Luke 21:20-24

[erickson]

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Can anyone point me to sources which teach that this is still future?

(It seems to be common for dispensationalists to think Luke 21:20-24 is about "AD70".)

 

[dan p]

Can anyone point me to sources which teach that this is still future?

(It seems to be common for dispensationalists to think Luke 21:20-24 is about "AD70".)

Hi , and Matt 24:15 is just one good place for you to start as it is yet Future .

This did not happen in 70 AD and only Preterist believe that , dan p

 

[ptomwebster]

Can anyone point me to sources which teach that this is still future?

(It seems to be common for dispensationalists to think Luke 21:20-24 is about "AD70".)

I don't know of any dispensationalist that believes Luke 21 happened in 70 AD

 

[erickson]

I don't know of any dispensationalist that believes Luke 21 happened in 70 AD

Great. Then it should be easy for you to name some sources which teach that Luke 21:20-24 is still future.

 

[dan p]

Great. Then it should be easy for you to name some sources which teach that Luke 21:20-24 is still future.

Hi , so why do you not believe Luke 21:20-24 !!

#1, Do you see armies compassing Jerusalem !!

#2 , Do you see , Desolation thereof is nigh , Matt 24:15 ??

You do not see that this is yet Future ??

dan p

 

[erickson]

You do not see that this is yet Future ??

dan p

This isn't a thread to debate the issue. It's a thread requesting that people provide sources.

Do you have any relevant sources that you can reference?

 

[dan p]

This isn't a thread to debate the issue. It's a thread requesting that people provide sources.

Do you have any relevant sources that you can reference?

Hi and one that I have is , is a " DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY " by Charles F Baker , Grace Bible College Publication , Grand Rapids , Michigan 49509 , dan p

 

[erickson]

Hi and one that I have is , is a " DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY " by Charles F Baker , Grace Bible College Publication , Grand Rapids , Michigan 49509 , dan p

OK, thank you.

 

[Hupomone10]

Great. Then it should be easy for you to name some sources which teach that Luke 21:20-24 is still future.

John MacArthur's commentary on Luke and companion passage Matthew 24 in his commentary on Matthew.

Dwight Pentecost's book "Things to Come."

J. Vernon McGee's "Thru the Bible," commentary on Luke (also Matthew).

"The End Times Controversy", Tim LaHaye and Thomas Ice

"The Bible Knowledge Commentary", book on Luke, Dallas Theological Seminary professors.

"Gaebelein's Concise Commentary on the Whole Bible", Arno C. Gaebelein.

"Systematic Theology", Lewis S. Chafer

"Major Bible Themes", Lewis S. Chafer

"The Words and Works of Jesus Christ", Dwight Pentecost

 

[Jig]

Can anyone point me to sources which teach that this is still future?

(It seems to be common for dispensationalists to think Luke 21:20-24 is about "AD70".)

This event is not still future.

Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, a prominent dispensationalist, writes:


Only after having spelled out clearly that the apostles would have to undergo a period of suffering as well as have a successful ministry did Yeshua go on to answer their first question concerning the sign of the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. The answer is recorded only by Luke in 21:20–24: But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

In answer to their first question, the Messiah gave them the sign that would mark the fact that Jerusalem was about to be destroyed. The sign was the surrounding of the City of Jerusalem by armies. The Jewish believers were told that, when they saw this sign, they were to leave Jerusalem and Judea and flee outside the Land. This sign would mark the coming desolation of Jerusalem and, from that point on, Jerusalem will be continually “trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

This prophecy was fulfilled in a very marvelous way. In the year A.D. 66, the first Jewish revolt broke out against the Romans. When the revolt first began, the Roman general in the Land, Cestus Gallus, came with his armies from Caesarea and surrounded Jerusalem. The surrounding of the city marked the sign that Jesus had promised, and the Jewish believers knew that Jerusalem would soon be destroyed. Jesus had commanded the Jewish believers to desert the city when they saw this happening. However, it was impossible to do so while the Romans were surrounding the city.

Then Cestus Gallus noticed that his supply lines were not secure. He did not have enough supplies to maintain an extended siege, so he lifted the siege of Jerusalem in order to go back to Caesarea. On the way, he was attacked by Jewish forces and killed. Temporarily, the city was no longer surrounded by the armies, so every single Jewish believer was able to leave Jerusalem. They crossed the Jordan River and set up a new community of Jewish believers in the town of Pella in the Transjordan. They were joined by Jewish believers from Judea, Galilee, and the Golan. There, they waited for the prophecy of Yeshua to be fulfilled.

