Love and faith

Jack of Spades

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"But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love. "

- I don't get it, I have Lutheran* background and for Lutheran Christians, what matters is faith. They teach justification by faith, not justification by love. In other words, the message is "Faith is the greatest virtue in the eyes of God, it decides your eternity". It doesn't add up with what Paul wrote.

- If love is the greatest in the eyes of God, even greater than faith, then why Christianity as a religion is defined by statements of faith, not by statements of love?

- Why peoples confessions of faith are used to determine are they Christians or not, if love matters more in the eyes of God?

- Is it possible to define organized religion in terms of love? Is putting love above faith compatible with concept of organized religion?


* I'm using Lutheranism as an example, because I have experience with it. It could be any other denomination which believes in justification by faith.
 
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Hospes

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Good question.

I'm not completely clear on how faith and love are connected, but the following verses indicate they are:

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
Ephesians 3:17
...so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
1 Thessalonians 5:8
But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
1 Timothy 1:5
The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
I've never figured out what people mean exactly by "organized religion". (As opposed to disorganized religion?) I seems to be more of a way to express disdain for what a person doesn't like than to carry any real clear definition. Anyway, due to not understanding the definition, it's hard to discuss it. Maybe you could talk about a specific of what you call organized religion?
 
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Soyeong

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"But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love. "

- I don't get it, I have Lutheran* background and for Lutheran Christians, what matters is faith. They teach justification by faith, not justification by love. In other words, the message is "Faith is the greatest virtue in the eyes of God, it decides your eternity". It doesn't add up with what Paul wrote.

- If love is the greatest in the eyes of God, even greater than faith, then why Christianity as a religion is defined by statements of faith, not by statements of love?

- Why peoples confessions of faith are used to determine are they Christians or not, if love matters more in the eyes of God?

- Is it possible to define organized religion in terms of love? Is putting love above faith compatible with concept of organized religion?


* I'm using Lutheranism as an example, because I have experience with it. It could be any other denomination which believes in justification by faith.


I think love is greater than faith because the point of faith is to lead to love. In other words, God's commands are all about how to love Him and how to love others, so if you trust God to lead you in the right way to live, then you will obey His commands. I don't see any reason why this would be incompatible with organized religion.
 
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paul1149

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"But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love. "

- I don't get it, I have Lutheran* background and for Lutheran Christians, what matters is faith. They teach justification by faith, not justification by love. In other words, the message is "Faith is the greatest virtue in the eyes of God, it decides your eternity". It doesn't add up with what Paul wrote.

- If love is the greatest in the eyes of God, even greater than faith, then why Christianity as a religion is defined by statements of faith, not by statements of love?

- Why peoples confessions of faith are used to determine are they Christians or not, if love matters more in the eyes of God?

- Is it possible to define organized religion in terms of love? Is putting love above faith compatible with concept of organized religion?
Excellent observations and questions. I think the answer is manifold, but there is one root to the whole problem. The hebrew concept of knowledge wasn't compartmentalized, it involved the whole man. For the ancient hebrew, knowledge was yada, which ultimately implied oneness ("In addition to the essentially cognitive knowing already presented, this verb has a purely experiential side. The "knower" has actual involvement with or in the object of the knowing" - Vine's). The greek analog of yada in the Septuagint is ginosko, which is a knowledge so intimate it invokes the sexual union between man and woman. It is the word we derive gynecology from.

However the greek culture, which dominated the West at the time of Christianity's birth, exalted head knowledge. Luke writes in Acts that the men of Athens liked nothing better than to sit around and talk about novel ideas. Head knowledge was the coin of the realm, and to a great extent it took over the church.

There is a need to define the content of the faith. Heretics like Marcion arose soon after the birth of the church and had to be defined and warned against. Quite a bit of Paul's letters are devoted to defining the faith and guarding against error. We're never going to escape this on this side. And when we focus on "love" without adequately defining it, we quickly get into trouble. (See the current controversy about acceptance of homosexuality, which is roiling the church.)

