forces are what shaped the importance of Mary in the Catholic Church. It's that simple: roughly the same argument as why we celebrate Christmas in December, or have an Easter Bunny - It's all politics.

Why it stays this way is another issue. Certainly we are more educated now, so we can understand that there is no real purpose to it. The Catholic Church officially condemns the worship of Mary, but not too strongly most of the time, so few rank and file Catholics even seem to know about this. Studies have pointed out many connections to sexual issues. One is that if priests are in charge, but mostly women attend church, they must have a power to keep them there, and affirmation of the womanly identity is part of what Mary is all about. Another is a study I read some years ago, that the countries with the highest belief in Mary have the most ingrained cultural expectations that a married man should have a mistress. Yet another, is control of personal sexual desire, so the church may have more full time ministers, since the Catholic church also teaches that Mary never had sex, and that priests and nuns may not either.

Recall also, that although the Catholic Church does indeed teach the basic truths of salvation, that, they also depend heavily on human reason for Scriptural interpretation and theological development (which was the religion of ancient Rome, so politically required int he coalition). Did you know that Catholic ministers do not even begin their Bible training until they have a degree in philosophy? Most catholic theology and practice is eminently reasonable, as are all the arguments I gave above, but none of these arguments are Scriptural, and that is most of the problem. Reason is logical, but God is love, and love is not logical. The two are incompatible at the root. But to believe love is not logical enough to abandon trust in human logic, is an act of (guess what) faith. When you come right down to it, believing in Mary, like believing eucharistic transubstantiation is an act of "faith", but faith in human reason that developed such logical teachings. Once you learn to call "faith" confidence in human words, it is incredibly hard to hear anyone tell you of the other kind. You have already used up the word they need to use to explain it to you, on a false meaning. I think ultimately, that is why it stays that way. I also think that is why people like you, Himmevin, and me, start our catholic, mature, and then take the risk to set out to look for something better.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

The Mary Magdalene ironically have far more importance and understanding of Christ's ministry than the Mary Earthly mother of Christ.

Mary the mother even once called Christ a madman and Christ even goes to say that Mary is not family (because she does not believe) in the spiritual context.

There's a very tiny portion where Mary the Mother showed sympathy for Christ's ministry and that is only during crucifixion and the resurrection - the last few chapters of the Gospels only.

There's very little role of Mary the Earthly mother in Christ's ministry. She won't even be the first among the disciples, certainly the last one.


I could say Mary the mother is getting an undeserved attention among the Catholics.

The only plausible answer in favor is in science in the actual science of virgin birth that most of Christ's genetic material was identical to Mary's. But if that is true, it doesn't explain Mary's contradictory behavior against Christ. They would at least be behaving quite similarly.

Or maybe there are scriptures telling a different story about Mary the mother we don't know about.

I sure would like to see the scripture where Mary calls Jesus a madman. Please provide

 

[ViaCrucis]

I was raised Catholic, though I never really felt the urge to study its doctrine further than what I know now. I used to attend this fantastic Catholic Church, made some friends, we would study the doctrine (without the Bible!), sing and so on.

On one trip of ours to Lourdes, France, I asked the priest a couple of questions, things he couldn't really answer. I was about 15 or 16 years old and already starving for the truth and God. I remember saying "maybe once I die, I'll ask God the truth" little did I know that if I had stuck with that mentality, it could've been too late for me.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not here to bash any of you darlings, however, I seek proper understanding and reason regarding this false doctrine that trapped my family in it. Because of my conservative Catholic mother, I am unable to attend my type of Church and learn more about the Lord, therefore internet is the only place to go. I am trapped, and if I decide to go on a Sunday to Church, she attacks me believing I am in a cult because I don't pray to Mary -- to which I won't ever again.

My stay in Lourdes was short but somewhat pleasant, yet I felt dead inside. During the night, the priest suggested us to go to the chapel and pray to Mary with this repetitive prayer and on our knees for one hour or so, and done. Nothing changed, and I was left questioning myself more than before.

