Marriage and Nominal Christianity (article)

LinkH

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mkgal1, churches are so diverse and different in terms of the support they offer, so it's hard to generalize. If we are talking about why people who profess Christianity but don't go to church tend to divorce more often, I suspect physical abuse is probably not the main reason in terms of percentages of people who divorce. But that's just my guess based on my own set of life experiences.
 
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Dave-W

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My husband and I do not attend "church". ACTS 17.24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;"
The entire bible assumes God's people are together in assemblies. As CS Lewis put it, "The Bible knows nothing of solitary religion." By NOT being part of a local congregation you violate this command:

Heb 10.24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
 
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mkgal1

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mkgal1, churches are so diverse and different in terms of the support they offer, so it's hard to generalize. If we are talking about why people who profess Christianity but don't go to church tend to divorce more often, I suspect physical abuse is probably not the main reason in terms of percentages of people who divorce. But that's just my guess based on my own set of life experiences.

Why did you include the word "physical"? There are other abuses besides physical. I also included "addictions"---I wasn't focused on abuse.

You posted, "I think a lot of pastors deal with couples with marriage problems, and a lot of church people are willing to help, too".....and I responded with articles stating that's not the case (and it's not been my experience, either). The stats for abuse are the same whether or not a person is a member of a church (1 out of 4). I know of many women (and a few men) that are now not attending church because when life actually hit them.....their church staff didn't have any answers for them (and made their burdens even heavier to carry). I'm not saying that's ALL churches....because I do know of a hand full of churches (now) that have a different perspective (but it's few and far between). By then.....it's too late for a lot of people (as VG's post describes).
 
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LinkH

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mkgal1,
Psychologists and counselors don't have all the answers, either.

I remember reading about Teen Challenge and the adult program that grew out of it under World Challenge. David Wilkerson, a pastor in Pennsylvania, read an article about Life magazine about gangs in New York. He went there to help. He ended up starting a drug rehab program. His program had really high rates of recovery compared to the secular ones.

Teen Challenged focused on things like getting saved, getting baptized with the Holy Ghost, and putting God first. I know they have a whole treatment program with group meetings. I talked to someone who had been to World Challenge for anger management and left early because he had to support his family. (As I got to know him, I didn't see he had a serious anger management problem, but he did seem gullible enough to be convinced by others around him that he did. Maybe he did before and I didn't see it after he got out of their program when I knew him.)
 
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mkgal1

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mkgal1,
Psychologists and counselors don't have all the answers, either.
I've never said they do. It's not one group against another.

I admired David Wilkerson and his ministry, BTW. From what I could tell from what I had read---he had a great understanding and love for people (especially those that many people would choose to "throw away" and label as "worthless"). He seemed to beautifully demonstrate that treating the 'least of these" with love and equality is what separates the goats from the sheep.

There's a very similar ministry in California now---it's called Homeboy Ministries run by Fr. Greg Boyle: http://www.homeboyindustries.org/

IMO.....it's all about "what spirit" and what sort of perception of God a ministry is focused on. When there are results like what Wilkerson and Fr. Boyle have seen (genuine and long-standing transformations)......I'd say it's God's spirit that's participating. Results like that are *not* nominal Christianity.
 
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mkgal1

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Oh....and some examples of "Nominal Christianity"? How about movies like God is Not Dead and War Room? IMO....those are excellent examples of nominal Christianity (and they seem to be well-received in large numbers). For instance.... the entire movie of God is Not Dead suggests that if the two main characters (it's been a long time since I've seen it---I just remember the basic premise) would just have faith, things they ask for (like their car starting) will be granted them (really?). It's like God is presented just like a Genie in a Bottle. And in War Room.....when the two women were almost victims of a mugging, but they thwarted the mugger-- that had a knife-- with the words, "Put down the knife in Jesus' name" (I don't think I'm going to suggest that to my daughter as a self-defense tactic).
 
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RedPonyDriver

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Oh....and some examples of "Nominal Christianity"? How about movies like God is Not Dead and War Room? IMO....those are excellent examples of nominal Christianity (and they seem to be well-received in large numbers). For instance.... the entire movie of God is Not Dead suggests that if the two main characters (it's been a long time since I've seen it---I just remember the basic premise) would just have faith, things they ask for (like their car starting) will be granted them (really?). It's like God is presented just like a Genie in a Bottle. And in War Room.....when the two women were almost victims of a mugging, but they thwarted the mugger-- that had a knife-- with the words, "Put down the knife in Jesus' name" (I don't think I'm going to suggest that to my daughter as a self-defense tactic).

OH MY GOSH...those are just two of an endless line of HORRIBLE movies foisted off on the Christian community. I've noticed that just about anyone can slap together something utterly banal, stick a couple of scripture verses in it, call it "Christian" and it'll sell like hotcakes to that particular community...and people wonder why I detest CCM with a bloody blue passion...I mean, the bubble gum dreck just can't compare to real music...
 
