Male / Female Friendships

Paidiske

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Just to clarify, you saying your friendship with this particular man is ok because he is an open homosexual friend of yours who is a sexual deviant?

I'm saying that a greater level of closeness with this friend in particular is ok because there is no temptation to a sexual relationship between us. I made no comment on his sex life, nor do I feel the need to, except to note that a person without sound sexual and relationship ethics is unlikely to earn my respect enough for such a friendship to be possible.
 
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I will never risk my marriage; the family unit for my child. What result is possibly worth that risk? It seems to me, something rings true with you about this, but you're not quite sure how to deal with it. The fact is, people cheat, and that possibility confronts every person alive. I'd like to know, where do you draw the line? Would you have dinner alone with a male workmate? Would you travel together to and from? How often would you deem appropriate? Would you hug on meeting? Would you talk about deep spiritual matters? Would you stay in the same room on a work trip?

And my longtime friendship with my female college friend does not in any way risk my relationship with my girlfriend (who may become my wife next year). As I said, there is no sexual interest between us. It does not bother my girlfriend that I have a female friend. She has a similar friendship with her brother-in-law (she is a widow) and that doesn't bother me at all. Why would it? And for the record we do hug each other upon meeting (but I do that with some of my male friends as well), we do occasionally have dinner alone (but I do that with some of my male friends as well), we do talk about deep spiritual matters (but I do that with some of my male friends as well). We would not stay in the same room on a work trip (but I do not do that with my male friends either--unless my girlfriend is with me I like having my own room).
 
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2Timothy2:15

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I'm saying that a greater level of closeness with this friend in particular is ok because there is no temptation to a sexual relationship between us. I made no comment on his sex life, nor do I feel the need to, except to note that a person without sound sexual and relationship ethics is unlikely to earn my respect enough for such a friendship to be possible.

You said he was a committed gay....so you did unless you were talking about another friend?
 
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Paidiske

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You said he was a committed gay....so you did unless you were talking about another friend?

I'm describing whom he is attracted to, and making no comment on what he does. These are two separate issues. Most people are not able to change whom they find attractive, but are still able to make ethical choices about how they act (or not) on that attraction.
 
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I'm saying that a greater level of closeness with this friend in particular is ok because there is no temptation to a sexual relationship between us.

Yes, a greater level of closeness must be avoided with any person who is a potential partner, this is my point all along.

And my longtime friendship with my female college friend does not in any way risk my relationship with my girlfriend

Why do arranged marriages work? Because we can develop feelings with anyone of the gender we are attracted to. Emotional and spiritual bonds are the fuel for the sexual fire. In my opinion, it is a dishonor to the girl to have her as a close friend with no potential further relationship. I predict she will remain single for a long time. I encourage you to focus on your wife, and distance yourself from your friend. You need to either tell your female friend that you have found the girl you will commit to, and that your time needs to be invested there; therefore your friendship will lose it's closeness; or you need to just distance yourself and let her figure it out herself. The second option is preferred in my opinion because the first actually deepens the friendship, which is exactly what you don't want.

As I said, there is no sexual interest between us.

You can never be sure what is going on in her though.

She has a similar friendship with her brother-in-law (she is a widow) and that doesn't bother me at all. Why would it?

Because you care about her and want to ensure she's safe from any unnecessary temptations; however, if you don't change your own relationships, she is most definitely justified. Even if nothing changes you need to discuss these things with your partner to stay on the same page.

we do occasionally have dinner alone

This is dangerous in my opinion...

we do talk about deep spiritual matters

...especially when combined with this.

(but I do not do that with my male friends either--unless my girlfriend is with me I like having my own room)

But this would be fine to stay with male friends and not fine with female friends (close friends or strangers).
 
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Paidiske

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Yes, a greater level of closeness must be avoided with any person who is a potential partner, this is my point all along.

The difference between our positions, as far as I can tell, is that you want to set a rigid boundary of "no close friendship" and some of the rest of us think a greater degree of personal judgement on a case-by-case basis is sufficient.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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I'm describing whom he is attracted to, and making no comment on what he does. These are two separate issues. Most people are not able to change whom they find attractive, but are still able to make ethical choices about how they act (or not) on that attraction.

