Loving God and your neighbor

[pescador]

I am resigning as an elder of a "non-denominational" church. The reason that "non-denominational" is in quotes is that , IMHO, it is becoming a denomination where differing views (such as mine) are considered an attack on the pastor.

The conflict began over the wording on the web site and in the brochure that says that 1) we preach the Gospel and "we're not trying to be "culturally relevant" or "politically correct" and 2) "you're welcome if you're earnestly seeking Jesus Christ and don't have an ulterior motive."


I have pointed out that these are code words against minorities (natural and spiritual) and project a politically conservative, discriminatory viewpoint inconsistent with the Gospel. They were added by the pastor immediately after the Supreme Court decision that gave same-sex spouses the same federal benefits as different-sex spouses. (In theory anyway.) I also said that there shouldn't be any "if" concerning who is welcome in our church. Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners even though he was criticized by the Pharisees for associating with them.


Now, when the church is re-branding to attract more people, the pastor and other elders won't consider deleting these messages, insisting that the Gospel is under attack from a world that is going increasingly satanic. Rather than advancing the kingdom the emphasis is on "circle the wagons".


I asked God for advice about the situation and this is what happened...


Last night I had a dream where God (or an angel?) spoke to me and said "get up and read the parable of the good Samaritan". I immediately woke up and opened my (NET) bible. Under the heading of "The Parable of the Good Samaritan" it begins...


"Now an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you understand it?” The expert answered, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.” Jesus said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.” [emphasis mine of course].


You can read the rest of the parable in Luke 10 yourself. The point is that a church that loves God only and preaches faith and grace to believers (but not love to everyone) is missing the truth. If the love of other people is not there then the church is self-righteous and not following Jesus' example.


The (religious) priest and (religious) Levite avoided the man but the (despised) Samaritan not only helped the man that had been abused, but made sure that he would be taken care of in his absence. What about those in our society that have been abused? Do we examine them (LGBTs, immigrants, homeless, victims of discrimination and/or violence, and others) to see if they meet our standards before we extend God's mercy to them? Do we exclude others from our churches because they don't meet our standards of righteousness? We must love God and our neighbor.


As I said in the beginning I am resigning as an elder since the leadership won't budge from their self-righteous, exclusionary attitude. I would appreciate your thoughts on the situation.

 

[BryanW92]

You should definitely leave. I left the UMC for similar, but opposite, reasons. There's a gazillion churches in the US. There's no reason to stay at one that has different core beliefs than you do. It's not a scriptural approach, but it is a pragmatic one and one church does not own God. He is revealing himself to different people in this age in different ways.

 

[Steeno7]

I am resigning as an elder of a "non-denominational" church. The reason that "non-denominational" is in quotes is that , IMHO, it is becoming a denomination where differing views (such as mine) are considered an attack on the pastor.

The conflict began over the wording on the web site and in the brochure that says that 1) we preach the Gospel and "we're not trying to be "culturally relevant" or "politically correct" and 2) "you're welcome if you're earnestly seeking Jesus Christ and don't have an ulterior motive."

I have pointed out that these are code words against minorities (natural and spiritual) and project a politically conservative, discriminatory viewpoint inconsistent with the Gospel. They were added by the pastor immediately after the Supreme Court decision that gave same-sex spouses the same federal benefits as different-sex spouses. (In theory anyway.) I also said that there shouldn't be any "if" concerning who is welcome in our church. Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners even though he was criticized by the Pharisees for associating with them.

Now, when the church is re-branding to attract more people, the pastor and other elders won't consider deleting these messages, insisting that the Gospel is under attack from a world that is going increasingly satanic. Rather than advancing the kingdom the emphasis is on "circle the wagons".

I asked God for advice about the situation and this is what happened...

Last night I had a dream where God (or an angel?) spoke to me and said "get up and read the parable of the good Samaritan". I immediately woke up and opened my (NET) bible. Under the heading of "The Parable of the Good Samaritan" it begins...

"Now an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you understand it?” The expert answered, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.” Jesus said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.” [emphasis mine of course].