In this article from Carm.org, I found the following:

Spoiler

1. 1531, Guadalupe Mexico, appearance to Juan Diego.
   1. "Know, know for sure, my dearest, littlest, and youngest son, that I am the perfect and ever Virgin Holy Mary.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
   2. “I am truly your merciful Mother, yours and all the people who live united in this land and of all the other people of different ancestries, my lovers, who love me, those who seek me, those who trust in me. Here I will hear their weeping, their complaints and heal all their sorrows, hardships and sufferings.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
   3. “Am I not here, I, who am your Mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not the source of your joy? Are you not in the hollow of my mantle, in the crossing of my arms? Do you need anything more?(theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
2. 1917, Fatima, Portugal. In 1917 three children (Jacinto Marto, Lucia Santos, and Francisco Marto) said that an apparition of Mary appeared to them that was brighter than the sun.
   1. “Are you willing to offer yourselves to God to bear all the sufferings He wants to send you, as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and for the conversion of sinners?” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)
   2. "I will take Jacinta and Francisco shortly; but you will stay here for some time to come. Jesus wants to use you to make Me known and loved. He wishes to establish the devotion to My Immaculate Heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it; these souls will be dear to God, like flowers put by Me to adorn his throne," (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)
   3. “Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say often to Jesus, especially whenever you make a sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of Thee, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)

This last bit quoted "Do you need anything more?" is bothersome because it implies Mary is sufficient, and not Jesus. It's wrong and unbiblical, those are kind of things I never knew about because I never held the Bible in my hands until 2012.

So my question is why believe in this if proof is found in the Bible? Why do Catholics hate Protestants and other Christian denominations (not that's this specific part is important) when we agree that Jesus is Lord and our only Savior? You can even read more things regarding that here if anyone is interested. I'd like to see people's point of views and opinions.

Thank you and God bless

I'm not Roman Catholic but here's a few points:

1. CARM is a terrible site for information, it is exceptionally biased and one-sided. The only acceptable view on that site is Matt Slick's (the founder and runner of CARM) own particular ideas. If you want unbiased, objective information, look elsewhere.

2. It is my understanding that precisely no reported Marian apparition is considered binding upon Catholics. That is, Catholics are not required to believe them. Some are accepted, that is, one can be a Catholic in good standing and believe them, such as Our Lady of Fatima; while others are condemned by the Roman Catholic Church.

3. It says a lot that you grew up Catholic but never bothered to learn about your own faith, but have now accepted the claims of certain anti-Catholic sources. Wouldn't it be beneficial to learn about Catholic teaching from actual Catholic sources? Feel free to disagree with them, sure, but at least make an effort to know them.

4. Don't make the mistake in assuming your personal experience is an accurate reflection of all Catholics. I have known many Catholics who were raised with a Bible, and did have regular Bible study, and who are are well acquainted with Scripture. Back when I was an Evangelical I knew lots of kids who didn't have a Bible, and who didn't bother reading a Bible, lots of teenagers, and adults too. That's not a Catholic thing, that was just your experience.

Again, I'm not nor have I ever been Roman Catholic. But I have regularly found it surprising how much more I often find myself knowing about Catholicism than many former Catholics, but my knowledge of Catholicism is based on engaging practicing Catholics in dialogue, in reading Catholic sources as well as trying to find objective information. I was raised in a fairly anti-Catholic environment, or at least one in which Catholicism was regarded as suspect at best, and I heard all sorts of ideas that now as an adult I know better.

A couple of tips:

- if a source claims that Catholics use the crucifix because they still believe Jesus is dead, it's a bad source. Catholics believe that the Lord Jesus was crucified, buried, and then raised from the dead on the third day and that He presently sits at the right hand of God the Father like all Christians do.

- if a source claims that Catholicism is based on ancient Babylonian mystery religion, then it's basically just parroting the false claims made by Alexander Hislop in the 19th century (claims that, for the most part, he literally made up purely from his own imagination). Ditch it, bad source.

- if a source claims that Catholics worship an Egyptian "death cookie" then they have probably read too many Chick comic books, which are filled with nothing more than lies, fiction, and whatever crazy idea that Jack Chick dreams up in his head.

- if a source claims that the papal mitre is a "Dagon fish hat" see again to the Alexander Hislop nonsense.

- if a source claims the Pope's title is "Vicarius Fili Dei" then it's parroting some old anti-Catholic propiganda from the 18th century, that has never been one of the official titles for the papacy, the official ones have been (historically) Vicarius Petri (Vicar of St. Peter) and Vicarius Christi (Vicar of Christ).

There's more to be said in this vein, but the above should provide sufficient starting information to go on to avoid falling for misleading or downright false information--which is prolific and abundant on the internet.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Aldebaran]

I sure would like to see the scripture where Mary calls Jesus a madman. Please provide

Mark 3:21---"And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.”

 

[maryofoxford]

The Mary Magdalene ironically have far more importance and understanding of Christ's ministry than the Mary Earthly mother of Christ.