You were using your "gay" friend to substantiate your point about having opposite sex friendships. Then you said you didn't make a comment about his sexual preference. Um, kind of hard to separate that once you say he is a "committed gay". I am fairly certain we should not be yoked to people who live these types of lifestyles as the bible talks about it, let alone a "pastor".

I guess it's kind of hard to talk about painting the house when the entire foundation is shot.
 
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Paidiske

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You were using your "gay" friend to substantiate your point about having opposite sex friendships. Then you said you didn't make a comment about his sexual preference. Um, kind of hard to separate that once you say he is a "committed gay". I am fairly certain we should not be yoked to people who live these types of lifestyles as the bible talks about it, let alone a "pastor".

I guess it's kind of hard to talk about painting the house when the entire foundation is shot.

I said I made no comment on his behaviour, not his preference.

"these types of lifestyles" - you have no single, chaste friends of either orientation? You would feel that you should not?

I don't require my friends to be just like me, or to have only the struggles and burdens I have, before I deem them worthy of my friendship. If that's having a shot foundation, I'd rather live in this house than a narrow, judgemental one always looking for fault and viewing others with suspicion.
 
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The difference between our positions, as far as I can tell, is that you want to set a rigid boundary of "no close friendship" and some of the rest of us think a greater degree of personal judgement on a case-by-case basis is sufficient.

Yes, that is the difference, however you would also have clear boundaries for certain behaviours. And your example of a homosexual friend did not help your case. I was clearly talking about potential partners with regard to sexual orientation and you used this example as a "trick", an anomaly to show that there is a time to stay over at someones house of the opposite sex. But you would have boundaries also, for all people. What are these boundaries? Would you sleep over at a male friends house alone? (And, do I really have to specify non-homosexual? I would have thought that was obvious). Would you be happy for a man to tell you how beautiful you are and tell you all about what they love about you in a personal way, one on one? Or would you interrupt? Would you talk about your spouse? These are the kind of boundaries that need putting in place. But strong intimate friendships with the opposite sex are plain dangerous.

In the church I was raised in, a lady and man were close spiritually. Each were married to "less spiritually minded" spouses. These two, with a group of about 5 or 6 would come early to the church and pray together. Every now and then, they were the only ones to turn up. They would pray and talk alone. A few times it was just the three of us. I noticed the connection between them. It was obvious. Well, the mans wife ended up leaving him for another person in the church. And the ladies husband moved across state with her to save their marriage from this sabotage. Spiritual sabotage. Spiritual needs weren't being met at home, and they found their spiritual needs met in each other. And it caused absolute devastation to the mans familiy (2 children). If the man and lady had found spiritual connection with the same sex rather than with each other, the outcome could have been very different. If firm friendship boundaries were put in place, things wouldn't have turned out the way they did. It's more important than people realise. "She'll be right" is not safe-guarding family units.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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I said I made no comment on his behaviour, not his preference.

"these types of lifestyles" - you have no single, chaste friends of either orientation? You would feel that you should not?

I don't require my friends to be just like me, or to have only the struggles and burdens I have, before I deem them worthy of my friendship. If that's having a shot foundation, I'd rather live in this house than a narrow, judgemental one always looking for fault and viewing others with suspicion.


Preference, behavior, what is the difference really. Your doing some dance here with semantics now.

No I do not require my friends to be just like me but I do not yoke up with people who are not seeking the Lord (at many different levels). What friendship do we have with the world?

James 4:4King James Version (KJV)
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God

If someone does not want to be my friend because I do not want to remain silent to a blatant lifestyle then they are not my friend anyhow are they.

Proverbs 27:5 ESV
Better is open rebuke than hidden love

Surely I am friendly with people, often with the sole purpose of sharing the gospel with them. But there is a difference between being friendly and being yoked as friends.

