Loss of Salvation Question

[Thursday]

Grammatically incorrect.

Roberston notes, "And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pistiv (faith) (feminine) or to cariv (grace) (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dwron) and not the result of our work."

Paul tells us that a man reaps what he sows.

Do you believe this?

 

[fhansen]

But Paul goes on to indicate in Romans 3 that there is no one who is persistent in doing good. And so he presents the good new starting in Romans 3:21

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Rom 2:6 is referring the righteousness of the law, which is the same kind of righteousness advocated by those of the Neo-Circumcision, namely a performance based righteousness. Such people don't embrace the concept of the gospel of grace whereby one is justified by faith APART FROM WORKS. (Rom 4:4-8)

The "righteousness of God" is nothing less than authentic righteousness, which He infuses as He cleanses us, making us new creations. But He won't force us to retain or grow in that righteousness any more than He forced Adam to remain in his state of "original righteousness". Either way the righteousness is to come from God; it's not of our own, not by our own efforts. The work of God is ultimately to change us-and that change takes place to the extent that we're in-and remain in- communion with Him. That state of communion is our righteousness/justice. He is our strength, our refuge, our moral integrity, our justice. Creation, in any form, is absolutely lost without Him. In the case of man, we must willingly commune with God. That's what we're here to accomplish; that's what He works to draw us into, and to keep us there. But He won't force it.

 

[bcbsr]

Paul tells us that a man reaps what he sows.

Do you believe this?

If a person is in Christ, having the Holy Spirit, such people do not walk according to the flesh.

Rom 8:
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 ¶ And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors——not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

Those who walk according to the flesh are not sons of God. (Same as in 1John 3:9)

Unlike the Neo-Circumcision, those who are born of God are not subject to fear of condemnation. Those who are sons of God have eternal security.

 

[bcbsr]

The "righteousness of God" is nothing less than authentic righteousness, which He infuses as He cleanses us, making us new creations. But He won't force us to retain or grow in that righteousness any more than He forced Adam to remain in his state of "original righteousness". Either way the righteousness is to come from God; it's not of our own, not by our own efforts. The work of God is ultimately to change us-and that change takes place to the extent that we're in-and remain in- communion with Him. That state of communion is our righteousness/justice. He is our strength, our refuge, our moral integrity, our justice. Creation, in any form, is absolutely lost without Him. In the case of man, we must willingly commune with God. That's what we're here to accomplish; that's what He works to draw us into, and to keep us there. But He won't force it.

REALITY CHECK! Under Catholicism, which is your sect, a highly Neo-Circumcision sect, one must do the Catholic works laid out in Catholic Canon Law to be saved, which is practically identical to the proposition of the sect of the Circumcision.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eph 2:8
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

Correct. Why would anyone think I don't fully accept this?

 

[FreeGrace2]

My view:
We will judged for our actions on earth. Those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life.

Scriptural view:
Romans 2
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

I wish those who read Rom 2:6-8 would keep reading in Romans, to get the full story.

Paul was quite clear about the fact that there is "NONE THAT DOES GOOD" (3:12), that "all are under sin" (3:9) and that "all fall short of the glory of God" (3:23).

3:10 says there are NONE RIGHTEOUS.

So one might want to re-examine their understanding of 2:6-8.

It should be obvious that "doing good" would be found in keeping the Law. Yet, Paul then wrote this:
"because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:20

So, what Paul was teaching in 2:6-8 is that NO ONE is capable of "persistence in doing good, and therefore receiving eternal life.

The ONLY WAY anyone will receive eternal life is through faith in Christ.

That's WHY Christ died for the sins of the world. To purchase the free gift (towards man) of eternal life, which is given on the basis of faith.

Those who think they can be good enough to receive eternal life will find themselves in the lake of fire:
"And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:15

 

[DingDing]

Grammatically incorrect.

Roberston notes, "And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pistiv (faith) (feminine) or to cariv (grace) (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dwron) and not the result of our work."

This is correct; the neuter cannot grammatically refer to faith or grace (which are both feminine). And since the neuter is the proper gender to use when referring to an entire phrase, the grammatically correct interpretation is that the the gift of God is that salvation is by faith. Eph. 2:8 therefore is not a proof-text for the claim that God gives men the faith to believe. All the text says is that God's gift is that salvation is by faith. The test does not say that faith itself is the gift.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thursday said: ↑
Are you saying that you never sin?

Again, I am saying that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Seems his answer is "no".

Apparently this verse has missed his notice:
"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
1 John 1:8

 

[FreeGrace2]

What has been born can die.

Not those who have been born AGAIN. Why not? Because being born again means having eternal life.

If words mean anything, it should be clear that what is ETERNAL cannot die.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Grace is the gift.

Nope. Salvation is the gift. Just as Rom 6:23 teaches that eternal life is the gift of God.

 

[fhansen]

REALITY CHECK! Under Catholicism, which is your sect, a highly Neo-Circumcision sect, one must do the Catholic works laid out in Catholic Canon Law to be saved, which is practically identical to the proposition of the sect of the Circumcision.

"Neo-Circumcision sect", eh? The CC has always taught that man is obligated to obedience-and that the Old Covenant, for example, has never been revoked but rather replaced with a new and better one. The difference between the two is precisely in how obedience is to be realized-either by our own, futile efforts-by the Letter-or by God dwelling in us-by the Spirit-the law being fulfilled as we're transformed into beings who love, as He does, as He is.