Mary the mother even once called Christ a madman and Christ even goes to say that Mary is not family (because she does not believe) in the spiritual context.

There's a very tiny portion where Mary the Mother showed sympathy for Christ's ministry and that is only during crucifixion and the resurrection - the last few chapters of the Gospels only.

There's very little role of Mary the Earthly mother in Christ's ministry. She won't even be the first among the disciples, certainly the last one.


I could say Mary the mother is getting an undeserved attention among the Catholics.

The only plausible answer in favor is in science in the actual science of virgin birth that most of Christ's genetic material was identical to Mary's. But if that is true, it doesn't explain Mary's contradictory behavior against Christ. They would at least be behaving quite similarly.

Or maybe there are scriptures telling a different story about Mary the mother we don't know about.

What have you been reading?? It certainly isn't the Bible. Also, to make an assumption like, "She won't even be the first among the disciples."? You're already too late; from the time of the incarnation (when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived our Lord) she already was THE first disciple, since she alone at that very moment knew and believed that she carried the Son of God within her! Scripture reads, "All nations will call me blessed." How exactly are you doing that here?? Mary NEVER displayed contradictory behavior toward her son and Lord.

 

[maryofoxford]

Mark 3:21---"And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.”

And...from this one sentence you've concluded that "family" means his own mother too?! Did it ever occur to you that the word, "family" used in that day and age, and in that area, might just possibly mean his step-brothers, or step-sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, second cousins, first cousins once removed, etc.?

In my life there's been a LOT of times that I've heard that phrase, "his/her family" and found that the people speaking it were only referring to a few relatives that just happened to be around at that time. I heard of jumping to a conclusion before, but this one takes such a huge leap that it's mind boggling.

 

[maryofoxford]

The issue is mostly politics in the early church. The church, for 1000 years more or less, was the Catholic Church. Even today, the mainliners still copy the Catholic order of worship, more or less, and we almost all copy their tradition of going to church on Sunday mornings and having a pastor in charge. Due to various events in the Roman Empire, by 400AD, the glory of Rome had been perceived as being delivered into Christian hands for the glory of God. The Church of Rome, once just another home church, had taken leadership of the government. To protect its power base, they needed to form a coalition of other Christian churches. Originally, each church was an independent home church, and had its own theological ideas, much like churches today. To make the coalition, the Church of Rome made deals with those churches that it could not suppress or conquer, and several of those churches held a belief in the superiority of Mary over all other humans. These political forces are what shaped the importance of Mary in the Catholic Church. It's that simple: roughly the same argument as why we celebrate Christmas in December, or have an Easter Bunny - It's all politics.

Why it stays this way is another issue. Certainly we are more educated now, so we can understand that there is no real purpose to it. The Catholic Church officially condemns the worship of Mary, but not too strongly most of the time, so few rank and file Catholics even seem to know about this. Studies have pointed out many connections to sexual issues. One is that if priests are in charge, but mostly women attend church, they must have a power to keep them there, and affirmation of the womanly identity is part of what Mary is all about. Another is a study I read some years ago, that the countries with the highest belief in Mary have the most ingrained cultural expectations that a married man should have a mistress. Yet another, is control of personal sexual desire, so the church may have more full time ministers, since the Catholic church also teaches that Mary never had sex, and that priests and nuns may not either.

Recall also, that although the Catholic Church does indeed teach the basic truths of salvation, that, they also depend heavily on human reason for Scriptural interpretation and theological development (which was the religion of ancient Rome, so politically required int he coalition). Did you know that Catholic ministers do not even begin their Bible training until they have a degree in philosophy? Most catholic theology and practice is eminently reasonable, as are all the arguments I gave above, but none of these arguments are Scriptural, and that is most of the problem. Reason is logical, but God is love, and love is not logical. The two are incompatible at the root. But to believe love is not logical enough to abandon trust in human logic, is an act of (guess what) faith. When you come right down to it, believing in Mary, like believing eucharistic transubstantiation is an act of "faith", but faith in human reason that developed such logical teachings. Once you learn to call "faith" confidence in human words, it is incredibly hard to hear anyone tell you of the other kind. You have already used up the word they need to use to explain it to you, on a false meaning. I think ultimately, that is why it stays that way. I also think that is why people like you, Himmevin, and me, start our catholic, mature, and then take the risk to set out to look for something better.