I do not allow myself to be yoked with someone living a lifestyle blatant of sin (lest I fall in or become complicit). Certainly if I became aware of it I would warn them and give them the gospel or then it might be on me as being complicit it basically agreeing with them and their sinful lifestyle. More than likely that would naturally stop any friendship as people do not like to be told they are living in sin, especially those living in blatant sin. Like if I had a drunkard as a friend. I would tell him what he was doing was wrong and to repent and trust in the Lord. If he did, we now have something in common, not the same, but we have the Lord in common. If he did not, well then I could not continue to expose myself or my family to those sorts of things that comes along even spiritually...that would make me a bad shepherd over my family and the bible says to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. So you just turn a blind eye to his abominable lifestyle which the bible clearly states, continue your friendship as if there is not a 1000 pound elephant in the room and enable him to be in jeopardy of hell...that does not sound much like real friendship to me.


James 5:20King James Version (KJV)
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18King James Version (KJV)
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
 
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Yes, a greater level of closeness must be avoided with any person who is a potential partner, this is my point all along.

But the female friend I mentioned is not a potential partner.

Why do arranged marriages work? Because we can develop feelings with anyone of the gender we are attracted to. Emotional and spiritual bonds are the fuel for the sexual fire.

An arranged marriage would not work for me.

In my opinion, it is a dishonor to the girl to have her as a close friend with no potential further relationship. I predict she will remain single for a long time.

And you would be wrong. She has been happily married for at least 30 years.

I encourage you to focus on your wife, and distance yourself from your friend. You need to either tell your female friend that you have found the girl you will commit to, and that your time needs to be invested there; therefore your friendship will lose it's closeness; or you need to just distance yourself and let her figure it out herself.

No. Perhaps that is what you would need to do. It isn't what I need to do.

The second option is preferred in my opinion because the first actually deepens the friendship, which is exactly what you don't want.

We are already good friends. That isn't going to change.

You can never be sure what is going on in her though.

Sure I do. She is very devoted to her husband.

Because you care about her and want to ensure she's safe from any unnecessary temptations; however, if you don't change your own relationships, she is most definitely justified. Even if nothing changes you need to discuss these things with your partner to stay on the same page.

We are on the same page.

This is dangerous in my opinion...
.

Having lunch or dinner is dangerous? Hardly.

...especially when combined with this.

She is a minister. Why would we not discuss religious matters.

But this would be fine to stay with male friends and not fine with female friends (close friends or strangers).

No, I want my own room (unless traveling with my girlfriend.).

If it doesn't work for you to have friends of the opposite sex that is your call. But please don't tell me or others that it is wrong for us to have friends of the opposite sex.
 
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But the female friend I mentioned is not a potential partner.

Why?

An arranged marriage would not work for me.

Heh, you missed the point.

And you would be wrong. She has been happily married for at least 30 years.

? I assumed you were much younger but anyway, just looked at your profile, my apologies. So you're close friends with a married lady of similar age? As a general rule, this should be avoided, would you agree? Or do you think it is good if every married couple has close friends such as yourself?

YOU: No. Perhaps that is what you would need to do. It isn't what I need to do.

I hold to my advice and continue to encourage you in that direction.

YOU: Having lunch or dinner is dangerous? Hardly.

Would you encourage all people to have private dinners alone with people in their age bracket of the gender they are attracted to? Example: a 20 year old, newly married man, goes out alone to dinner with his high school female best friend every Tuesday night and they talk about anything and everything. Do you approve?

She is a minister. Why would we not discuss religious matters.

There are different ways of discussing religious matters, some ways lead to a certain type of intimacy more than others. We need to be aware. So what that she is a minister? All are ministers of the gospel who believe in Jesus; titles do not change the need for firm and clear relational boundaries.

If it doesn't work for you to have friends of the opposite sex that is your call. But please don't tell me or others that it is wrong for us to have friends of the opposite sex.

Yes, there is no rule for all; but wisdom speaks to all. There are certain situations I will never put myself in because of the potential harm it could bring to my family. I encourage you to do the same. While God is everything, we can still have a priority list: 1. God 2. Spouse 3. Children 4. Family 5. Friends.
 
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Paidiske

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Preference, behavior, what is the difference really. Your doing some dance here with semantics now.

Not at all.