But it's very easy to get so caught up in the intellectual aspects of faith that we forget its goal, the very union that we have with Father through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. When we do this, we end up devoid of Spirit and in rancor and division.

The history of Christianity, at least its headlines, is writ too large in this regard, and many have come to see it is a serious error. Many have realized they must put Jesus first and doctrinalism later. There is, of course, a time and place for correction, even strong correction. Jesus himself did so. But we have to rely on the Spirit to discern when that time is, or we will end up with a faith focused on doctrine, while we go around wounding people's souls.

In truth, faith feeds love, and love feeds faith, in the same way that faith and works feed each other when understood correctly. But ultimately we will have no need for faith, because we will "know in full" (Paul uses the heightened form, epiginosko).

Your criticism is valid, and points to a need for correction in our perceptions and vision.
 
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toLiJC

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"But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love. "

- I don't get it, I have Lutheran* background and for Lutheran Christians, what matters is faith. They teach justification by faith, not justification by love. In other words, the message is "Faith is the greatest virtue in the eyes of God, it decides your eternity". It doesn't add up with what Paul wrote.

- If love is the greatest in the eyes of God, even greater than faith, then why Christianity as a religion is defined by statements of faith, not by statements of love?

- Why peoples confessions of faith are used to determine are they Christians or not, if love matters more in the eyes of God?

- Is it possible to define organized religion in terms of love? Is putting love above faith compatible with concept of organized religion?


* I'm using Lutheranism as an example, because I have experience with it. It could be any other denomination which believes in justification by faith.

to be honest, it is typical of the the system of human religion to place faith uppermost, while it is quite comprehensibly written God is love and the right faith is the one that is based on show of love for the neighbour, so the love is actually the very faith i.e. the faithfulness to the pure and perfect love:

1 John 5:9-15 "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him."

the name of God/Christ is His righteousness, and His righteousness is His love for all human and other besouled beings to provide them with abundant and everlasting life

Blessings
 
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2PhiloVoid

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"But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love. "

- I don't get it, I have Lutheran* background and for Lutheran Christians, what matters is faith. They teach justification by faith, not justification by love. In other words, the message is "Faith is the greatest virtue in the eyes of God, it decides your eternity". It doesn't add up with what Paul wrote.

- If love is the greatest in the eyes of God, even greater than faith, then why Christianity as a religion is defined by statements of faith, not by statements of love?

- Why peoples confessions of faith are used to determine are they Christians or not, if love matters more in the eyes of God?

- Is it possible to define organized religion in terms of love? Is putting love above faith compatible with concept of organized religion?


* I'm using Lutheranism as an example, because I have experience with it. It could be any other denomination which believes in justification by faith.

Hello Jack,

If we take what Paul was saying in context, then what he was likely wanting Christians to understand is that love is the ultimate goal of the Christian life, that is, the fulfillment of love of God and neighbor. Faith is 'supposed' to get you there, and faith grows out of the initial hope we are given by coming to know Jesus Christ.

Peace
2PhiloVoid
 
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Hospes

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I think love is greater than faith because the point of faith is to lead to love. In other words, God's commands are all about how to love Him and how to love others, so if you trust God to lead you in the right way to live, then you will obey His commands. I don't see any reason why this would be incompatible with organized religion.
Love is greater than faith, but it's kind of like saying water is greater than food; both are necessary for survival.
 
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Jack of Spades

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I don't see any reason why this would be incompatible with organized religion.

Organized religion needs specific theological beliefs, and if someone doesn't believe those, the person is not considered to be a real believer. However, person with heretic or even totally different religious beliefs, might be very loving person.

Is it consistent in such situation to say that such person is totally lost with their relationship with God and at the same time, say that love matters more than faith? In my opinion it isn't, but I'm open for possible different explanations, that's why I'm asking it.

