Love and faith

[Gregory the NonTheologian]

Here's the thing we are saved by Grace through faith right?

But our faith is in Christ, not in the fact that we are saved. And if we have faith in Christ, then we will do what He has commanded us to do (viz Luke 6:46). Furthermore, when we have done the things He has told us to do, we are to expect nothing in return:
[VERSE=Luke 17:10, KJV]So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/VERSE]

Our faith cannot be a quid pro quo, for then our faith is not faith in Christ, but rather faith in a transaction.

 

[Hospes]

But our faith is in Christ, not in the fact that we are saved. And if we have faith in Christ, then we will do what He has commanded us to do (viz Luke 6:46). Furthermore, when we have done the things He has told us to do, we are to expect nothing in return:
[VERSE=Luke 17:10, KJV]So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/VERSE]

Our faith cannot be a quid pro quo, for then our faith is not faith in Christ, but rather faith in a transaction.

You're right about it not being a transaction or quid pro quo, but God does use unmerited reward as a means to motivate us to do good.

 

[Gregory the NonTheologian]

You're right about it not being a transaction or quid pro quo, but God does use unmerited reward as a means to motivate us to do good.

"Unmerited reward" sounds like an oxymoron to me. Is not a reward something that is given in recognition of some service, effort, or achievement (cf. Concise Oxford English Dictionary)? Is there some other definition that applies here?

 

[SeventyTimes7]

Revelation 22:14-16
14 Blessed are those who do his commandments that their power and authority might be in the tree of life and they may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 But outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify unto you these things in the congregations

These verses don't need other words cause are Jesus's words

 

[Hospes]

"Unmerited reward" sounds like an oxymoron to me. Is not a reward something that is given in recognition of some service, effort, or achievement (cf. Concise Oxford English Dictionary)? Is there some other definition that applies here?

It is a bit of an awkward phrase, but what I am trying to name is what C. S. Lewis called the "unblushing promises of reward...promised in the Gospels." Throughout the scriptures God holds up for attainment incredibly marvelous "stuff" for those who love him. Call these offers whatever, nonetheless they saturate the good news of Jesus Christ. A fuller quote of Lewis may be helpful:

Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem our Lord finds our desires [for reward] not too strong, but too week. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling around with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased. (C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory)​

 

[Gregory the NonTheologian]

It is a bit of an awkward phrase, but what I am trying to name is what C. S. Lewis called the "unblushing promises of reward...promised in the Gospels." Throughout the scriptures God holds up for attainment incredibly marvelous "stuff" for those who love him. Call these offers whatever, nonetheless they saturate the good news of Jesus Christ. A fuller quote of Lewis may be helpful:

Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem our Lord finds our desires [for reward] not too strong, but too week. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling around with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased. (C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory)​

Yes, I think C.S. Lewis gets closer to the truth. It is not so much the fact that God "motivates" us with the promise of a reward, but rather that the reward is always there waiting for us to take it.

 

[Hospes]

Yes, I think C.S. Lewis gets closer to the truth. It is not so much the fact that God "motivates" us with the promise of a reward, but rather that the reward is always there waiting for us to take it.

Why would God hold out such great rewards if we are not to desire, i.e. motivated toward it?

 

[hedrick]

I would argue that faith is the way we live when we love God and neighbor. Jesus and Paul both emphasize internal change and motivation. Jesus’ whole way of interpreting the Law shows that, as does Paul’s complex attitude towards the Law.

Jesus uses several different terms to refer to this primary redirection of a person: repentance, and being a follower are both common. But at the deepest level he sees these things as coming from love of God and neighbor.

Rather than talking about being a follower, Paul typically speaks of being “in Christ.” The same thing, presumably, if we don’t want to isolate Paul and Jesus from each other. The key personal characteristic of a person who is in Christ is, for Paul, faith. As with Jesus, it is ultimately based on love.