In the year A.D. 68, a new Roman general by the name of Vespasian and his son, Titus, again besieged the city, and in the year A.D. 70, the city and the Temple were destroyed. Altogether, 1,100,000 Jews were killed in this final onslaught, but not one Jewish believer died because they obeyed the words of their Messiah. Since that time, Jerusalem has indeed been trodden down of the Gentiles and continues to be so to the present day. Jerusalem will not be free of Gentile nations treading upon her until the Messiah returns.

With these words, the Messiah answered their first question, the sign of the coming destruction of Jerusalem.

...

Having given an outline of things to come from their own day until the beginning of the Kingdom, the Messiah then presented an exhortation, recorded in Luke 21:28: But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draws nigh.

The exhortation is that when believers see these things begin to come to pass, then they are to look up—raise their heads—because it will mark the imminent redemption of the believers from this world. In Luke’s context, the expression these things refers back to Luke 21:20–24, which was the sign of the destruction of Jerusalem. Once Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70 that fulfilled every and any prophecy that had to be fulfilled before the Rapture. Once the city and the Temple were destroyed, it fulfilled the judgment for the unpardonable sin. Once that happened, it rendered the Rapture of the Church imminent. Imminency does not mean “soon.” It only means that it can now happen at any moment of time. It should be noted what Jesus did not say. He did not say that only when all these things have come to pass, then look up for your redemption draws nigh. He did not say we must wait until the end of the Tribulation before looking up. What He did say was, “When you see these things begin to come to pass, then look up, for your redemption draws nigh.” The beginning part was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Once the beginning had occurred, the Rapture became imminent.

Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, vol. 28, The Messianic Bible Study Collection (Tustin, Calif.: Ariel Ministries, 1983), 9-10, 15-16.

 

[erickson]

John MacArthur's commentary on Luke and companion passage Matthew 24 in his commentary on Matthew.

Dwight Pentecost's book "Things to Come."

J. Vernon McGee's "Thru the Bible," commentary on Luke (also Matthew).

"The End Times Controversy", Tim LaHaye and Thomas Ice

"The Bible Knowledge Commentary", book on Luke, Dallas Theological Seminary professors.

"Gaebelein's Concise Commentary on the Whole Bible", Arno C. Gaebelein.

"Systematic Theology", Lewis S. Chafer

"Major Bible Themes", Lewis S. Chafer

"The Words and Works of Jesus Christ", Dwight Pentecost

The one book you mentioned that I have, (end times controversy), it appears to teach the exact opposite. Thomas Ice teaches a first century fulfillment of the text in question. Different chapters have different authors in that work.

Can you give me a page number reference to support that?

 

[erickson]

Can you give me a page number reference to support that?

??

 

[erickson]

Hi and one that I have is , is a " DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY " by Charles F Baker , Grace Bible College Publication , Grand Rapids , Michigan 49509 , dan p

Can you give a page number and/or chapter?

 

[parousia70]

I'm Working on this question right now in Eschatology and via a google search I came upon this old thread and thought I'd Resurrect it to see if anyone new around here can offer up any sources?
Thx!

 

[random person]

Can anyone point me to sources which teach that this is still future?

(It seems to be common for dispensationalists to think Luke 21:20-24 is about "AD70".)

This passage is speaking about A.D. 70, I suggest reading the following passages too.

Luke 17:20-37
Luke 19:41-44
Luke 23:27-31

The Olivet Discourse and these passages are all speaking about A.D. 70

 

[PesachPup]

Can anyone point me to sources which teach that this is still future?

(It seems to be common for dispensationalists to think Luke 21:20-24 is about "AD70".)

I'll give you two scripture passages.
Isaiah 29:
*[[Isa 29:1]] KJV* Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.
*[[Isa 29:2]] KJV* Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.

[Here is a key verse] it literally means to circle round about, encompassed.

*[[Isa 29:3]] KJV* And I will CAMP against thee ROUND ABOUT, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
*[[Isa 29:4]] KJV* And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.
*[[Isa 29:5]] KJV* Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly. [Compare with a thief in the night, peace & safety]
*[[Isa 29:6]] KJV* Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
*[[Isa 29:7]] KJV* And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
I'll leave it to you to read the rest of this chapter and how it is reflected in Zechariah 14.

Secondly, Ezekiel 16. This will make a lot of sense if you can grasp that Jerusalem is portrayed there as playing the harlot with God's love for her and that she is indeed the great city, mystery, Babylon [woman] that is riding the beast in Rev. 17.

*[[Eze 16:35]] KJV* Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:
*[[Eze 16:36]] KJV* Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;
*[[Eze 16:37]] KJV* Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even GATHER them ROUND ABOUT against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness...
*[[Eze 16:41]] KJV* And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.

