Mandatory punishment for women who abort.

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Fenny the Fox

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Ok, I've seen like 4 people do this and I just have to say something...

PERsecution - When a person is targeted due to a personal or social factor (religion, race, gender, etc) and efforts are made to humilate, degrade, demean, or remove them or whatever said personal or social factor from society and culture. Examples include Romans vs. Christians, Puritans vs. "Witches," Hitler vs. Jews/homosexuals/single parents/transiants/Poland... It is a social or cultural punishment for non-conformity to a group or percieved norm.

PROsecution - a legal proceeding carried out against a person or persons believed to have broken the law, where the accused has the option to defend themselves or their actions in a court of law where the end result is determining guilt, innocence, or liability. It is a government or legal action as the result of the suspected breaking of a law.

They are not interchangable.

No, they are not. But I meant PERsecution, in the vein of discrimination.


By admitting to having an illegal abortion, one would put themselves at risk for both prosecution as well as persecution.
In either case, the social damage done to that individual afterwards can only best be described as "persecution".


As well, my word choice could have been interpreted as an implication that I feel abortion is not a deplorable atrocity as the laws against it would make it out to be. And therefore that any prosecution of that individual would be due to discrimination based on personal decision - persecution.


Take your pick as to which was meant by my use of "persecution".
 
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jayem

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Maybe we should have mandatory punishment for men who abandon women they have impregnated.

Sounds good to me :)


I could see a fine, with some of the money going towards child support. But don't lock them up. Better to keep them in the workplace with their wages attached to pay their support obligations.
 
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CreedIsChrist

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Honestly no I don't since at least for me how I view children is not based off of if another person chooses to be pregnant or not, or chooses to maintain an unplanned pregnancy. My value system for a child doesn't depend on the value system of others. I tend to suspect if it doesn't workk that way for other people they should probably rethink a few things.



Do not lump all mothers and the whole of motherhood for judgment based off of those who choose not to be mothers. I know a ton of beautiful, wonderful, amazing mothers. Their ability to be a good mother does not depend on somebody else's family dynamic. It also makes no sense to say that you can't properly care for children because somebody else gets an abortion. Somebody will be a good or bad mother regardless of if somebody else gets an abortion. One's parenting skills do not have anything to do with somebody else getting an abortion. What you're essentially telling women is that if you become pregnant and ahve a child you are a terrible mother who can't properly care for kids because abortion is legal, not taking into account that here you have a woman who had a child, not an abortion.
Yes, but society and culture influences people. You honestly think that abortion has not effected the state of motherhood in no way at all??

Take a look at the illegitimacy and divorce statistics when abortion was legalized. You will find quite a surprise.

So yes, abortion does have a "ripple effect" in today's society and the state of motherhood. Roe v Wade was like a huge stone being thrown into a lake. The calm waters representing the whole of families across the country. Abortion has brought waves of turmoil and instability towards future families. Abortion pits mothers against their children. And with that type of mindset being pushed in secular society it obviously is gonna have a social effect on people and the state of motherhood.

Abortion has an enormous effect on motherhood. Especially in areas where abortion propaganda is more accepted. In the US the state of motherhood is awful and embarrassing.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Yes, but society and culture influences people. You honestly think that abortion has not effected the state of motherhood in no way at all??

I think that abortion doesn't influence the ability of mothers who choose to be mothers or is somehow a cause for bad parenting.

You make it sound like women are horrible creatures who'll either murder their kids, or keep them and be awful mothers because the option to get an abortion was there. It makes no sense. There is no willing for women or mothers.

Take a look at the illegitimacy and divorce statistics when abortion was legalized. You will find quite a surprise.

1973 was also the year US withdrew from involvement of a major war, was when "Dark Side of the Moon" was released, the year the Dolphins had their perfect season, the DEA was founded, Stockholm Syndrom came to be named, homosexuality was no longer classified as a mental illness, and there were 3 major aircraft incidents at Logan airport. Perhaps the determining that the state's laws on abortion were unconstitutional was the cause?

Though I did some research... The major change in divorce statistics occured in the 1950s and 1960s, a clear 10-20 years before Roe v. Wade. The change in divorce occured in 1960 with the introduction of no-fault divorce laws and the changing of laws that stated divorce could only be due to abuse, mental disability, or adultery, and the introduction by the ABA of family law. The final big change in divorce laws came in the early 1980s when welfare reform included and required child support.

And I found divorce statistics... The peak years of divorce in the US were from 1965-1969, before the RvW. Divorce rates in the 1970s and 80s were low, late 80s-mid 90s another high, and early 2000s through 2005, the last year of reporting, were low again. I wish I could link the article but unfortunately in the comments section a poster has an offensive avatar.