I think it’s a mistake to separate all of these things. Making the two perspectives match depends upon seeing faith not as an intellectual belief but as trust in God. In fact, the Reformers had just such an understanding of faith. This is the same thing as being his follower (Jesus’ terminology), both motivated by loving him, which is of course the proper response to his fatherly love of us.

I would say that Protestant theology at times overemphasizes faith, in the sense that it takes that one term and makes it the only thing that matters, rather than seeing it in this whole context. We also have a tendency at times to separate it from action, when Jesus is very clear that our faith is shown by, and will be judged by, how we live.

 

[com7fy8]

Yes, there is "faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6).

If you have faith in someone, you trust the person, and with this you can also love the person.

I think faith can mean our spiritual connection with God > 1 Corinthians 6:17 > and in this connection we are effected by His love (1 John 4:17, Romans 5:5). So, our spiritual connection with God works by means of His love curing our nature.

 

[ToBeLoved]

"But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love. "

- I don't get it, I have Lutheran* background and for Lutheran Christians, what matters is faith. They teach justification by faith, not justification by love. In other words, the message is "Faith is the greatest virtue in the eyes of God, it decides your eternity". It doesn't add up with what Paul wrote.

- If love is the greatest in the eyes of God, even greater than faith, then why Christianity as a religion is defined by statements of faith, not by statements of love?

- Why peoples confessions of faith are used to determine are they Christians or not, if love matters more in the eyes of God?

- Is it possible to define organized religion in terms of love? Is putting love above faith compatible with concept of organized religion?


* I'm using Lutheranism as an example, because I have experience with it. It could be any other denomination which believes in justification by faith.

Well this is actually not a hard concept. So let me know if I don't explain it enough.

Justification happens once.

Justification is when we are spiritually born-again and Jesus wipes away all of our sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. So we are NOT re-justified in CHrist over and over. It happens once.

After we have been justified by the blood of Jesus Christ, we are made righteous by Him (Justification) and given the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit to indwell us.

Now after we have been born again, we are becoming sanctified which is life long. It is as we turn from sin and walk with Christ that we would become more Christ-like and less like we were before.

So the verse

"But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love. "

is after we have been justified by the blood of Jesus Christ and born again.

What does Jesus say the two most important commandments are? The two that fulfill all of the law?

Then it makes sense.

 

[dcalling]

Faith without love is useless. The Israelies went out of Egypt, seen the power of God first hand, they might have strong faith, but without the love, all their understanding became how to obey the law but not what God really wants. For example they have great faith in God, went to great length to the point of not eating cheese and meat on the same plate, but if there is no love, it is meaningless. "First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them"--though they were offered in accordance with the law." Hebrews 10:8

As above, organized religions means nothing if there is no love inside.

"But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love. "

- I don't get it, I have Lutheran* background and for Lutheran Christians, what matters is faith. They teach justification by faith, not justification by love. In other words, the message is "Faith is the greatest virtue in the eyes of God, it decides your eternity". It doesn't add up with what Paul wrote.

- If love is the greatest in the eyes of God, even greater than faith, then why Christianity as a religion is defined by statements of faith, not by statements of love?

- Why peoples confessions of faith are used to determine are they Christians or not, if love matters more in the eyes of God?

- Is it possible to define organized religion in terms of love? Is putting love above faith compatible with concept of organized religion?


* I'm using Lutheranism as an example, because I have experience with it. It could be any other denomination which believes in justification by faith.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I would say that Protestant theology at times overemphasizes faith, in the sense that it takes that one term and makes it the only thing that matters, rather than seeing it in this whole context. We also have a tendency at times to separate it from action, when Jesus is very clear that our faith is shown by, and will be judged by, how we live.

Since we are saved by grace through our faith, I don't think that one can over emphasize faith.

What happens when you start putting everything together is that nothing is clear on it's own.

Love is what changes the heart.

Faith is what get's you to love.

Christ is what get's you to heaven, through faith.