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RedPonyDriver

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Exactly! There's a lot of music that's not branded as Christian that I can recognize a lot more of God's attributes in rather than what *is* branded as "Christian". Bono (U2) for instance.

Kansas - LeftOverture has a bunch of biblical themes, starting with Carry On Wayward Son. Then there's Dust In the Wind, Questions of My Childhood...

Metallica has a few Christian themed songs.

Lynyrd Skynyrd - Simple Man and others

Just listen...there's a bunch of good stuff...but I would suggest the Classic Rock stations.

I will say some of the CCM is getting better...I will listen to Third Day...but that's about it. I grew up on the droning organ and hymns sung by some soprano who thought she was at La Scala or the Met...it was horrid. I have played in P&W bands over the years...it was ok but ultimately not nearly as satisfying as playing in the bar bands I was in when I was in college. The P&W bands just threw something together an hour before church...the bar bands...SERIOUS practice night after night.

Yeah...CCM, "Christian Movies" and most "Christian books" just utterly stink...not worth the money. I'd rather shell out for the rest of the Discworld collection or the Pern collection, or anything by Clive Cussler than blow money on "Christian" anything.
 
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LinkH

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Oh....and some examples of "Nominal Christianity"? How about movies like God is Not Dead and War Room? IMO....those are excellent examples of nominal Christianity (and they seem to be well-received in large numbers). For instance.... the entire movie of God is Not Dead suggests that if the two main characters (it's been a long time since I've seen it---I just remember the basic premise) would just have faith, things they ask for (like their car starting) will be granted them (really?). It's like God is presented just like a Genie in a Bottle. And in War Room.....when the two women were almost victims of a mugging, but they thwarted the mugger-- that had a knife-- with the words, "Put down the knife in Jesus' name" (I don't think I'm going to suggest that to my daughter as a self-defense tactic).

I wouldn't be surprised if that were based on some kind of real incident. I've heard testimonies like that.

Overall, I really appreciated War Room. I thought it was a good movie with a really good message, and better than a lot of other films from this group.
 
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LinkH

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Kansas - LeftOverture has a bunch of biblical themes, starting with Carry On Wayward Son. Then there's Dust In the Wind, Questions of My Childhood...

I had a friend who was a Kansas fan who said this was 'searching music.' The guitarist became a Christian after some of these songs came out.
 
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mkgal1

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I wouldn't be surprised if that were based on some kind of real incident. I've heard testimonies like that.

Well, yes, I'm sure there are loads of testimonies like that. In fact, I believe there's a whole page (or section of a web site....not sure) that's devoted to a lot of testimonies of people that experienced answered prayer *because* of setting up their "War Rooms" and "getting serious" about praying.

This is just my opinion---and maybe I'm extremely cynical--but that's just not my variety of Christianity. I know a few people that grew up with that flavor of faith---and they were let down (loss of homes....loss of jobs....loss of spouse to death....loss of child....etc) and since that was the only version of God they knew....they lost their faith in God in the process. We live in a fallen world---and I don't see it as probable that we're going to avoid awful things (no matter how hard or earnestly we pray). To me.....it's more about seeing good (which is all from God and His goodness) contrasted with the awful (and even finding some good IN the awful).
 
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RedPonyDriver

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Well, yes, I'm sure there are loads of testimonies like that. In fact, I believe there's a whole page (or section of a web site....not sure) that's devoted to a lot of testimonies of our people experienced answered prayer *because* of setting up their "War Rooms" and "getting serious" about praying.

This is just my opinion---and maybe I'm extremely cynical--but that's just not my variety of Christianity. I know a few people that grew up with that flavor of faith---and they were let down (loss of homes....loss of jobs....loss of spouse to death....loss of child....etc) and since that was the only version of God they knew....they lost their faith in God in the process. We live in a fallen world---and I don't see it as probable that we're going to avoid awful things (not matter how hard or earnestly we pray). To me.....it's more about seeing good (which is all from God and His goodness) contrasted with the awful (and even finding some good IN the awful).

I call that "God as cosmic Santa Claus" Christianity. Jesus told us how to pray "...thy will be done..." right? So, instead of praying for what WE want (see Santa Claus), pray for the Lord's will to be done in a certain situation. I mean...I've experienced some REAL crummy stuff and all I could pray was "thy will be done"...because it wasn't about what I wanted...it was about letting God handle the situation in accordance with his perfect plan. Sometimes it was NOT what I wanted...well, many times it wasn't what I wanted...but...down the road, I began to understand why certain things happened...and how God was using those experiences in my life to strengthen my faith or be able to minister to someone else going through that situation and really be able to empathize with them...or whatever...