So yes, abortion does have a "ripple effect" in today's society and the state of motherhood. Roe v Wade was like a huge stone being thrown into a lake. The calm waters representing the whole of families across the country. Abortion has brought waves of turmoil and instability towards future families. Abortion pits mothers against their children. And with that type of mindset being pushed in secular society it obviously is gonna have a social effect on people and the state of motherhood.

The waters of family life were not at all calm during the 1950s and 1960s... Marital abuse was at an all time high, I shouldn't have to tell you about the massive cultural revolutions of the 60s, the instability in government and society... I don't know where people get this idea that the 1950s-60s were when women wore heels and pearls, called their husbands "sir," and had dinner ready every night so they could eat as a family.

In actuality, women worked (the 60s and 70s actually saw women working at rates not seen since WWII), women were away from home, when the war and draft started there was a resurgance of latch-key kids, the economy was crumbling, people hated their government, civil rights issues were dividing the country, it was a very scary time. The TV shows that people take, for reasons passing understanding, as a documentary on how "the way things were" were responses to the extreme stress and instability of the time and is really indicative of a trend that's come up during every US crisis where the entertainment people turn to is simple, nostalgic, and lighthearted. It's not a sampling of how life was at the time. During WWII you saw a lot of it too, a huge wave of slapstick comedies, movies featuring family unity, upbeat music, generally lighthearted literature...

I'm always shocked at just how little people know about US history and how many people turn to TV as a source of truth on "how things were." God help us all if in 30 years people think "Friends" and "Seinfeld" are shows that depicted what average American life was like.

Abortion has an enormous effect on motherhood. Especially in areas where abortion propaganda is more accepted. In the US the state of motherhood is awful and embarrassing.

I think it's attitudes like that which do more to drive women to abortion then prevent it. Abort and be a murderer, or don't abort and have a child and contribute to the awful and embarrassing state of motherhood in the US. Darned if you do, darned if you don't. The only common thread here is that mothers, if they choose to be mothers or choose to abort, are failures, disappointments, embarrasments, and don't care about their kids.

And I notice we haven't mentioned how fathers contribute to this or the role of fatherhood in the US. Though I don't need to ask, I already know. Men can't be great fathers as long as women persist in being such horrible creatures who hate children.

I think the issue here has stopped being one of abortion and motherhood, but a general contempt for all women justified by the existence of abortion.
 
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CreedIsChrist

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I think that abortion doesn't influence the ability of mothers who choose to be mothers or is somehow a cause for bad parenting.

You make it sound like women are horrible creatures who'll either murder their kids, or keep them and be awful mothers because the option to get an abortion was there. It makes no sense. There is no willing for women or mothers.



1973 was also the year US withdrew from involvement of a major war, was when "Dark Side of the Moon" was released, the year the Dolphins had their perfect season, the DEA was founded, Stockholm Syndrom came to be named, homosexuality was no longer classified as a mental illness, and there were 3 major aircraft incidents at Logan airport. Perhaps the determining that the state's laws on abortion were unconstitutional was the cause?

Though I did some research... The major change in divorce statistics occured in the 1950s and 1960s, a clear 10-20 years before Roe v. Wade. The change in divorce occured in 1960 with the introduction of no-fault divorce laws and the changing of laws that stated divorce could only be due to abuse, mental disability, or adultery, and the introduction by the ABA of family law. The final big change in divorce laws came in the early 1980s when welfare reform included and required child support.

And I found divorce statistics... The peak years of divorce in the US were from 1965-1969, before the RvW. Divorce rates in the 1970s and 80s were low, late 80s-mid 90s another high, and early 2000s through 2005, the last year of reporting, were low again. I wish I could link the article but unfortunately in the comments section a poster has an offensive avatar.



The waters of family life were not at all calm during the 1950s and 1960s... Marital abuse was at an all time high, I shouldn't have to tell you about the massive cultural revolutions of the 60s, the instability in government and society... I don't know where people get this idea that the 1950s-60s were when women wore heels and pearls, called their husbands "sir," and had dinner ready every night so they could eat as a family.

In actuality, women worked (the 60s and 70s actually saw women working at rates not seen since WWII), women were away from home, when the war and draft started there was a resurgance of latch-key kids, the economy was crumbling, people hated their government, civil rights issues were dividing the country, it was a very scary time. The TV shows that people take, for reasons passing understanding, as a documentary on how "the way things were" were responses to the extreme stress and instability of the time and is really indicative of a trend that's come up during every US crisis where the entertainment people turn to is simple, nostalgic, and lighthearted. It's not a sampling of how life was at the time. During WWII you saw a lot of it too, a huge wave of slapstick comedies, movies featuring family unity, upbeat music, generally lighthearted literature...

I'm always shocked at just how little people know about US history and how many people turn to TV as a source of truth on "how things were." God help us all if in 30 years people think "Friends" and "Seinfeld" are shows that depicted what average American life was like.