*[[Rev 17:16]] KJV* And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

These passages make the point that God will bring Jerusalem's harlot lovers will be gathered against her in judgment. These 10 nations, the 10 toes of Daniel 7, Rev. 13, will be compassed about her, when they launch their attack, unexpectedly.
Blessings
The PuP

 

[parousia70]

These passages make the point that God will bring Jerusalem's harlot lovers will be gathered against her in judgment. These 10 nations, the 10 toes of Daniel 7, Rev. 13, will be compassed about her, when they launch their attack, unexpectedly.
Blessings
The PuP

So you believe this will all happen to Jerusalem...again?

 

[PesachPup]

So you believe this will all happen to Jerusalem...again?

Again, no. It is totally unfulfilled. Rome, in her destruction of Jerusalem, did not constitute Israel's harlot lovers. God will purge Israel of her idolatrous ways.
Blessings
The PuP

 

[parousia70]

Hi , and Matt 24:15 is just one good place for you to start as it is yet Future .

This did not happen in 70 AD and only Preterist believe that , dan p

Youi do realize that MOST futurists over the past 2000 years believed and taught that Matt 24 was fulfilled in 70AD... pushing its fulfimment out to our future is a relatively new, novel approach, not even 200 years old.

Now, Matt 24:15 that you cite was most certainly fulfilled in the apostles generation:

Matt 24:15-20 -- Christ tells of His nation's Great Tribulation (cf. Luke 21:20-23). The famous historic account of the exodus of the Jerusalem Church in AD 66-67 is recorded by Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History, iii.v.). The Judean remnant saw the armies of Cestius Gallus in 66AD surrounding Jerusalem (and Vespasian's shortly thereafter; compare to the parallel account in Luke 21:20-24). At the same time, The Temple was captured by the Jewish Zealots as Paul had foretold (2 Thess 2:4-7). Messiah-King Menahem and the Zealots turned the temple into a military outpost, defiled it with murderous blood, and made evil of their own high priest while launching the Great Revolt. During this time, the daily sacrifices offered to Rome were ended, which was a declaration of war against the Roman Empire. These events signaled the faithful Jewish remnant to flee according to our Lord's commands to them in Matthew 24:16-20 and Luke 21:20:23. Just after they escaped the city, the Zealots seized the city, guarded the gates, and prevented all escape. Eusebius writes, "But the members of the Church in Jerusalem, having been commanded before the war in accordance with a certain oracle given by revelation to the men of repute there to depart from Jerusalem and to inhabit a certain city of Peraea called Pella, all the believers in Christ in Jerusalem went thither; and when now the saints had abandoned both the royal metropolis itself and the whole land of Judaea, the vengeance of God finally overtook the lawless persecutors of Christ and His apostles." At the end of the great tribulation the Romans made sacrifices to their standards at the Temple (Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).

Matt 24:21-24 -- Jesus tells more about Israel's Great Tribulation (also: Luke 21:20-24; Josephus, Wars of the Jews, entire). The Roman Jewish war is the documented history of the Great Tribulation. Josephus declares that the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all ever heard of" (see: Matthew 24:21). Josephus writes, "the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of" (Wars of the Jews, preface, section 1; Wars, 5:10:5). Jesus calls this time the "Days of Vengeance" (Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2/Jer 46:10; Matt 23:31-38; Luke 19:40-44; Matt 21:40-22:7), and "wrath and distress upon this people" (Luke 21:23; see also Josephus, Wars, 2:10:1; 2:22:1; 6:3:3-4; 6:9:2-4; 7:1:1). Lakes of blood and fires (Wars, 2:18: 4:5:1; 5:1:2-5; 6:4:6; 6:5:1,2; 6:8:5). Jerusalem divided into three (Rev 16:19; see also Wars, 5:1:1,4). Genealogical records destroyed (Wars, 6:6:3; 6:9:1). God took the Kingdom away from them (Matt 21:40-45; see also Josephus, Wars, 6:8:4:; 6:9:1,4). Jerusalem called "That Great City" and "Sodom" (Rev 11:8; Rev 18:21-24; see also Josephus, Wars, 5:10:5; 5:13:6; 7:8:7). Jews sold into slavery (Luke 21:24; see also Josephus, Wars, preface, section 11; Wars 6:8:2; 6:9:2-4). City of Jerusalem is leveled (Matt 24:2 and Luke 19:40-44; see also Josephus, Wars, 7:1:1; 7:8:7). Jesus warns his generation: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of gehenna? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate (Matt 23:33-38).