That type of Christianity, I believe, is an immature faith. Our church family just went through something VERY hard...one of our pastors was killed in a car accident. It's easy to pout and scream and wonder why the drunk kid who caused the accident didn't get killed when the pastor did...but...it's hard to do what we as a church are doing...embracing the young man and his family and offering them the love and forgiveness of Christ to them. So...maybe God is using this horrible situation to bring the young man and his family to Him. I pray this is so...and I will be rejoicing with the saints if they do come to Christ.
 
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LinkH

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This is just my opinion---and maybe I'm extremely cynical--but that's just not my variety of Christianity. I know a few people that grew up with that flavor of faith---and they were let down (loss of homes....loss of jobs....loss of spouse to death....loss of child....etc) and since that was the only version of God they knew....they lost their faith in God in the process. We live in a fallen world---and I don't see it as probable that we're going to avoid awful things (no matter how hard or earnestly we pray). To me.....it's more about seeing good (which is all from God and His goodness) contrasted with the awful (and even finding some good IN the awful).

What variety of Christianity is that? The variety that actually believes 'whatsoever ye ask in prayer believing, ye shall receive'? It has been a while since I have seen the movie, but I did not get the impression that the movie's message was that those who pray and believe will experience no hardship. What your post above sounds like to me is a 'que sera sera' attitude.

Prayer seems to me to be a very 'synergistic' activity, in which one cooperates with God, something through which the Lord chooses to bring about His will in many cases. I've seen some very specific answers to prayer.
 
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mkgal1

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That type of Christianity, I believe, is an immature faith. Our church family just went through something VERY hard...one of our pastors was killed in a car accident. It's easy to pout and scream and wonder why the drunk kid who caused the accident didn't get killed when the pastor did...but...it's hard to do what we as a church are doing...embracing the young man and his family and offering them the love and forgiveness of Christ to them. So...maybe God is using this horrible situation to bring the young man and his family to Him. I pray this is so...and I will be rejoicing with the saints if they do come to Christ.

I agree (that it's an immature faith---one that's based on what has been passed on from others--most likely, but not actually experienced or lived out).

Sorry to hear about your pastor....but what a testimony (a true demonstration of love and grace) in your church's response.
 
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mkgal1

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What variety of Christianity is that? The variety that actually believes 'whatsoever ye ask in prayer believing, ye shall receive'?
I don't believe that means what you think it means.

Think of Genesis 3:5.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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What variety of Christianity is that? The variety that actually believes 'whatsoever ye ask in prayer believing, ye shall receive'?

So...I can pray and believe that God will give me a brand new GT350, a 4 car garage and an unlimited credit line to American Muscle...and God will give it to me? COOL! I'll get right on that!
 
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mkgal1

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Oh.....RPD....it needs to be a noble thing....you know, like peace within a denomination....or no divisions in churches (you know....the things that I'm certain have been fervently prayed for for millennium). What's the answer for that? Did all those people NOT have enough faith? Does God NOT want unity....even though it seems to be the common thread all throughout the Bible? What is the answer to that?

Link....have you never had a loved one (young and otherwise healthy---experience something like a car accident) hanging on to life and had hundreds/thousands of people sincerely praying for them....yet they still passed away?
 
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RedPonyDriver

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Oh.....RPD....it needs to be a noble thing....you know, like peace within a denomination....or no divisions in churches (you know....the things that I'm certain have been fervently prayed for for millennium).

Rats! You mean I can't pray for a new car and stuff? Darn...takes away all my faith there :prayer::scratch:

Link....have you never had a loved one (young and otherwise healthy---like a car accident) hanging on to life and had hundreds or thousands of people sincerely praying for them....yet they still passed away?

That usually gets answered with "God's will"...but if you can twist God's will around because of "fervent prayer and belief" then why is it suddenly "God's will" that the person died? Makes NO sense at all...and why I figure praying "thy will be done" is a better idea. We don't know if God's will is to heal that person or take them to be with Him so we pray that God's will be done, and we're ok with that...ya know?
 
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mkgal1

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Right.....the "God's will" part is pretty troublesome---a lot of the time. I don't believe it's ever His "will" that people die (but that's not going to change any time soon...not until He restores His kingdom).

IMV.....since we live in a fallen and sinful world...and God has given us free will...there are things that happen that are far outside of His will. It's the beauty/ugliness of "free will".....but it wouldn't be genuine love without it.

He's never going to divorce consequences from harmful behavior (like habitual drug use). The beauty of that is how it can lead a person to a clean and sober (and even "abundant") life.

When we set things up in our minds that He is that "Santa in Heaven".....we're no different than the people in the OT that had a god for everything (a god of water.....a god of sun......a god of fertility.....etc).
 
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