It can also be put other way around, someone having perfectly orthodox views while not being very kind towards others. I don't mean them being serial killers or anything evil, just less loving in everyday life. I think in context of organized religion defined by statements of faith, such person is more likely to be considered to be a "real believer" than someone who's other way around, bit of a heretic but a loving person.
 
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ALoveDivine

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Love is the fruit of faith. Authentic faith manifests itself in love for God and people. If you have a faith that does not bring forth the fruit of love, it is not a saving faith. There is a huge difference between intellectual assent, and faith. Faith is a deep trust and commitment. If you trust and are committed to your spouse, will you cheat on her or will you love her? It is the same with God. If you trust and are committed to God, you will love him. We are not saved by a moment of "faith", or intellectual assent to doctrines, but by a lifetime of faith. Faithfulness would be another way of stating it.

Marriage is actually a very good analogy. Consider faith in Christ as a marriage to Christ. You are choosing to commit yourself to him until the day you die, and you are choosing to love him and be faithful to him, which means abandoning sin, the indulgence in which would constitute spiritual adultery. Yet Christ will never 'divorce' you, even when are spiritually adulterous he will forgive you if you repent and the relationship will be reconciled. But you CAN divorce Christ of your own free will, and choose to love sin rather than Christ. In such a case the relationship is dissolved, and the salvation that comes with it is forfeited.

The just shall live by faith, and in Romans Paul opens by saying he is sent to proclaim the obedience of faith to all nations. Faith is the root, love is the fruit. And as James says, faith without works is a dead faith.
 
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Hospes

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I get it! Non-organized religion (NOR) are all the people believing that no one needs to believe what NORs believe. So, if I do think something is universally true, does that mean I can't join the NORs who believe what they believe doesn't necessarily have to be believed? :)
 
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Jack of Spades

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I get it! Non-organized religion (NOR) are all the people believing that no one needs to believe what NORs believe. So, if I do think something is universally true, does that mean I can't join the NORs who believe what they believe doesn't necessarily have to be believed? :)


It's problematic to answer the question because you can't join any non-existent organization, so therefore if I answered as it is "No, you can't join it", it would give an impression that the joining is possible for someone in first place. So, I'm going to answer that you are correct in part that you can't join NOR, but it's not because of your beliefs, but because it isn't possible for anyone to join something that isn't organized. That is, unless "joining" is understood figuratively to mean something else than signing in for official membership but since you didn't define it that way, I assume you mean actual joining.

Likewise, I can't join "People who spontaneously laugh sometimes" (PWSLS), but that doesn't mean I can't laugh spontaneously sometimes if I happen to feel amused. Trying to organize people who sometimes laugh spontaneously, in name of promoting laughing and fun, into one organization which is the organization of all such people would very likely create need for further definitions to separate the PWSLS people and the rest. And if this definition became over time very complex and exclusive, the very act of organizing the PWSLS could easily turn against the original purpose of laughing and having fun.
 
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SeventyTimes7

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"But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love. "

- I don't get it, I have Lutheran* background and for Lutheran Christians, what matters is faith. They teach justification by faith, not justification by love. In other words, the message is "Faith is the greatest virtue in the eyes of God, it decides your eternity". It doesn't add up with what Paul wrote.

- If love is the greatest in the eyes of God, even greater than faith, then why Christianity as a religion is defined by statements of faith, not by statements of love?

- Why peoples confessions of faith are used to determine are they Christians or not, if love matters more in the eyes of God?

- Is it possible to define organized religion in terms of love? Is putting love above faith compatible with concept of organized religion?


* I'm using Lutheranism as an example, because I have experience with it. It could be any other denomination which believes in justification by faith.
Hi bro,
I am a "self-taught" christian without a dennomination.
Well my view is which love is the fulfilment of God commandments (You shall not kill, shall not rob, shall not commit adultery..etc.), cause we demonstrate love only through observing the commandments, and our good works are the fruit of observing the commandments because, differently, if we kill we have no love for the neighbour, if we follow other gods we have no love for God, etc. (bad woks) (1 John 5:1-3)
Faith is our trust in the promises, and it is measured with love (works)
And Hope is the fuel of faith, Hope is the patience and perseverance, the long wait of the coming of Jesus the Messiah.