For one thing, the very idea that a person should only base their faith on feelings of "love" is so dangerous that I don't know where to begin. I have a close relative who has decided that God wants him to live a homosexual lifestyle and "marry another man" because he loves that man and God wouldn't have given him that feeling if He didn't want him to live that life! This is what basing your faith on feelings alone can get you. FYI, he was a non-denominational Christian and, yes, he used scripture to back it up!

When you got married did you only marry your wife based on feelings? You didn't take into account any facts like similar likes and dislikes? Beliefs in God? Morals? Ages? But, instead you married the first person that your heart went crazy over, even if she was your grade school teacher, or a married woman, etc. Somehow I doubt it.

I'm going to guess that you didn't attend a Catholic Seminary, I did. Seminarians aren't trained to be priests until they have their bachelors degree in something. It doesn't have to be Philosophy. Many enter after receiving the bachelors in all kinds of areas. Furthermore, even for those people that receive a degree in philosophy, they are required to take classes in scripture studies during this time. I know, because I was required to take those classes with them! Both Old Test. and New Test.; and the philosophy that is taught their is Christian philosophy! Which is vastly different from non-christian philosophy. Most seminaries that aren't Catholic also teach philosophy.

Everything that you've written is totally wrong, from beginning to end, and it would take pages to undue all of it. But, I can if you really need me to, recommend to you some excellent Catholic sources to correct your loads of misinformation.

In the meantime, please state all of your sources.

 

[Greg J.]

The following are some of what impacts me on this subject:

How highly a person exalts extra-Biblical thought and writing (compared to Scripture) has a huge amount to do with what they believe on this subject. It doesn't even make sense to me to discuss this subject with someone who holds extra-Biblical thought as high or higher than Scripture. About the only thing we could discuss is where extra-Biblical thought contradicts Scripture. Extra-Biblical writings deny Revelation 22:18-19. Also, I am not aware of any claims that something extra-Biblical is a part of the Word. (the Word was God from John 1:1).

While we grieve at all the division among protestants, there is one good thing about it: it has forced millions of Scripture-educated people to check and challenge each other's theology.

Scripture hardly talks about Mary, relatively speaking, and Scripture says nothing to indicate she has any more inherent purity or worth than anyone else—and Scripture does not exalt her. The reason she is called out as special has nothing to do with her, but rather has to do with who she gave birth to. It is similar to how Christians are all highly favored, because we have been joined with the Holy Spirit. Our value is not from "ourselves" (the old man), but because of who we are joined with. Mary is special because she gave birth Jesus, not because she was inherently special.

I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (Matthew 11:11, 1984 NIV)

John the Baptist was born a sinner.

I think the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was codified more than a thousand years after Jesus (although thought about it predated this). This doesn't have anything to do with the correctness of the doctrine, but does indicate it was far removed from what was important to the apostles in Scripture and the early church. Scripture is completely devoid of anything like "preaching Mary."

There is a big difference between official church doctrine, what individual pastors believe, and what individual congregants believe. There are many saved and also unsaved in all Christian denominations.

In the end what matters most is only what a person's heart condition is regarding Jesus Christ (as long as idolatries are not infringing on his rightful place there).

 

[maryofoxford]

I was raised Catholic, though I never really felt the urge to study its doctrine further than what I know now. I used to attend this fantastic Catholic Church, made some friends, we would study the doctrine (without the Bible!), sing and so on.

On one trip of ours to Lourdes, France, I asked the priest a couple of questions, things he couldn't really answer. I was about 15 or 16 years old and already starving for the truth and God. I remember saying "maybe once I die, I'll ask God the truth" little did I know that if I had stuck with that mentality, it could've been too late for me.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not here to bash any of you darlings, however, I seek proper understanding and reason regarding this false doctrine that trapped my family in it. Because of my conservative Catholic mother, I am unable to attend my type of Church and learn more about the Lord, therefore internet is the only place to go. I am trapped, and if I decide to go on a Sunday to Church, she attacks me believing I am in a cult because I don't pray to Mary -- to which I won't ever again.

My stay in Lourdes was short but somewhat pleasant, yet I felt dead inside. During the night, the priest suggested us to go to the chapel and pray to Mary with this repetitive prayer and on our knees for one hour or so, and done. Nothing changed, and I was left questioning myself more than before.