I think it's attitudes like that which do more to drive women to abortion then prevent it. Abort and be a murderer, or don't abort and have a child and contribute to the awful and embarrassing state of motherhood in the US. Darned if you do, darned if you don't. The only common thread here is that mothers, if they choose to be mothers or choose to abort, are failures, disappointments, embarrasments, and don't care about their kids.

And I notice we haven't mentioned how fathers contribute to this or the role of fatherhood in the US. Though I don't need to ask, I already know. Men can't be great fathers as long as women persist in being such horrible creatures who hate children.

I think the issue here has stopped being one of abortion and motherhood, but a general contempt for all women justified by the existence of abortion.


I was more talking about before 1930, before BC. The divorce rate was below 10%. The 50s-60s aren't really the example I was trying to propose.

I do think no-fault divorce had a great impact on the outcomes of Roe v Wade. As both attack the core elements of the families. So yes, you are correct, no-fault divorce was a great factor. However no-fault divorce was inevitably tied into Roe v Wade later. As the family moral became looser and ethics started to break, Roe V Wade was then just another act to push the line even further to family ruin with no-fault divorce and Birth control as it's platforms.

It reminds me of the theory of the frog in the water. Put it in hot water and it jumps out. However slowly turn up the heat and the frog still stays in. The same is today with family values and ethics. Back then the things we do today would be an outrage and such acts would be driven out of the community. But when it is slowly imposed on society in little steps(coitus interruptus, then Birth control, then divorce, then no-fault, then abortion, then gay marriage) society doesn't "jump out" quickly since the ethics in family are falling in small degrees, and hence people just don't notice it. I think the reason why you support what you do(and many others on this forum), is simply because you have been in that hot water for such a long time, that you view it as luke-warm and harmless.
 
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Belk

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I was more talking about before 1930, before BC. The divorce rate was below 10%. The 50s-60s aren't really the example I was trying to propose.

I do think no-fault divorce had a great impact on the outcomes of Roe v Wade. As both attack the core elements of the families. So yes, you are correct, no-fault divorce was a great factor. However no-fault divorce was inevitably tied into Roe v Wade later. As the family moral became looser and ethics started to break, Roe V Wade was then just another act to push the line even further to family ruin with no-fault divorce and Birth control as it's platforms.

It reminds me of the theory of the frog in the water. Put it in hot water and it jumps out. However slowly turn up the heat and the frog still stays in. The same is today with family values and ethics. Back then the things we do today would be an outrage and such acts would be driven out of the community. But when it is slowly imposed on society in little steps(coitus interruptus, then Birth control, then divorce, then no-fault, then abortion, then gay marriage) society doesn't "jump out" quickly since the ethics in family are falling in small degrees, and hence people just don't notice it. I think the reason why you support what you do(and many others on this forum), is simply because you have been in that hot water for such a long time, that you view it as luke-warm and harmless.

Wait, what? You think that the fall of modern society is a slippery slope leading from premature [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]?
 
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jayem

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I do think no-fault divorce had a great impact on the outcomes of Roe v Wade. As both attack the core elements of the families. So yes, you are correct, no-fault divorce was a great factor. However no-fault divorce was inevitably tied into Roe v Wade later. As the family moral became looser and ethics started to break, Roe V Wade was then just another act to push the line even further to family ruin with no-fault divorce and Birth control as it's platforms.

But it wasn't all rosy in the days before no-fault divorce. When someone had to be proven at "fault" for ruining a marriage, couples would frequently distort facts, lie, and engage in character assassination and all manner of vicious attacks on each other. It was precisely because divorce litigation was so rife with perjury, fraud, and collusion, that no-fault procedures were adopted.

I don't have any data, but I doubt that making divorce hard to get significantly encouraged couples to reconcile. I think it just forced them either to separate, or to live together being miserable and hating each other. Neither of which promoted healthy family life.
 
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Fantine

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Times of transition are times of great stress to society.

And what happened with no-fault divorce and birth control was that the rules were changed without providing the underlying support to strengthen marriages.

I'm sure that there have been unhappy marriages since the days of Adam and Eve, but financial factors--the inability of women to earn a living, a dozen children to feed and clothe, etc.--prevented couples from getting divorced.

And that might not mean that they were the "good old days." They might have been "bad old days" for many, different from "bad new days" but still bad.

What we should all want is the ideal--not a return to the bad old days, but a society where men and women stay together because they love one another, respect one another as equals, and communicate effectively. A society where men and women view children as a gift and as a sacred trust, a responsibility they lovingly undertake when they are mature enough and capable enough to raise them well. A society where opportunities for women are abundant (and where both men and women can find jobs where they are treated fairly and earn adequate wages.)

Churches can help provide some of those underpinnings--programs like Marriage Encounter, Retrouvaille, Rainbows for God's Children, etc. can help.

But looking for a return to the bad old days won't.
 