Obviously love is the most important because it's not only about thinking, like faith and hope but it's true and daily practice of God's Word, love is made of works and love leads to salvation.
(to understand the differences between love and faith read the whole chapter 2 of James).

James 2:20-26
20 But, O vain man, dost thou desire to know that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 Dost thou not see how the faith worked together with his works, and the faith was complete by the works?
23 And that the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness, and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 
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My thoughts on the really good points you raise

Faith is the greatest virtue in the eyes of God, it decides your eternity
The Gospels tell us that in order to inherit eternal life we must be non-possessive (Matthew 19:16-20; Mark 10:17-21; Luke 18:18-21), attend to those in need (Matthew 25:31-46), despise and forsake life in the world (Matthew 19:29; John 12:25), , believe in and follow Christ (John 3:14-15; 10:27-28), love God with our whole being and our neighbor as ourself (Luke 10:25-27), and partake of His flesh and blood (John 6:54).

If love is the greatest in the eyes of God, even greater than faith, then why Christianity as a religion is defined by statements of faith, not by statements of love?
I don't think we can define "Christianity" as a single, coherent religion, since the many "denominations" of Christianity all hold different beliefs and practices - some radically different.

Looking at the Church as it was described in the New Testament, is it correct to say that it was defined by a statement of faith? In a sense, I suppose it was, since the Lord said that He would build His Church on the "rock" of Peter's confession that He was the Christ and Son of the Living God (Matthew 13:16-18). But in the sense I think you are expressing, would we not say that statements of faith are built on the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15), and not the other way around?

Why peoples confessions of faith are used to determine are they Christians or not, if love matters more in the eyes of God?

One thing that I think is overlooked in this discussion is the role that the Enemy plays in our struggles. If one accepts that the devil truly exists, and that all the demons in hell are determined to make us fail, then we must be very careful that we are not deceived, since we know that Satan himself can be transformed into an angel of light (2 Corinthian 11:14). If we are not grounded in the Truth - worshipping the true God in Sprit and Truth (John 4:23) - then we can be easily misled. I have actually read a neo-gnostic author suggest something more or less along the lines you are and end up arguing in her book that the commandment to love our neighbor as ourself was an exhortation not to decline requests for sex. This is an extreme case, perhaps (or perhaps not), but you can see my point, I think.

Just my private opinions. I am not a theologian.
 
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A greater Hope

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Good question.

I'm not completely clear on how faith and love are connected, but the following verses indicate they are:

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
Ephesians 3:17
...so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
1 Thessalonians 5:8
But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
1 Timothy 1:5
The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
I've never figured out what people mean exactly by "organized religion". (As opposed to disorganized religion?) I seems to be more of a way to express disdain for what a person doesn't like than to carry any real clear definition. Anyway, due to not understanding the definition, it's hard to discuss it. Maybe you could talk about a specific of what you call organized religion?
 
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A greater Hope

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For we know the script says faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen all of what we believe and hope for in Christ is not seen for they are Promised this we have faith/hope and by this we love him through faith and by this love brings obedience,
 
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98cwitr

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"But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love. "

- I don't get it, I have Lutheran* background and for Lutheran Christians, what matters is faith. They teach justification by faith, not justification by love. In other words, the message is "Faith is the greatest virtue in the eyes of God, it decides your eternity". It doesn't add up with what Paul wrote.

- If love is the greatest in the eyes of God, even greater than faith, then why Christianity as a religion is defined by statements of faith, not by statements of love?

- Why peoples confessions of faith are used to determine are they Christians or not, if love matters more in the eyes of God?

- Is it possible to define organized religion in terms of love? Is putting love above faith compatible with concept of organized religion?


* I'm using Lutheranism as an example, because I have experience with it. It could be any other denomination which believes in justification by faith.

Faith involves love. 1 John 4:19.
 
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