In this article from Carm.org, I found the following:

Spoiler

1. 1531, Guadalupe Mexico, appearance to Juan Diego.
   1. "Know, know for sure, my dearest, littlest, and youngest son, that I am the perfect and ever Virgin Holy Mary.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
   2. “I am truly your merciful Mother, yours and all the people who live united in this land and of all the other people of different ancestries, my lovers, who love me, those who seek me, those who trust in me. Here I will hear their weeping, their complaints and heal all their sorrows, hardships and sufferings.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
   3. “Am I not here, I, who am your Mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not the source of your joy? Are you not in the hollow of my mantle, in the crossing of my arms? Do you need anything more?(theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
2. 1917, Fatima, Portugal. In 1917 three children (Jacinto Marto, Lucia Santos, and Francisco Marto) said that an apparition of Mary appeared to them that was brighter than the sun.
   1. “Are you willing to offer yourselves to God to bear all the sufferings He wants to send you, as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and for the conversion of sinners?” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)
   2. "I will take Jacinta and Francisco shortly; but you will stay here for some time to come. Jesus wants to use you to make Me known and loved. He wishes to establish the devotion to My Immaculate Heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it; these souls will be dear to God, like flowers put by Me to adorn his throne," (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)
   3. “Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say often to Jesus, especially whenever you make a sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of Thee, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)

This last bit quoted "Do you need anything more?" is bothersome because it implies Mary is sufficient, and not Jesus. It's wrong and unbiblical, those are kind of things I never knew about because I never held the Bible in my hands until 2012.

So my question is why believe in this if proof is found in the Bible? Why do Catholics hate Protestants and other Christian denominations (not that's this specific part is important) when we agree that Jesus is Lord and our only Savior? You can even read more things regarding that here if anyone is interested. I'd like to see people's point of views and opinions.

Thank you and God bless

How very sad for you. I too was raised Catholic, but I read the Bible. Who stopped you? Anyone? (If your mother was so misinformed as to stop you, did you go to a Catholic Church and ask them if you could read the Bible?) Certainly your Catholic Church had a Religious Education Department. Did you go there or to your religious education instructor and ask them to answer your questions for you? Did you even take religious education!?

There's much that you're not telling, and it takes another person raised Catholic or even a Catholic convert to recognize that. In the Catholic Church it is required that each child take religious education instruction. If you go to a Catholic school it's a part of your regular studies. If you went to a public school it's part of your after school education, and is required in order to make your first communion and your confirmation. Did you attend these classes? If you did, did you bother paying attention and actually learning, or did you goof off? I taught religious education and I know how difficult it can be to get kids to pay attention. Unfortunately it sounds like you only went on pilgrimages for the fun of it and not to truly learn. The answer you said that you gave the priest was VERY disrespectful of any adult. It says a lot about your attitude at the time.

Often kids don't pay any attention to their faith until they're adults, and then they often look for answers on the internet and go onto any old site. Some sites can even be demonic. If you were Satan and your goal was to pull people away from our Lord what would you do? People love to have their "ears tickled". If you want the correct answers regarding what the Catholic Church believes than go to Catholic sites. You can go to www.biblechristiansociety.com, or Catholic.org, or Advent.org. Get a copy of the Catechism for Beginners, etc. I'd highly recommend that you also read the letters of the early church fathers. Just search for that on the internet. People seem to have no problem reading what people in this day have to say about the Bible and the church; but they fail to realize that there were other people that could read and write while the apostles lived that were also disciples. Just because their writings weren't considered the very word of God, doesn't mean that they didn't accurately record what the first church was doing and what the apostles of the Lord taught them to do and believe. Many of them exist, and can be read to this day. What they wrote helps clear up the meaning of the Scriptures. I'm pretty sure they had a better chance at understanding it's meaning right after our Lord ascended since they were taught by the apostle John himself, then we do now. I'd recommend that you read: The History of the Church by Eusubius. He was a Bishop in the early church and lived from ad 260-339. LONG before any splits had taken place in the Church. If you want something earlier, I'd recommend that you read, The Church of the Early Fathers, edited by Jurgens. This is a 3 volumn set that starts with writings from around ad 80 and continues to around ad 370 or so. These contain excerpts from their writings along with editorials on how they were found, their age, etc. But these are by no means all there is! I own a 40 vol. book set of the writings from this period, that can be read.

I too was taught by my non-Catholic friends, that only went by the Bible alone, that my church was doing things against the Bible. Trust me, there is nothing the Catholic Church believes as doctrine, that isn't found supported in the Bible. What I have found is that my non-Catholic friends aren't reading the entire Bible, because if we are to believe EVERYTHING in the Bible, than they should mean just that.
Tell me, what are the Traditions that the Bible tells us we are to follow? Why does Paul say that people should live celibate lifestyles, if they can? Why does Paul say that he is his disciples' father, if we are to call no man father? If we aren't to have graven images, why does God command Moses to make graven images? If we aren't to pray repetitious prayers than why, before He was arrested, is this exactly what the Bible says Jesus did? These are just some of the more common things that non-Catholics claim Catholics do that prove they aren't Christian. Perhaps people need to address these questions and others first?