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SmileAndAHandshake

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Women who have been found to have undergone abortion should be held as accomplices to murder, maybe conspirators as well, and then punished according to our preexisting laws on the subject.

If I really feel abortion is murder, then it necessarily follows that the people responsible for the murder ought to be punished. Retributive punishment will deter and influence women away from baby-producing activities, and hopefully reduce the amount of abortions.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this issue.

You wanna forcibly punish abortive mothers, and I wanna forcibly punish people who wanna forcibly punish abortive mothers. I guess we both have thoughts that will never come to fruition ;)



If I really feel abortion is murder

Which is fine, I can respect that. That's your opinion... and therein lies the problem, because not everyone agrees with that opinion. I'm one of them.

I have no issues saying if I get pregnant, I'm getting an abortion (I'm child-free, I do not want children). Luckily we've taken the responsible sterilization course of action, but still.. it could happen, and I'm prepared to take that step. It's my body, my choice, you can keep your law-paws off my rights and my body, thank you. :angel:

Abortions aren't illegal. Hard to get in some places due to high costs (when the people who need them most often have low incomes), sure... controversial just about everywhere? Sure! But not illegal. Equating abortion with murder is an opinion. And laws aren't based on opinions, thank goodness.
 
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b&wpac4

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I was more talking about before 1930, before BC. The divorce rate was below 10%. The 50s-60s aren't really the example I was trying to propose.

"Oh no, the world is no longer based on my particular sect of religion's point of view"

Imagine how much fun it was for Jewish couples when it was nearly illegal to be divorced, yet their religion clearly allowed for it. Nice.
 
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Keres

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It is a valid question.

If you consider abortion to be murder, then

A) how do you investigate/convict?

and

B) how do you punish?


I know at least 8 ways to induce a miscarriage using herbs I can grow in my garden. Medically, there is no way to determine if the miscarriage was natural, intentional, or accidental.

Making abortions illegal won't stop them, just stop them from being done safely. Some of the countries in which abortions are illegal have the highest abortion rates in the world. They also have considerably higher death tolls from childbirth/pregnancy complications.

It's not hard to see that forced-birthers do not value women as people.
 
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Caitlin.ann

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Just my thoughts on a subject.

If we consider abortion to be morally wrong on the level of murder, then it logically extends that we ought to punish the mother if she was complicit in the abortion process.

I got to thinking how law enforcement officials could prove beyong a reasonable doubt that an abortion had taken place, and the only conclusion I could come to is that women should be mandated to recieve maybe quarterly examinations of their uterus, under threat of jail if they refuse. Or maybe make pregnant women register and then if they "miscarry" then an exam will be ordered.

Women who have been found to have undergone abortion should be held as accomplices to murder, maybe conspirators as well, and then punished according to our preexisting laws on the subject.

If I really feel abortion is murder, then it necessarily follows that the people responsible for the murder ought to be punished. Retributive punishment will deter and influence women away from baby-producing activities, and hopefully reduce the amount of abortions.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this issue.
All I have to say is if someone ever tries to control me like you're implying and my reproductive health they will end up just short of six feet under.
 
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OliviaD

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I think this is absolutely ridiculous and I sure hope this is a joke. Life is precious, and there are many ways to protect it, but prosecuting women is not the right way. Quarterly examinations of the uterus? I feel that would cause many women to mutilate themselves with unnecessary surgeries to physically destroy their means to procreation, just to spare themselves the gross humiliation. What about those who want no children? Are they forced to endure the humiliation of imposing procedures every few months? Requiring women to be entered on a pregnancy list to be interrogated after a miscarriage is horrifically cruel. If you want to end abortion you educate your young men not to request sex from unmarried girls and you teach your girls about purity. Urge purity. Urge abstinence. Provide realistic options in case something goes wrong, like adoption. This thread is just horrible.
 
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Keres

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Urge purity. Urge abstinence. Provide realistic options in case something goes wrong, like adoption. This thread is just horrible.


Here is a better idea, one that actually has been demonstrated to, you know, WORK:

Teach safe sex and make birth control readily available with no stigma!
 
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I see your points, but I have to ask, do you believe abortion is the same or worse than murder? Should it be considered so legally?

You don't give enough options for anyone to answer that question in an unbiased way. I don't believe abortion is the same as murder OR worse than murder. It's less. Much less. So why don't you try to rephrase your question.
 
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Phronesis

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You don't give enough options for anyone to answer that question in an unbiased way. I don't believe abortion is the same as murder OR worse than murder. It's less. Much less. So why don't you try to rephrase your question.

Your answer is satisfactory, this thread isn't meant to sway you into changing your opinion. You can (and did) answer "neither" and that's OK.


My purpose of this thread was to explore the logical ends of viewing abortion as murder; oobviously if you don't see it that way then this conversation isn't going to be productive for you.
 
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