You can read the rest of the parable in Luke 10 yourself. The point is that a church that loves God only and preaches faith and grace to believers (but not love to everyone) is missing the truth. If the love of other people is not there then the church is self-righteous and not following Jesus' example.

The (religious) priest and (religious) Levite avoided the man but the (despised) Samaritan not only helped the man that had been abused, but made sure that he would be taken care of in his absence. What about those in our society that have been abused? Do we examine them (LGBTs, immigrants, homeless, victims of discrimination and/or violence, and others) to see if they meet our standards before we extend God's mercy to them? Do we exclude others from our churches because they don't meet our standards of righteousness? We must love God and our neighbor.

As I said in the beginning I am resigning as an elder since the leadership won't budge from their self-righteous, exclusionary attitude. I would appreciate your thoughts on the situation.

So, IOW, the conservative viewpoint is inconsistent with the Gospel and self-righteous, while your liberal viewpoint is consistent with the Gospel and is righteous? Is that about it?

The Presbyterian Church USA will take you in with open arms and they are welcome to you.

 

[pescador]

So, IOW, the conservative viewpoint is inconsistent with the Gospel and self-righteous, while your liberal viewpoint is consistent with the Gospel and is righteous? Is that about it?

The Presbyterian Church USA will take you in with open arms and they are welcome to you.

Jesus said "Come to me all you who are burdened and I will give you rest." That doesn't mean only those who are "acceptable". The most despised people of Jesus' time followed him, listened to him, and were healed by him.


Can you show me where the conservative viewpoint of exclusion is consistent with the Gospel?

 

[Steeno7]

Jesus said "Come to me all you who are burdened and I will give you rest." That doesn't mean only those who are "acceptable". The most despised people of Jesus' time followed him, listened to him, and were healed by him.

Can you show me where the conservative viewpoint of exclusion is consistent with the Gospel?

I see no exclusion in those statements of those who are "burdened". Only of those with ulterior motives and those who are more concerned with being politically correct than they are with truth. IOW, you. So, those statements serve the good purpose they were intended to.

 

[pescador]

I see no exclusion in those statements of those who are "burdened". Only of those with ulterior motives and those who are more concerned with being politically correct than they are with truth. IOW, you. So, those statements serve the good purpose they were intended to.

So you're saying that if somebody comes to a church with an "ulterior motive" (as though that can be determined in advance) then they should be excluded? Should people of color, LGBTs, the homeless, and others that aren't "acceptable" be excluded? Are WASPs the only ones who are acceptable in the kingdom?


The truth is that God loves the world and we are told to love our enemies (if they truly are our enemies). Hatred, even subtle hatred, is contrary to the Gospel. Period.

Our purpose is not to change the world but to offer an alternative -- the kingdom of God. Jesus said not to pull up the weeds but to let them grow along with the wheat in the same field until the harvest at the end of the age. What do you think loving your neighbor means? Loving those who are just like you? "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. "If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same."

Matthew 25: 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separatethe people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[Steeno7]

So you're saying that if somebody comes to a church with an "ulterior motive" (as though that can be determined in advance) then they should be excluded? Should people of color, LGBTs, the homeless, and others that aren't "acceptable" be excluded? Are WASPs the only ones who are acceptable in the kingdom?


The truth is that God loves the world and we are told to love our enemies (if they truly are our enemies). Hatred, even subtle hatred, is contrary to the Gospel. Period.

You want the church to be the way you want it to be, based on your own hatred and prejudices, that is an ulterior motive. You want a church that mimics society, that follows the world and accepts as truth what the world has determined truth to be. That is being politically correct.

It is not all those you have listed that are excluded, it is those like yourself, who value political correctness above truth and who seek to pervert the gospel with a perverted view of what love is.

What they are doing is exactly what the church is instructed to do in 2 John 1:10-11. We are not to allow those into our fellowships, our churches, who would attempt to sway the brethren from the truth with unsound doctrines, false teachings. Nor are we to encourage such a person by befriending them, nor are we to give them further opportunity for deception by remaining. To do so would be to make ourselves complicit in their evil doings.

 

[peterandrewj]

I am resigning as an elder of a "non-denominational" church.