I hope you check the Catholic sites out.

You won't even begin to understand the language used during the apparitions, at this point. The language used was translated from the common language of those people and hundreds of years ago. Common language changes every 20 yrs, so that makes it especially difficult to understand in today's culture. Also, it is true, the apparitions that you mentioned are not part of Catholic doctrine and a Catholic is not required to believe them.

I'll be praying for you.

 

[Stillicidia]

Jesus gave Mary to be the mother of John.

 

[maryofoxford]

The following are some of what impacts me on this subject:

How highly a person exalts extra-Biblical thought and writing (compared to Scripture) has a huge amount to do with what they believe on this subject. It doesn't even make sense to me to discuss this subject with someone who holds extra-Biblical thought as high or higher than Scripture. About the only thing we could discuss is where extra-Biblical thought contradicts Scripture. Extra-Biblical writings deny Revelation 22:18-19. Also, I am not aware of any claims that something extra-Biblical is a part of the Word. (the Word was God from John 1:1).

While we grieve at all the division among protestants, there is one good thing about it: it has forced millions of Scripture-educated people to check and challenge each other's theology.

Scripture hardly talks about Mary, relatively speaking, and Scripture says nothing to indicate she has any more inherent purity or worth than anyone else—and Scripture does not exalt her. The reason she is called out as special has nothing to do with her, but rather has to do with who she gave birth to. It is similar to how Christians are all highly favored, because we have been joined with the Holy Spirit. Our value is not from "ourselves" (the old man), but because of who we are joined with. Mary is special because she gave birth Jesus, not because she was inherently special.

I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (Matthew 11:11, 1984 NIV)

John the Baptist was born a sinner.

I think the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was codified more than a thousand years after Jesus (although thought about it predated this). This doesn't have anything to do with the correctness of the doctrine, but does indicate it was far removed from what was important to the apostles in Scripture and the early church. Scripture is completely devoid of anything like "preaching Mary."

There is a big difference between official church doctrine, what individual pastors believe, and what individual congregants believe. There are many saved and also unsaved in all Christian denominations.

In the end what matters most is only what a person's heart condition is regarding Jesus Christ (as long as idolatries are not infringing on his rightful place there).

I don't need to hold extra-Biblical though higher than he Bible. It is in the Bible itself that we are told that there is other thoughts that we are to hold equal to what is written in scripture. For example, Thes.2:15, "So then brother stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. 1 Cor.11:2, "I commend you in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you." 2 Thes.3:6, "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away form any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us."

So, according to the Bible there's other teachings that aren't in the Bible. What are they and where would you find them?

 

[Greg J.]

Good teaching and traditions are to honor God (sometimes corporately) and to promote behavior that is good for us. There is nothing about being a tradition that makes it like Scripture. (Baptism and Communion are not traditions since they are commands.) All Paul is saying is that the traditions he refers to are an aid to people's walk to knowing Jesus. He's certainly not stamping a seal of approval on all traditions everywhere.

Traditions can also can harm: typically by applying too much pressure on people to do things they don't want to do, which result in them fleeing the pressure—and Jesus Christ along with it. They can also harm terribly by directly or indirectly teaching things that are not true. By their fruit they can be judged: Has a tradition been an aid to transformed lives more into the likeness of Jesus? Or is it driving people away from Jesus or giving them a false sense or righteousness?

We are to judge what is from God himself and what is not with Scripture. We can do no less for traditions or anything extra-Biblical. This fact alone is reason to consider Scripture the highest authority available to us.

 

[farout]

I was raised Catholic, though I never really felt the urge to study its doctrine further than what I know now. I used to attend this fantastic Catholic Church, made some friends, we would study the doctrine (without the Bible!), sing and so on.

On one trip of ours to Lourdes, France, I asked the priest a couple of questions, things he couldn't really answer. I was about 15 or 16 years old and already starving for the truth and God. I remember saying "maybe once I die, I'll ask God the truth" little did I know that if I had stuck with that mentality, it could've been too late for me.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not here to bash any of you darlings, however, I seek proper understanding and reason regarding this false doctrine that trapped my family in it. Because of my conservative Catholic mother, I am unable to attend my type of Church and learn more about the Lord, therefore internet is the only place to go. I am trapped, and if I decide to go on a Sunday to Church, she attacks me believing I am in a cult because I don't pray to Mary -- to which I won't ever again.