A man who is a devoted Christian but finds himself attracted to other men, who chooses not to pursue those relationships but who lives chaste, is one thing. A man who shags any other attractive and willing man who crosses his field of vision is another.

You judge someone you do not know, about whom you only know what I have told you, as "not seeking the Lord," and yet I, his friend, know how very sincerely he is doing so. Hence, why he is someone whose friendship I value.

I think this is the fundamental disconnect here; some people view every situation and person with suspicion, and others choose not to. If I were to do so, I'd be both a very unloving human being and a very bad priest, so I find it better to try to interpret each person's actions and attitudes in the best light possible. That helps me in my seeking to love them as God loves them.

And that, ultimately, I think, is why I'm so reluctant to frame my decisions about all sorts of things - including friendships - in terms of catastrophising about what could go wrong. I don't know how to do that and still be loving rather than suspicious, judgemental and hateful.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Not at all.

A man who is a devoted Christian but finds himself attracted to other men, who chooses not to pursue those relationships but who lives chaste, is one thing. A man who shags any other attractive and willing man who crosses his field of vision is another.

You judge someone you do not know, about whom you only know what I have told you, as "not seeking the Lord," and yet I, his friend, know how very sincerely he is doing so. Hence, why he is someone whose friendship I value.

I think this is the fundamental disconnect here; some people view every situation and person with suspicion, and others choose not to. If I were to do so, I'd be both a very unloving human being and a very bad priest, so I find it better to try to interpret each person's actions and attitudes in the best light possible. That helps me in my seeking to love them as God loves them.

And that, ultimately, I think, is why I'm so reluctant to frame my decisions about all sorts of things - including friendships - in terms of catastrophising about what could go wrong. I don't know how to do thyoat and still be loving rather than suspicious, judgemental and hateful.


Hey, I am NOT judging anyone. There you go twisting this all again. You volunteered that your "friend" of the opposite sex was gay information to justify your position. Now you want to say I am "judging". Obviously he thinks he is gay is because he has done gay acts. If not then he needs to be delivered. There needs to be deliverance either way...if you cared about him you would tell him as much instead of coddling him...unreal
 
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2Timothy2:15

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If you're not judging anyone, what's the point of post #153?

Do you even understand what biblical judgement is?

Maybe you should pray about what the point of 153 is if it is not obvious to you.

Start by reading 1 Corinthians 5
 
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Already explained.

Heh, you missed the point.

No, you said that arranged marriages work because people can develop feelings for anyone. I said that such a marriage would never work for me so no, I could not develop romantic feelings for just anyone.

I assumed you were much younger but anyway, just looked at your profile, my apologies. So you're close friends with a married lady of similar age? As a general rule, this should be avoided, would you agree? Or do you think it is good if every married couple has close friends such as yourself?

If you have read my earlier posts you know that I obviously do not feel that such friendships should be avoided. As for other married couples, that is up to them. Whatever makes them comfortable.

I hold to my advice and continue to encourage you in that direction.

No reason for me to follow your advice.

Would you encourage all people to have private dinners alone with people in their age bracket of the gender they are attracted to?

Throughout this thread I have said that i speak for myself. You are the one who is trying to tell others what they they should do, not me.

Example: a 20 year old, newly married man, goes out alone to dinner with his high school female best friend every Tuesday night and they talk about anything and everything. Do you approve?

Such a situation doesn't describe my situation. My friend lives several hours away. We don't have a date night as you are trying to describe.

There are different ways of discussing religious matters, some ways lead to a certain type of intimacy more than others. We need to be aware. So what that she is a minister? All are ministers of the gospel who believe in Jesus; titles do not change the need for firm and clear relational boundaries.

She has two graduate degrees in theology; there are matters I can discuss with her that I cannot discuss with other friends.

Yes, there is no rule for all; but wisdom speaks to all. There are certain situations I will never put myself in because of the potential harm it could bring to my family.

And you need to do what works for you, just as I should do what works for me.

I encourage you to do the same.

No.

While God is everything, we can still have a priority list: 1. God 2. Spouse 3. Children 4. Family 5. Friends.

Priorities would be a different discussion. We are simply discussing having close friends of the opposite sex.
 
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