The conflict began over the wording on the web site and in the brochure that says that 1) we preach the Gospel and "we're not trying to be "culturally relevant" or "politically correct" and 2) "you're welcome if you're earnestly seeking Jesus Christ and don't have an ulterior motive."


I have pointed out that these are code words against minorities (natural and spiritual) and project a politically conservative, discriminatory viewpoint inconsistent with the Gospel. They were added by the pastor immediately after the Supreme Court decision that gave same-sex spouses the same federal benefits as different-sex spouses. (In theory anyway.) I also said that there shouldn't be any "if" concerning who is welcome in our church. Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners even though he was criticized by the Pharisees for associating with them.

I would appreciate your thoughts on the situation.

Mercy triumphs over judgment, and blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy.

Your love is refreshing. I think you are completely on point doctrinally, and works reflect the spirit of Christ. However, unless they are coming against the way God is leading you, being a hindrance to your walk, I would not leave; such as if they require you to love with partiality, then that's a problem.

Do not be a partaker of other men's sins.

Peace be with you.

---------------------

BTW, Jesus told some of his followers that hypocrites sit in Moses' seat. His counsel was simply to not do as they do, for they say and do not.

It's harder to remain because it will be work for you to find peace in their midst, but its possible.

 

[BryanW92]

Jesus said "Come to me all you who are burdened and I will give you rest."

A person who is bursting with gay PRIDE is not "burdened". They have chosen to not only sin, but to take their identity from it. How can Jesus give them rest when they hold their sin up as a banner of PRIDE instead of repenting as a burdened person would do.

 

[peterandrewj]

A person who is bursting with gay PRIDE is not "burdened". They have chosen to not only sin, but to take their identity from it. How can Jesus give them rest when they hold their sin up as a banner of PRIDE instead of repenting as a burdened person would do.

Lucky for you they're not interested in attending your church. But if they ever have an interest in Jesus and visit your church, you'd be the unlucky one to not speak peace to them.

 

[pescador]

You want the church to be the way you want it to be, based on your own hatred and prejudices, that is an ulterior motive. You want a church that mimics society, that follows the world and accepts as truth what the world has determined truth to be. That is being politically correct.

It is not all those you have listed that are excluded, it is those like yourself, who value political correctness above truth and who seek to pervert the gospel with a perverted view of what love is.

What they are doing is exactly what the church is instructed to do in 2 John 1:10-11. We are not to allow those into our fellowships, our churches, who would attempt to sway the brethren from the truth with unsound doctrines, false teachings. Nor are we to encourage such a person by befriending them, nor are we to give them further opportunity for deception by remaining. To do so would be to make ourselves complicit in their evil doings.

I'm always amused when people take a verse or two out of context to prove their own doctrine. Here is what it says in 2 John, in context...


7 I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.


This is about people who deny Christ, not about loving your neighbor. Suppose a person is gay and acknowledges that Jesus has come in the flesh. According to John this doesn't apply to them, unless you're saying that LGBTs are the antichrist, which is about as screwed up as you can get. The truth, in case you missed it (which apparently you have), is that the body of Christ is for everyone except perhaps those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It says everywhere that God loves the world and that Christ died for everyone. Whoever believes that Jesus is the Messiah has everlasting life.


I'm holding up your own words as a spiritual mirror: "You want the church to be the way you want it to be, based on your own hatred and prejudices." Unlike you, I don't hate nor am I prejudiced.


You also said "You want a church that mimics society, that follows the world and accepts as truth what the world has determined truth to be. That is being politically correct." It's obvious to me that you have no understanding at all of what "politically correct" means. It means that you don't offend somebody by smearing them with some label of your own but accept their own definition of who they are. I won't mention some of the terms used to describe people of color, Latinos, LGBTs, and others because they are arrogant and cruel. The Pharisees criticized Jesus for hanging out with the most despised people of his time, whom I sure you would say shouldn't be allowed in your church.


God is love. I think it's time that you realized that.


1 John 4...


19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

 

[Steeno7]

I'm always amused when people take a verse or two out of context to prove their own doctrine. Here is what it says in 2 John, in context...