My stay in Lourdes was short but somewhat pleasant, yet I felt dead inside. During the night, the priest suggested us to go to the chapel and pray to Mary with this repetitive prayer and on our knees for one hour or so, and done. Nothing changed, and I was left questioning myself more than before.

In this article from Carm.org, I found the following:

Spoiler

1. 1531, Guadalupe Mexico, appearance to Juan Diego.
   1. "Know, know for sure, my dearest, littlest, and youngest son, that I am the perfect and ever Virgin Holy Mary.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
   2. “I am truly your merciful Mother, yours and all the people who live united in this land and of all the other people of different ancestries, my lovers, who love me, those who seek me, those who trust in me. Here I will hear their weeping, their complaints and heal all their sorrows, hardships and sufferings.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
   3. “Am I not here, I, who am your Mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not the source of your joy? Are you not in the hollow of my mantle, in the crossing of my arms? Do you need anything more?(theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
2. 1917, Fatima, Portugal. In 1917 three children (Jacinto Marto, Lucia Santos, and Francisco Marto) said that an apparition of Mary appeared to them that was brighter than the sun.
   1. “Are you willing to offer yourselves to God to bear all the sufferings He wants to send you, as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and for the conversion of sinners?” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)
   2. "I will take Jacinta and Francisco shortly; but you will stay here for some time to come. Jesus wants to use you to make Me known and loved. He wishes to establish the devotion to My Immaculate Heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it; these souls will be dear to God, like flowers put by Me to adorn his throne," (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)
   3. “Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say often to Jesus, especially whenever you make a sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of Thee, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)

This last bit quoted "Do you need anything more?" is bothersome because it implies Mary is sufficient, and not Jesus. It's wrong and unbiblical, those are kind of things I never knew about because I never held the Bible in my hands until 2012.

So my question is why believe in this if proof is found in the Bible? Why do Catholics hate Protestants and other Christian denominations (not that's this specific part is important) when we agree that Jesus is Lord and our only Savior? You can even read more things regarding that here if anyone is interested. I'd like to see people's point of views and opinions.

Thank you and God bless

I think it is most important not to get my words or anyone else's words about Mary the physical mother of Jesus Christ. The Bible is Gods written WORD for us. Matthew, mark Luke and John are the four that address the Life of Jesus Christ as they witnessed Him on Earth and recorded His teachings. Only Matthew and Luke deal with the birth of Jesus Christ. The both tell of how the Holy spirit came upon her and how Jesus was put in her womb. Both Matthew and Luke record that Joseph married Mary so she would have no shame. They did not have any sexual contact until after Jesus was born. They both record the birth of Jesus and how Joseph was a step father to Jesus. The Gospels record that after Jesus was born, Mary and Joseph had other sons and daughters. Some did not believe Jesus was the Only Son of God until later in Jesus life.

Please note we should honor Mary for the most holy Spirit filled woman ever to live. God chose her to bare His only Son. By Mary being fully Human and Jesus being from God he was fully human and fully God. Jesus had to live a perfect life or he could not be the perfect Sacrificial Lamb to take away the sins of those who would become Followers of Him. Jesus paid the price for our sins on the cross dying for the sins of those who would follow Him as their Lord and Savior.

It is of most importance we do exactly as the Bible says about how and what we are to do with, for and to Mary. What does the Bible say about praying to Mary? Is Mary someone we should consider equal to Mary? here is the answer to those questions. We are NOT to pray to Mary, NO WHERE does it say we are to pray to ANYONE BUT JESUS CHRIST and FATHER GOD. To do is a very serious sin. Mary is a very special woman, she deserves our respect and we honor her for being His mother and the way she raised Gods Son/ Joseph also had a huge part in Gods plan. he taught Jesus to be a Godly man in the eyes of God. Both Mary and Joseph had an awesome job to do, one of the most trusted parents in all the world ever to be. We do not pray to Joseph or any one else either.

I do not go to my Doctors wife to ask her to ask him why I hurt in my side, do I? I go right to my doctor.

The Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant's of then and now totally disagree on this doctrine of Mary. They take all they say about Mary from material outside of the Bible. That is why we as Baptist are Protesting against the RRC. There is no way to bridge that gap. I accept it as it is. Do I respect Catholics? yes but we do not discuss why our faiths are different. I am not angry at the people, I truly have had friend that were special, and will always remain so. I am not trying to cause a division. But I acknowledge our real differences.