Matt 24:25 -- Jesus explicitly tells the apostles that these dire events will be experienced by them (as also in Matt 24:33-34). They will be the generation to see these things Jesus is describing come to pass (not some distant future generation). By comparing Matt 24:25 with similar statements in John 14:28, John 13:19 and John 16:4, we see that they all signal events in the apostles' near future. Christ always told his apostles things they would need to know beforehand, that it could be to their benefit when the things came to pass before their eyes.

Matt 24:26-28 -- Jesus forewarns them not to follow false messianic movements in the desert or in the Temple chambers, which had precise first-century relevance for them (Antiquities of the Jews, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). The desolation is like lightning over the whole land from east to west, and where the carcasses are strewn, there will be the Roman Eagles (i.e, the infamous Eagle Ensigns of the Roman armies that were planted all over Jerusalem during the Roman Jewish war). The Roman eagle ensigns served as a symbol of the Jews' defeat at the hand of their enemies. Most commentators believe this war and passage also was the fulfillment of Moses' predictions in Deuteronomy 28:49 and the verses following. All this came to pass in 66-70AD (see also: Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).

Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs. This passage hinges upon the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, David, etc. in exactly the same way they used such language for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times. Compare Christ's words with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11), God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). So, in like manner, Jesus Christ is now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5). Jesus came to first-century Israel and demolished it in the same glory as the Father's cloud-comings in the OT era (cf. Isaiah 19:1-2). Thus, this passage speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah. This particular "coming" of Christ is signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Many cosmic signs were also witnessed in that period: the angels, voices, and glorious brightness of God are witnessed at the temple and around Jerusalem as recorded in Josephus, Tacitus, and the Midrash (Josephus, Wars, 6:5:3; 2:22:1-2; 4:4:5; 6:5:2-3; Tacitus, Histories, v. 13; Midrash, Lam 2:11). All torah-observing, Messiah-rejecting Jews were gathered into Jerusalem from all over the world at Passover Feast in 67AD and were shut in by the Zealot and Roman armies. Now, locked in the giant furnace of the city, millions were destroyed (see: Matt 13:40-43, Luke 19:40-44, Matt 23:33-38, Luke 23:28-31; Matt 21:40-45). It is no surprise that rabbis today call 70AD the "end of biblical Judaism." Indeed, the faithful and newly consummated Church-bride was gathered and spared God's desolations and wrath. The Church-nation of Christ, thus fully built and established, is never to be destroyed. The Church becomes the eternal Temple and Priesthood of God (2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:9). Christianity emerges distinct from Judaism and becomes the universal and one true Faith of the Living God and the Holy Nation. Christ's followers were destined to occupy all nations to gather the elect from all peoples into Abraham's blessing (Gal 3:7-9.14,16,26-29; Gen 12:1-3). The teachings and prophecies of Christ and the apostles are fully and historically vindicated by this historic destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 66-70.

Matt 24:32-33 -- Jesus gives a parable about trees and their seasons (Luke 21:29-31). The shooting forth of leaves signals that summer is now near at hand. Jesus applies this natural phenomenon to his apostles and the season of the end of the age: "So likewise you too [the apostles], when you shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the door" (cf. James 5:8-9; Rev 3:20). In Luke's account, Christ's promise to the apostles is as follows: "So also you, when you see these things come to pass know that the kingdom of God is near at hand" (Lk 21:31).

Matt 24:33-34 -- In this passage, the climax of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus promises his apostles that they will see all these signs come to pass in their generation: "So likewise you, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

 

[parousia70]

Again, no. It is totally unfulfilled. Rome, in her destruction of Jerusalem, did not constitute Israel's harlot lovers. God will purge Israel of her idolatrous ways.
Blessings
The PuP

Of Course Rome did.
Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Pet 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Rev 17:16; Lk.21:20).

Sadly, the "great city," Jerusalem (Rev 11:8), had fallen, and had become the habitation of demons and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (Rev 18:2). The Queen City Jerusalem (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1), which had been great among the nations (Lam 1:1), had become a widow (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1). And She, having become an unfaithful Harlot to God, was thus "burned with fire" (Rev 18:8/17:16) as her covenant law demanded for her (Lev 21:9). The blood of all the apostles and prophets who she famously killed (Matt 23:33-36; Matt 21:34-39; Lk 13:33; Acts 7:52; 1 Thess 2:15-16; Lk 11:47; Neh 9:26; 1 Ki 19:14) was avenged upon her (Matt 23:33-37; Rev 16:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16).

Entirely Fulfilled.

Now if you wish to make a case that this will happen to Jerusalem AGAIN, go right ahead.