7 I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.


This is about people who deny Christ, not about loving your neighbor. Suppose a person is gay and acknowledges that Jesus has come in the flesh. According to John this doesn't apply to them, unless you're saying that LGBTs are the antichrist, which is about as screwed up as you can get. The truth, in case you missed it (which apparently you have), is that the body of Christ is for everyone except perhaps those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It says everywhere that God loves the world and that Christ died for everyone. Whoever believes that Jesus is the Messiah has everlasting life.


I'm holding up your own words as a spiritual mirror: "You want the church to be the way you want it to be, based on your own hatred and prejudices." Unlike you, I don't hate nor am I prejudiced.


You also said "You want a church that mimics society, that follows the world and accepts as truth what the world has determined truth to be. That is being politically correct." It's obvious to me that you have no understanding at all of what "politically correct" means. It means that you don't offend somebody by smearing them with some label of your own but accept their own definition of who they are. I won't mention some of the terms used to describe people of color, Latinos, LGBTs, and others because they are arrogant and cruel. The Pharisees criticized Jesus for hanging out with the most despised people of his time, whom I sure you would say shouldn't be allowed in your church.


God is love. I think it's time that you realized that.


1 John 4...


19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

You're hatred of conservatives is palpable.

You think love is making others ‘feel’ okay about themselves by condoning and encouraging them in their sinful behaviors. That is a perverted view of love. Sin is bondage. To condone and encourage others in their sin is not to love them, it is to condemn them to a life of bondage.

You succeed only in making them feel okay with their sin, even worse, making them feel that their sin is actually godly behavior, and pleasing to God. People are not set free by lies, they are set free by truth. I can hardly think of a more cruel and unloving thing to do to another person. Especially for a ‘Christian’ to do to another.

It is not people coming to church for truth who are the problem. It's people coming to give the church "their" truth who are the problem. It doesn't matter what a persons perceived sexuality is, or their race, or gender or nationality. If they are trying to introduce false teachings, like yourself, the church has an obligation to protect it's members from such.

 

[pescador]

You're hatred of conservatives is palpable.

You think love is making others ‘feel’ okay about themselves by condoning and encouraging them in their sinful behaviors. That is a perverted view of love. Sin is bondage. To condone and encourage others in their sin is not to love them, it is to condemn them to a life of bondage.

You succeed only in making them feel okay with their sin, even worse, making them feel that their sin is actually godly behavior, and pleasing to God. People are not set free by lies, they are set free by truth. I can hardly think of a more cruel and unloving thing to do to another person. Especially for a ‘Christian’ to do to another.

It is not people coming to church for truth who are the problem. It's people coming to give the church "their" truth who are the problem. It doesn't matter what a persons perceived sexuality is, or their race, or gender or nationality. If they are trying to introduce false teachings, like yourself, the church has an obligation to protect it's members from such.

You are crazy! I feel so sorry for you. Really, really sorry. It's because of people like you that I'm leaving my church. Thanks for the confirmation that I'm doing the right thing.

 

[Steeno7]

You are crazy! I feel so sorry for you. Really, really sorry. It's because of people like you that I'm leaving my church. Thanks for the confirmation that I'm doing the right thing.

Like I said the PCUSA will gladly take you in, and they are welcome to you.

 

[BryanW92]

You're hatred of conservatives is palpable.

You think love is making others ‘feel’ okay about themselves by condoning and encouraging them in their sinful behaviors. That is a perverted view of love. Sin is bondage. To condone and encourage others in their sin is not to love them, it is to condemn them to a life of bondage.

You succeed only in making them feel okay with their sin, even worse, making them feel that their sin is actually godly behavior, and pleasing to God. People are not set free by lies, they are set free by truth. I can hardly think of a more cruel and unloving thing to do to another person. Especially for a ‘Christian’ to do to another.

It is not people coming to church for truth who are the problem. It's people coming to give the church "their" truth who are the problem. It doesn't matter what a persons perceived sexuality is, or their race, or gender or nationality. If they are trying to introduce false teachings, like yourself, the church has an obligation to protect it's members from such.

Amen to that!

 

[pescador]

Amen to that!

You are also crazy.