 

[Open Heart]

I was raised Catholic, though I never really felt the urge to study its doctrine further than what I know now. I used to attend this fantastic Catholic Church, made some friends, we would study the doctrine (without the Bible!), sing and so on.

On one trip of ours to Lourdes, France, I asked the priest a couple of questions, things he couldn't really answer. I was about 15 or 16 years old and already starving for the truth and God. I remember saying "maybe once I die, I'll ask God the truth" little did I know that if I had stuck with that mentality, it could've been too late for me.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not here to bash any of you darlings, however, I seek proper understanding and reason regarding this false doctrine that trapped my family in it. Because of my conservative Catholic mother, I am unable to attend my type of Church and learn more about the Lord, therefore internet is the only place to go. I am trapped, and if I decide to go on a Sunday to Church, she attacks me believing I am in a cult because I don't pray to Mary -- to which I won't ever again.

My stay in Lourdes was short but somewhat pleasant, yet I felt dead inside. During the night, the priest suggested us to go to the chapel and pray to Mary with this repetitive prayer and on our knees for one hour or so, and done. Nothing changed, and I was left questioning myself more than before.

In this article from Carm.org, I found the following:

Spoiler

1. 1531, Guadalupe Mexico, appearance to Juan Diego.
   1. "Know, know for sure, my dearest, littlest, and youngest son, that I am the perfect and ever Virgin Holy Mary.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
   2. “I am truly your merciful Mother, yours and all the people who live united in this land and of all the other people of different ancestries, my lovers, who love me, those who seek me, those who trust in me. Here I will hear their weeping, their complaints and heal all their sorrows, hardships and sufferings.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
   3. “Am I not here, I, who am your Mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not the source of your joy? Are you not in the hollow of my mantle, in the crossing of my arms? Do you need anything more?(theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordguad.html)
2. 1917, Fatima, Portugal. In 1917 three children (Jacinto Marto, Lucia Santos, and Francisco Marto) said that an apparition of Mary appeared to them that was brighter than the sun.
   1. “Are you willing to offer yourselves to God to bear all the sufferings He wants to send you, as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and for the conversion of sinners?” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)
   2. "I will take Jacinta and Francisco shortly; but you will stay here for some time to come. Jesus wants to use you to make Me known and loved. He wishes to establish the devotion to My Immaculate Heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it; these souls will be dear to God, like flowers put by Me to adorn his throne," (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)
   3. “Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say often to Jesus, especially whenever you make a sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of Thee, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.” (theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/words/wordfati.html)

This last bit quoted "Do you need anything more?" is bothersome because it implies Mary is sufficient, and not Jesus. It's wrong and unbiblical, those are kind of things I never knew about because I never held the Bible in my hands until 2012.

So my question is why believe in this if proof is found in the Bible? Why do Catholics hate Protestants and other Christian denominations (not that's this specific part is important) when we agree that Jesus is Lord and our only Savior? You can even read more things regarding that here if anyone is interested. I'd like to see people's point of views and opinions.

Thank you and God bless

I have three basic complaints with your post:

1. Catholics do not place Mary above all. As Pope John XXIII warned, “The Madonna is not pleased when she is put above her Son.”
2. No Catholic is required to say the Rosary or pray to any Saint, including Mary. It may be odd, but it is acceptable.
3. Catholics do not hate Protestants. Where do you get that idea from? We do of course consider Protestant denominations heretical for their teachings of Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

 

[Stillicidia]

Indiscriminately revising my posts,

Jesus gave Mary to be the mother of John.

 

[Open Heart]

I could say Mary the mother is getting an undeserved attention among the Catholics.

It is Mary the mother of our Lord who is blessed among women, not Mary Magdeline. It is because of her yes to God that Christ became incarnate and became the savior. Nothing that any other human being did compares to that.

 

[Open Heart]

Originally, each church was an independent home church, and had its own theological ideas, much like churches today.

Not true at all. The churches were united under the common teachings of the Apostles.

 

[Open Heart]

I'm against denominations. I think they're a waste of time. Read your bible, and listen to those who speak to the Holy Spirit.
If you can, speak to the Holy Spirit yourself. You don't need to add worrying about who thinks what, where, and why.
Jesus gave Mary to be the mother of John.

All a non-denominational Church is, is an independent church that isn't responsible to a larger body. It answers to the pastor, or to the board. It still has divisive interpretations.