That's a work of God's -and the only right and authentic way for man to be justified.

 

[DingDing]

Nope. Salvation is the gift. Just as Rom 6:23 teaches that eternal life is the gift of God.

Sorry, but the Greek does not back you up. Keep your head in the sand if you want.

 

[DingDing]

Not those who have been born AGAIN. Why not? Because being born again means having eternal life.

If words mean anything, it should be clear that what is ETERNAL cannot die.

Sorry, but only God is eternal. If one becomes cut-off from God...

 

[bcbsr]

Thursday said: ↑
Are you saying that you never sin?

Seems his answer is "no".

Apparently this verse has missed his notice:
"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
1 John 1:8

Funny. I simply quote what the apostle John says and then you quote John alleging that John contradicts John. Your argument is not with me but with the apostle John.

 

[Winken]

Thank you, though I am still not exactly sure what you think the source of all of our disagreement is.



God will not ever pardon us if we don't forgive others, so it seems straightforward to me that that is an unpardonable sin, but that is a conditional statement, so it is not a sin that we have to continue committing. In other words I understand being in an unpardonable state as not something that is permanent, but rather as a state from which we can't be pardoned from as long as we are in it. This also seems to me more consistent with what is said about repentance elsewhere in Scripture, such as 1 John 1:9. However, even if I am wrong about this distinction, I don't see how anything else that I've said is based on this particular point or how it could be the source of all of our disagreement.



If you break down what it means to confess Jesus as Savior and what he is saving us from doing, then I think we're both saying similar things. You can not confess Jesus as Savior from our sins and be in a state of unrepentance from our sins and unforgiveness.

The thread centers around OSAS vs. LOS. It seems that "God will not ever pardon us" blocks any hope of OSAS. "Unpardonable" can never be "conditional" in scripture. A pardon sanitizes the record, criminally speaking. Maybe I'm not understanding your comment.

 

[Thursday]

If a person is in Christ, having the Holy Spirit, such people do not walk according to the flesh.

Rom 8:
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 ¶ And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors——not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

Those who walk according to the flesh are not sons of God. (Same as in 1John 3:9)

Unlike the Neo-Circumcision, those who are born of God are not subject to fear of condemnation. Those who are sons of God have eternal security.

Paul is speaking in the present tense, IF YOU ARE IN CHRIST...

How is it that the love of Christ remains in us and we in him?

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

1 John 2:3
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.

This is a state that can change:

1 Tim 1:19
Cling to your faith in Christ, and keep your conscience clear. For some people have deliberately violated their consciences; as a result, their faith has been shipwrecked.

 

[Thursday]

REALITY CHECK! Under Catholicism, which is your sect, a highly Neo-Circumcision sect, one must do the Catholic works laid out in Catholic Canon Law to be saved, which is practically identical to the proposition of the sect of the Circumcision.

You know little to nothing about Catholicism.

From the Catechism:

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

 

[Thursday]

Nope. Salvation is the gift. Just as Rom 6:23 teaches that eternal life is the gift of God.

Everything is a gift from God. The question is, how to we attain eternal life?

Phil 3
. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.



12Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.16Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

 

[Soyeong]

The thread centers around OSAS vs. LOS. It seems that "God will not ever pardon us" blocks any hope of OSAS. "Unpardonable" can never be "conditional" in scripture. A pardon sanitizes the record, criminally speaking. Maybe I'm not understanding your comment.

To try to put it a different way, I don't think it is a particular action that is unpardonable, but rather it is a certain condition of the heart. It is having a hard heart that leads someone to refuse to repent and to refuse to forgive others. We can not be pardoned while we have a hard heart, but we can still be given a new heart of flesh.

 

[EmSw]

But Paul goes on to indicate in Romans 3 that there is no one who is persistent in doing good. And so he presents the good new starting in Romans 3:21

Paul did NOT say 'persistent' in doing good; you have added this yourself to the word of God.

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Paul took 'none that do good' from Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1, which is talking about fools who had said there is no God, not everyone.

Rom 2:6 is referring the righteousness of the law, which is the same kind of righteousness advocated by those of the Neo-Circumcision, namely a performance based righteousness. Such people don't embrace the concept of the gospel of grace whereby one is justified by faith APART FROM WORKS. (Rom 4:4-8)

Oh, you must mean the righteousness of David -

2 Samuel 22
21 The Lord rewarded me according to MY righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.
22 For I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
23 For all his judgments were before me: and as for his statutes, I did not depart from them.
24 I was also upright before him, and have kept myself from mine iniquity.
25 Therefore the Lord hath recompensed me according to MY righteousness; according to my cleanness in his eye sight.

1 Kings 3:6
And Solomon said, Thou hast shewed unto thy servant David my father great mercy, according as he walked before thee in truth, and in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with thee;

Psalm 7:8
The Lord shall judge the people: judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.

Or perhaps you mean the righteousness of Jews who do not do wickedness -

1 Kings 8:32
Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.

Or perhaps you mean Job's righteousness -

Job 27:6
My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

Maybe you mean those who are blessed -

Psalm 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Or maybe you mean those whom God meets -

Isaiah 64:5
Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

Shoot, maybe you mean those who deliver their own souls -

Ezekiel 14:20
Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

I even found the righteous who have turned away from their righteousness and die -

Ezekiel 18:26
When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

And then I found Zachariah and Elisabeth who were rightous -

Luke 1:6
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Are you going to tell us now that the Old Testament is not for Christians?